Public Assembly

[miws]

….causes we detest like homosexual special privileges…..

Amidst all of your “wanting to share the love of Jesus Christ with the world” type posts, I was wondering how long it would take for a comment from you like this to “come out”.

Mike

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[JoB]

miws..

don’t you know..

some evangelicals believe that the love of Jesus Christ is only for the deserving…

selective reading will do that to you :(

Sydney..

me too.

i think i will go buy myself some…

that’s the republican way…

and just because i am a democrat doesn’t make everything they do wrong… does it?

what’s a girl to do when she wants to buy special privileges and both Full Tilt and Zippys are closed?

AARGH!!!…

i can go to the swinery..

i might even find chocolate there :))

if they’re closed…

there are still options…

that’s the benefit of living in King County

even if we only get 61 cents return on our tax dollar

there are definately advantages to living in this cesspool of liberal … ??? entrepreneurs ???

;-> ;->

****

you guys have fun now..

i really am off to see the wizard

there is a wizard isn’t there?

don’t you dare burst my bubble Sydney…

i know this isn’t portlandia

but i am sure i saw a wicked witch

and we have our own resident tin man

and a cowardly lion or two

so it must be OZ…

now where did i put those ruby red shoes?

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[dobro]

Redblack, you are on fire today! Fact after actual fact to refute mindless propaganda spew! Thanks, I can’t really stand to do that a lot of times myself, it feels like I’m hitting my head against a wall, but I certainly appreciate your perseverance.

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[redblack]

i also have a three-tier cake in the oven and i’m building a piano on my yacht while i wait for my government checks to come rolling in.

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[JoB]

the Koch brothers…

who they are and how they got that way…

from a source my non-progressive friends will never see..

http://thinkprogress.org/?p=146847

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[metrognome]

hmmm … has anyone else read MarkAngelo’s profile and noted that he lives in … West Seattle? … nope … Wisconsin? … nope … Chicago? yep. Now I suppose he could be a WS ex-pat; if he isn’t, why do you suppose he spends so much time on WSB trying to stir up trouble? Good thing I’m not paranoid and don’t see conspiracies everywhere or I would wonder …

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[redblack]

mg: and he’s a whittler!

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[JanS]

metrognme…I wondered that myself..just didn’t want to make this personal ;-)

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[HMC Rich]

Sydney, All movements start with people. So yes, if you want to get in bed with Mrs. Pelosi and call it Astroturf, so be it. The Democratic party is mostly in bed with the unions. The Tea Party Express travels all over the place. But many Republicans in Washington still are not playing ball with the Tea Party. Don’t get me wrong, many are or want to. Hence, cutting the budget a little. Or is that term foreign to you?

I guess all those people who were at Tea Party demonstrations are just Rich Racist White People who are dumb as hell. Maybe you don’t think that but your post about them isn’t the most positive either, but that is your opinion.

This fight over collective bargaining is quite a brouhaha. Some states do not have it. Virginia doesn’t and they have a surplus. Tell me why the union caved to the rank and file paying more in health care and lesser raises or no cola’s. Because all the bosses care about is power. Those dues help convince politicians. If they cared about their people they would have stood toe to toe about the wages and healthcare but they rolled over.

According to the Department of Education, 2/3’s of Wisconsin’s Eighth Graders are not proficient in reading. Wisconsin spends more than any other state on each pupil in the midwest. The system is not performing as good as it supposedly should. Here are three different links. First the Government rankings. http://scorecard.cfed.org/education.php?page=reading_proficiency_eighth_grade

These statistics are bothersome for most states.

Next is a right wing perspective: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g

Another bothersome note is that spending increased but did not help the scores.

Here is a left wing perspective disputing part of the above link: http://mediamatters.org/blog/201102220030

Media Matters did not address the increase in money per student.

Merit instead of Seniority should be factored in. In some places it is. Others not so much. I know of former Janitors that get the juicy overtime shifts in the state prison system, when the people who have been guards the whole time do not. But, unions are only as strong as their members. I have no problem with Private Unions. They are not being attacked in Wisconsin.

The unholy alliance between collective bargaining, PUBLIC unions, dues for Democrats and tenure needs to stop. It is not helping the children. It is not helping the tax payers.

Historically kids in the the Madison school system slipped through the cracks. My mother and I had to teach my sister to read in when she was in part of 2nd and 3rd grade in Madison. I flipping know how bad the educational system can be there. That was many years ago but the evidence from the DOE is damning, not only in Wisconsin but in most states.

Sydney, Please tell me how the John Birch Society started and who was John Birch. I think you will find it interesting. Reminiscent of Pat Tillman. (not that his family has any connection, but the government keeps covering things up even to this day.) Here is some help from their own site. http://www.jbs.org/john-birch

Here is the Wikipedia site. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

The context of the the article is in dispute. The Progressive would call the organization Radical. Others not so much.

The Koch industries dad was a Bircher. Now it is based in Wisconsin, the home of Progressivism. How Ironic.

I don’t care if you agree or disagree with the Birchers. But they have every right to an opinion, just like the Tea Partiers, The Unions, whoever. But it is blatantly clear the mismanagement of the Government and the information (not supplied)caused the start of the John Birch Society.

Have I answered your question? Oh yes. Money buys power and influence in DC and Olympia and Madison. You nor I have the moral high ground. But the government is there to provide a good education for our children. Across the country it seems to be lower than it should be. Why?

It is not just unions. It is not just Teachers. It is not just Parents. But it is a combination of them and more. We need to get this figured out.

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[HMC Rich]

JoB, I already knew a lot about the Koch Brothers. That is Think Progress’s report. It pretty much sums up what they do.

Just like Glenn Beck sums up what George Soros does.

Follow the money.

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[HMC Rich]

Dobro, I need to buy you a drink, or soda, one of these days. I was essentially calling myself a moron for fun.

Tonight I had a Modelo Especial and a Fat Tire Amber. First beers I have had in about four months. But I must admit I am a Coke Zero fan.

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[redblack]

you knew this was coming, rich. :)

Because all the bosses care about is power. Those dues help convince politicians. If they cared about their people they would have stood toe to toe about the wages and healthcare but they rolled over.

why? because the thought of a liberal being selfless enough to negotiate for the common good is a completely foreign idea? that’s pretty arrogant and condescending, and i don’t think you have the right to assert that about people who work just as hard as everyone else in this society.

we pay our taxes, too. (and without misplaced resentment!) insinuating otherwise, or treating us like leaches on the backs of “real, hard-working americans” is damned insulting. as a matter of fact, they’re fighting words.

and where do you people get this crap about union bosses? our unions look just like your union, rich: democratic institutions where our leadership is elected, not appointed by people who can afford the investment.

what is it that pisses you off so much about organizing? scott walker is the perfect example of why unions are necessary for public sector employees. he’s making the argument for us by behaving like a petulant, insane brat instead of like an adult who can accept collective bargaining as a fact of american life and admit that the teachers’ unions have conceded wage and benefit cuts.

then there’s your claim about unions contributing to political campaigns. this is different from corporations buying politicians – exactly how? except that we have far less money? that we represent a diminishing 12% of the work force? because unions are transparent, democratic organizations? can’t be taken over hostilely? don’t have CEO’s, publicly-traded shares, and shareholders? you pretend that unions are coercive; yet membership is totally voluntary. if you work for a corporation, i’d like to see how far you get if you criticize their choice of candidate contributions. the first amendment doesn’t apply on your employers’ private property; but it does in the union hall.

it’s telling that you guys (wrongly) accuse unions – and government – of behaving like corporations.

don’t like union politics? morally opposed to collective bargaining? republican? would you rather make less pay while shelling out more for health care? do you care sooo deeply for the businesses in your state that you’d do anything for them – despite the fact that they probably won’t hire you anyway? great! you’re free to leave the union at any time.

the word for someone who shamelessly flatters the rich and powerful (because they might deign to give someone a job or be generous enough to free up a pittance of capital for the greater good) is sycophant. 3000 years of evidence shows this behavior to be folly.

my personal theory is that teabaggers are jealous of union wages, and they’re angry with themselves for not having the foresight and guts to stand up on their hind legs to demand better for themselves and their families.

furthermore, it’s becoming increasingly obvious that conservatives are putting a value judgment on the relative worth of public sector employees as if it’s any of their damned business. yes, i understand that taxpayers pay those wages and a lot of those benefits. but taxpayers inherently give municipalities the authority to sign contracts with these unions in good faith.

now, because the private sector is suffering, suddenly it’s fashionable to knock teachers’ pay down so they can be as miserable as everyone else – while simultaneously bitching about the cost and quality of their kids’ public school educations.

I flipping know how bad the educational system can be there. That was many years ago but the evidence from the DOE is damning, not only in Wisconsin but in most states.

your personal anecdote notwithstanding, wisconsin ranks near the top of high school completion, college placement, and test scores. so do the other unionized blue states.

http://studentactivism.net/2011/02/21/teachers-unions-actsat-and-student-performance-is-wisconsin-out-ranking-the-non-union-states/

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[JoB]

HMCRich…

are you aware that only 6.2% of private sector workers are unionized.. while the percentage for public sector workers is 36.2% ?

They comprise half of all unions members in the United States.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

US Bureau of Statistics

Union Members Summary

the public sector is the last bastion of unionized work forces in the United States…

if you bust them.. you eliminate half of the union members in the United States.. you bust unions.

This isn’t about public versus private..

this is about union busting period…

Union representation matters.. to the tune of about $200 a week.

“In 2010, among full-time wage and salary workers, union members had median usual

weekly earnings of $917, while those who were not represented by unions had median

weekly earnings of $717.”

if you think private sector unions matter… you might want to take a closer look at what you are buying here and rethink your position on this .

after you help them bust public unions…

they’ll go after yours…

all in the name of “worker’s rights”.

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[sydney]

Sorry, Rich, you didn’t answer my question. Plus, you assumed I think Tea Partiers are rich. Far from it, I think they are people like myself, but are misinformed as to the causes of their financial difficulties. You are included in this group.

You might want to answer my question.

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[dawsonct]

All those union dues going to ensure the only people who get elected are liberal Democrats. Boy, THAT sure is working well.

—

Of the top ten donors to political campaigns, three of them were unions who, generally, supported Democratic candidates (and you can bet it will be a LONG time before the police and firefighter unions in Wisc. will fall for the promises of a Republican candidate again!). The rest were corporations (over which, unless you are on the board of directors, you have ZERO influence) who donated primarily to ultra-conservatives of both parties.

THAT is the primary goal of Walker (that and selling off State assets to his political benefactors), destroy the citizenry’s ability to organize and stand up for their own rights.

Why do you people want to live your lives in servitude to the ultra-rich? What have they done to improve America? What do they do to support our democratic processes?

They take eleven cookies, and gleefully watch us fight over the one that remains.

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[sydney]

@HMCRich: “Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. … Their number is negligible and they are stupid.” -Eisenhower

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[HMC Rich]

Hi Sydney. Destruction of the New Deal. I missed that part. I was skimming too quickly. My mistake. Ike was right.

I have no doubt that certain people want some of the Progressive New Deal Era programs to go away. Quite a few of the New Deal programs were found unconstitutional. And stopping farm subsidies is about as likely as pulling teeth from a healthy tiger or crocodile. Those midwest representatives have a death grip on those. I detailed their father (Koch) was a member of the John Birch society. The apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree. But it is their right. But let us not allow the government to get too bloated and wasteful.

Although most likely not what the framers had in mind we do have all those programs you mentioned. We are not likely to get rid of them. But, would you not agree that the entitlements are going broke. Could they not be possibly modified a bit to run more efficiently.

I have not seen any solutions from the Democrats on trying to get them close to solvent. Please, show me some solutions besides Paul Ryan’s. I believe I saw better solutions come from our forum contributors.

I can admit that I could be misinformed or not knowledgeable enough. I am here to learn. Help me out. We may disagree, we may agree, who knows?

How about a little irony? The Public Employee Unions of Wisconsin should be nice to the Koch (sounds like Coke – that is for BHO’s promptor) Brothers. The Union Pension Fund has holdings in Georgia Pacific/Koch Industries corporate bonds. Here is the link: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/260979/wisconsin-state-employees-should-have-some-koch-and-smile-christian-schneider

And how ironic also the Birch Society came from a government coverup. HMMMMM. Many of you didn’t mention that.

Yes JoB, I know the statistics of Private Unions and Public Employee Unions which you mentioned.

Was FDR wrong to oppose Public Employee Unions? I said I do support more of the Private Unions. Yes Trumka is always visiting the white house but why not. Obama and the Unions get along very well and have been good to each other.

Regardless, When is the vote going to take place? Why are the Senators AWOL? They are shirking their duty. Politics isn’t fair. Ask the Republicans after the Democrats hammered them in 2008. We were told by Obama to ride in back. http://topics.npr.org/quote/04sd44m9GVdG4?q=Business

It is at times a dirty game, that being politics. Although sometimes some humanity comes out like the Democratic Assembly man helping the Republican Assembly person who was being berated by a few zealous people. But the process is there and it needs to happen.

One of the Senators is pregnant. She is not happy staying away from home. What if a corporation kept a pregnant woman from her home? Lawsuit city and rightly so.

They need to go home and vote.

Redblack, we are talking about Eighth graders, not college students. The State UW (u dubya as the locals say) is an excellent system.

I personally don’t need the Union work but then again, I may in the future. And other wonderful friends of mine do. Did our industry need the unions we use. Not really but it hasn’t hurt either. I was just spouting off and I am glad you answered. I like your answers. I would like to hear more from people who work in the Public Sector that are unionized. The citizens, union and non-union, pay their wages. A certain amount of accountability is needed from the government too, union or not.

DawsonCT How are we living in servitude to the Ultra Rich? How are we living in servitude to the Government? Let’s see. I am required to pay taxes to the government. And I don’t mind unless they want too much and they get the job finished or help. I CHOOSE to pay for goods from businesses, some owned by super rich people. But give me your opinion about living in servitude to the Ultra Rich.

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[dobro]

“Did our industry need the unions we use. Not really but it hasn’t hurt either.”

that seems to me to be a disingenuous statement. Apparently you were in a union and say you didn’t really need it. am I reading that correctly? Do you think your benefits and working conditions would have been the same without it? Why did you join the union if you think you didn’t need it? I’m sure no one forced you.

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[sydney]

I want to know why in the world anyone, especially you Rich, would WANT the Republicans to succeed considering that it would ensure that any ‘class’ other than the FILTHY RICH will have any control over their own lives? Do you think I can live without my social security payments when I’m too old to work? The answer is I’ll be eating catfood even with social security. Am I getting a pension from the corporation I work for? No. Even if they had offered a pension twelve years ago when I started, does that guarantee any of it will be there when I retire? No. Social Security, on the other hand was fully funded until Alan Greenspan was allowed to put IOUs into it.

Sure capitalism is great if you have capital. You accrue it in good times and invest it hoping your investments will bear fruit. How many people lost their life savings in the stock market recently? I know of a few. Those formerly smug people are having to sell their property and tighten their belts now. You may be one of those people, although since you’re in a union, maybe not!!!!

The more you know…

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[MarkAngello]

And we want full financial disclosure of where our union dues go and the chance to view the books. Oh wait. We earned that too. But the union thugs try to stop the working man from inspecting the books. All that corruption waiting for an honest union man to delve into it. It’s enough to make a tax-and-spend liberal cringe.

Oh wait! They are… in Wisconsin, in Ohio, in Montana…

Why don’t the corrupt, big unios want their innocent victims… er, members to know what they do with their money? Hmmm… I bet that’s because it goes into their wallets and into bribe money. That is why some unions have been busted by the feds when forced into full disclosure. I like that.

Now as for supporting evil and immoral causes detested by us innocent workers, the law requires unions to let workers deduct the portion of their dues otherwise sent to these unsavory characters. A victory for the worker over the corrupt mafia-like union bosses…

If you are a public school teacher, for example, and you don’t want to pay any portion whatever of your dues to support abortion and homosexuality, or leftwing extreme candidates, then under FEDERAL law you have the right to refuse to pay all the dues.

In liberal California the leftwing teachers union tried to fight that an lost. Our conservative law firms took the case for FREE… pro bono and beat the best the entire liberal establishment could offer. Celebrate!

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[redblack]

[rich: thanks for the kind words. these posts help me work some things out in my own head, too, and they’re kind of therapeutic during this current work slowdown. i’m glad neighbors can disagree without being too disagreeable.]

so let me get this straight. we can pry the unions’ fingers off of good wages and fringe benefits, cut hours and pay, raise health care premiums, eliminate COLAs, and otherwise generally squeeze the working class however it suits our needs in order to make some silly statement about “fiscal responsibility” and “belt tightening” and “sharing the burden.”

(never heard any of that talk when republicans were busy running up $10 trillion in debt.)

but we can’t find the strength to remove the death grip on entitlement candy for conagra? or exxon? or eli lilly? or GE? or any of the top 2%? where’s their share of the burden? they’re making record profits. but we can’t even get unemployment funded, because they run congress now. (arguably, the white house and the courts, too, but congress is more obvious and immediately accountable.)

by the admission that we can’t stop or even suspend subsidies – even when it’s necessary to balance budgets – you have just acknowledged that the u.s. is a plutocracy.

you have also admitted that this battle, centered on little old madison, WI, is about class warfare. and we are losing. not just the unions; all of us, the tea party rank-and-file included.

and i have news for you, rich: no matter how much you carry their water, you’ll never be in their class. they’re a tiny minority, but they have you and the tea party to help them use some semblance of democracy to rob the lower classes. because the alternative is violent.

so you’re helping them stave off what’s inevitable: we will raise taxes on them. maybe not this election cycle, but soon. my personal belief is that we should make outsourcing and offshoring illegal first – i.e. slam the door and lock it, then raise taxes and remove subsidies so that they have two choices: pay higher taxes (or invest the money in their own businesses and hire people – no more profit-taking without providing jobs) or go out of business. no more foreign incorporation. no more tax avoidance. no more subsidies. no more lax regulation. no more polluting with impunity. no more buying votes.

in other words, if you want to be an american business, you have to help your country get out of debt first. the rest of us do it every day, and we don’t get to play in the french riviera so we can escape the proletarian reek of manhattan or chicago or san francisco.

so instead of beating on government – which, ostensibly, is US – why don’t you guys direct your ire where it’s warranted? in other words, you’re going for the throats of your fellow citizens instead of the people who are robbing you blind. i’m guessing that your bills are killing you a lot more than your taxes right now. mine are. and with interest.

one last thought: think about the national debt for a minute. what do we, the people, have to show for it? ask yourself where that money went. we were told that running up that debt would create jobs and that it would eventually raise revenues.

“where’s the f$@&ing money, lebowski?”

i agree, with you on this, though: union pension funds should divest from koch industries, now that the national spotlight has been cast on them and their blatant political attack on working people.

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[redblack]

markangello: you don’t have a clue of what you’re talking about.

not one.

also note that california kicked republicans out in a landslide in 2010. california has been beat up by those clowns for decades, and the people – even the inland empire – are getting tired of it.

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[dobro]

Once you start using the “union thugs” BS it becomes clear that you’re just another talking points addled shill that would best be ignored.

And I think California is a bellweather of what’s going to happen in 2012 if we can withstand the blizzard of lies that the rightwing billionaires will be raining down on us. When their pro-corporate anti-worker policies get some daylight showered on them they end up losing big but the unlimited money (far more than any union has to spend) will make it tough.

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[JoB]

HMCRich…

i want to know where the idea that the public has any right to decide how a public employee’s paycheck is spent came from?

how did the money they spend from their paycheck on union dues suddenly become public money?

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[redblack]

warning: this link has a naughty word in it.

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