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January 14, 2011 at 8:02 am #597629
dobroParticipantI’m just starting another post to see if I can find the answer to a couple of questions but first let’s list a few things I think we can agree on…
1- violence is a bad thing and the only person physically responsible for the shootings in AZ is the mentally ill dude with the gun.
2- we don’t know at this point what his political leanings are or if he even has any. Since Rep. Louie Gohmert says he’s obviously a liberal and many commenters have assumed he’s a right winger based on the same evidence, I’d say we don’t know the answer to that.
3- people should take personal responsibility for their words and deeds.
4-hate speech and violent partisan rhetoric do exist.
So, my questions… does hate speech and violent partisan rhetoric have an effect on people? If so, how much? Is there a line somewhere that can be crossed regarding its legality? How about its morality?
If someone commits this type of act, do they have any personal responsibility for any consequences that may come of it? If so, how would they be held responsible? If not, why not?
If I had a radio or TV show and frequently identified people that I thought should be killed, but I never used that particular word but instead made up code words that I knew some people would understand, would I have any culpability if one or more of those people I categorized were indeed killed? Any legal or moral responsibility?
That’s enough for now.
January 14, 2011 at 7:38 pm #714142
DPMemberGood questions all, db. I find the way you’re framing this to be much more interesting than other variants of this topic, which seem to be getting . . . well . . . pretty convoluted.
In answer to your queries, I think that:
1) Yes, we do bear some personal responsibility for the hate speech we create or contribute to.
But, having said that, the further the “hate” part of our speech gets distorted (against our wishes or reasonable intent) as it passes down the line from Web page to psycho killer, the less responsibility we bear, proportionally.
While we should be conscious of how our words might be misread or misused by others, and we while should avoid being reckless with our speech, we should not stifle our opinions on that account.
Concrete example: In retrospect Sarah P. should not have used the “crosshairs” on her site. Bullseyes? Mmmm . . . maybe. I guess it’s on her to find a safer way to say the same thing.
Like I said in another post, it’s not so much that what she did was inherently bad or dumb. It’s the context that made it that way. As a politician, she is somewhat more responsible than the average Jill for reading her audience carefully.
2) There’s no legal way to punish most of the kinds of “hate speech” we’ve been discussing on this forum. Nor should there be. There is still another way to do it though — and perhaps a better one at that. It’s called peer pressure.
3) If you had a radio show where you used code words to get people whacked? Hmm. I still don’t think there’s a legal way to prevent you from doing that if you’re very careful about whom you associate with.
There are people who do things like just what you’re describing. They tend not to be careful about their associations, however, and eventually the FBI catches them on tape, chatting it up with guys named “Sammy the Bull” and “Vinnie the Chin.”
Then they go bye-bye for a long time.
Or, occasionally, they just get a friendly visit by some guys from another radio station.
If you know what I mean . . .
January 14, 2011 at 7:52 pm #714143
JoBParticipantdobro…
you pose good questions..
so good that i am going to go away and think a bit before i post answers…
January 14, 2011 at 9:45 pm #714144
DPMemberi am going to go away and think a bit before I post answers
Pssssst!
dobro!
C’mere! (Over here.)
I have a proposition for you . . .
January 15, 2011 at 12:25 am #714145
JoBParticipantJanuary 15, 2011 at 5:00 am #714146
JoBParticipantDobro…
the more i thought about your questions the more difficult they became to answer.
What do I believe?
I believe that healthy individuals are often as affected by hate speech as the unbalanced even though they are less likely to act on their feelings.
I believe that hate speech makes all of us less sensitive to the humanity of the strangers we pass on the street.. or sit near on a bus… or…
and that being less sensitive to the humanity of others dehumanizes us as well as the them.
I believe that those who choose hate speech do have a personal responsibility towards the actions of those they influence with their speech…
as do those who choose to listen.
My gut response tells me that these are moral issues to me.
but then we cross the line into the realm of legality and my clarity vanishes.
Your legal questions filter down to one single question for me…
At what point does the right to free speech supersede the public’s right to safety?
And i find i can’t answer that.
I never thought i would have to answer that question here …
I certainly wouldn’t have had to in the world i grew up in…
It’s not as though that world was a better place ..
discrimination of all kinds was not only socially acceptable but institutionalized
not a good trade off for a strong sense of civility
but i keep asking myself if this trade-off was essential to exposing discrimination
and i can’t answer that question either.
I remember the hate speech of the 60s…
from both sides…
and as much as i fought against hate speech and the violence it engendered then
i can see now that it may have been necessary to open the social conversation that has helped topple most legal discrimination.
Most…
It is still legal to enforce existing laws that discriminate against women…
or to pass new discriminatory laws for that matter…
and will be until the ERA is ratified:(
Yet…
something feels very different about the way hate speech is being institutionalized right now…
I think we are going to be forced to confront this question head on…and it won’t be a simple task.
i can’t find any easy answers that don’t compromise the integrity of the one freedom i think is essential to a democracy..
free speech.
i fear those with far less integrity than I will take advantage of the reticence of people like me to encroach on our basic freedoms to promote increasing violence and the resulting backlash..
some form of marshall law that suspends our individual freedoms..
all in the name of homeland security :(
But i am still clueless when it comes to crafting a solution :(
thanks for making me think.
these were very good questions.
January 15, 2011 at 5:10 am #714147
JoBParticipantDobro…
i would further enlarge this question by posing another…
is it true that we have become a nation with two differing moral standards?
January 15, 2011 at 6:57 am #714148
HMC RichParticipantGood Post Dobro.
January 16, 2011 at 9:17 pm #714149
miwsParticipant**Note: I am posting this before having read any other comments. I wanted my brain to have a “clean slate”, and not have my opinion be clouded by other opinions.**
”.. does hate speech and violent partisan rhetoric have an effect on people? If so, how much? Is there a line somewhere that can be crossed regarding its legality? How about its morality”
First of all, I obviously am not an expert, or even educated, in the Mental Health field. That said, I can see how it very well could.
If the person is unstable to begin with, and has a preconceived notion that whatever political wing, ethnicity, religious belief/disbelief is wrong, or evil, I believe there can be an effect.
It seems logical, that having that seed in their brain, and having it watered and fertilized as often as on a daily basis by somebody blustering on Talk Radio, or TV, that their hate could be re-enforced and fester to the extent of pushing them over the edge. So, what the “blusterer” may have said figuratively, ie: “shoot them down”, this person is going to take literally
As far as crossing the line legally? That’s probably a bit subjective. Political beliefs aside, people are going to have different ideas of where that line is. I may give a more thorough opinion on that later, after some more thought, but that’s my initial reaction.
As far as a moral standpoint? Again, I suppose that’s subjective, but I think it’s incumbent upon those of us that find it offensive to speak out. (And that’s something I need to work on, that’s why I’m starting speak out a little bit more on these Forums).
I’d be willing to bet that most, if not all of the ‘blusterers” are smart enough to know that their rhetoric could push an unstable person over the edge, but they don’t care. They’re just trying to get as many of the “Average Joes” riled up against whatever the “blusterer” is against, as they can, and it’s probably mostly done for ratings, hence a fatter (already bulging) wallet, to boost their ego, and to be a distraction from the real issues that have the biggest effect on our lives.
”If someone commits this type of act, do they have any personal responsibility for any consequences that may come of it? If so, how would they be held responsible? If not, why not?”
Legally, no. First Amendment.
Morally? Hell yes.
As far as being held responsible, of course people can’t be held legally responsible for their morality, or lack thereof. But, I think they can be “punished” by those that find their actions reprehensible, speaking out.
Then again, it often seems like a no-win situation. For example, Radio Guy Richard Cranium (RC) Blusterer is going to make an appearance at Tea Arena. Those that find his message offensive could organize, or simply show up on their own, to protest outside of the Arena.
Some may argue that such an action is going to get the guy more of the attention he craves. I believe that to be true to a certain extent. But, if the protesters just remained silent, their message doesn’t get out. It’s a tough call.
Another option is to boycott advertisers of the Radio Show, and let the advertisers, the Local Station, and any Network associated with the Show and/or Station know you are boycotting them, and why. I think that can be a highly effective solution, if the advertisers listen to the boycotters and start dropping their sponsorship, then great! However, if the advertiser believes strongly in RC Blusterers message, they’ll probably just tell the boycotters to screw off.
Besides just speaking out against RC in general, I would love to see public humiliation, if, with his huge ego that’s even possible. That may seem to be sinking down a bit to his level, but how do you get them to off of their high horse?
If RC’s ranting, having pushed someone over the edge could be made illegal, such as yelling “FIRE!” in a crowded theater, then I would like to see him punished as an accessory, much as the get-away driver in a bank robbery.
”If I had a radio or TV show and frequently identified people that I thought should be killed, but I never used that particular word but instead made up code words that I knew some people would understand, would I have any culpability if one or more of those people I categorized were indeed killed? Any legal or moral responsibility?”
Culpability? I would say yes. I think that a Prosecutor would have a hell of an uphill battle, though.
First off, the “code words” would have to be proven, which may be fairly simple, if it’s code that’s commonly known to a specific group. If it’s a more obscure code, it might be much more difficult to prove.
Now, if it could be proven code was being used, then yes, in my mind that shows intent on RC’s part, and although he may claim that he never outright intended for anyone to commit the act, I believe that he could be found guilty as at least an accomplice, or more directly involved, such as a person that hires a hitman.
As far as legal or moral responsibility? I’d probably answer that the same as I did above in the previous scenario.
Mike
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