Public Assembly

[DP]

JoB: Couldn’t tell whether you were being ironic in #23 or not. Assuming you are . . .

Sharing your “education” with others on a blog is fine, but in sydney’s case, it’s a lot like preaching to the choir, since sydney is a liberal and this blog is dominated by liberals. Criticizing the Tea Party in a context like this one is the political equivalent of complaining about the dog-doo in your yard.

Voting is also fine, and I assume sydney does that too. But I think President Obama has amply proven that voting isn’t the be-all and end-all of politics.

So I repeat my question:

  sydney, what are you doing about the problem besides talking?

—Are you trying to engage constructively with people in the Tea Party?

—Are you organizing a march?

—Starting a petition drive?

—Calling your congresspeople?

What?

Educate me, please.

Thank you.

–David

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[Zenguy]

DP, seriously?

The Republicans are not interested in listening to ANYONE’S opinion, including Republicans. The elected officials on the right are only in this for one thing, themselves.

I personally have participated in many marches, registered people to vote, written articles on politics in the Times and I communicate with my representatives on a regular basis.

What are you doing to educate the Republicans on your views? And you cannot tell me with you agree with everything the Republicans support any more than I agree with everything the Democrats support.

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[JoB]

DP…

“Sharing your “education” with others on a blog is fine, but in sydney’s case, it’s a lot like preaching to the choir, since sydney is a liberal and this blog is dominated by liberals. Criticizing the Tea Party in a context like this one is the political equivalent of complaining about the dog-doo in your yard. “

really?

just because liberal posts on the forum outnumber conservative posts.. there is no point to posting? What about the readers who read but don’t post. do you assume they are all liberals too?

just because we are all liberals.. do you assume the information posters provide is already known and understood by all members the liberal audience? do you assume we are all in agreement?

I don’t think so.

beyond that… i continue to believe that the most radical act any citizen can make is to speak out.

There are a large number of ways to do that…

and yours is just the short list…

organizing … or participating … in a march

starting … or participating … in a petition drive

calling or writing your congresspeople

you forgot posting on public forums…

and neighborhood organizing

and volunteering

and …

to put it bluntly.. you have no idea what I or sydney or charlabob or zenguy or any other poster here does to support their political views.

personally, i average a couple of these acts every single day of my life… and have done so for 45+ years…

but whether sydney is new to the activism game or a seasoned player.. every voice and every comment counts…regardless of whether you can see that or not.

it’s good to remember that assumptions = ass-u-me

The face any of us show here on the forum is only a fraction of who and what we are.

As for trying to engage constructively with people in the Tea Party … who exactly do you think represents the conservative voices here?

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[JoB]

smitty…

if the legislators in Wisconsin could have filibustered they would not have had to leave the state to forestall a vote.

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[redblack]

sydney: rich is a union member. how’s that for irony?

smitty: the only option the dems in WI had – in order to not allow an end to collective bargaining – was to not allow a quorum.

period.

compare it to a filibuster if you want, but that’s a false analogy, and you know it.

a better analogy would be the majority party ending the filibuster, aka the nuclear option.

but neither analogy describes how legislators are taking rights away from the citizenry who elected them, no matter what party they adhere to.

the only question that needs to be answered is: “do we, the people, have a right to organize on our own behalf?”

i await your answer. debate me on the other points, but i respectfully request a direct answer to the above question.

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[redblack]

btw: guess who benefits from privatized energy in the badger state?

could it…? is it…?

it couldn’t be… could it?

it is!

KOCH INDUSTRIES!

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[redblack]

i really hate to have a third post running, but, DP, please don’t lecture people on their respective levels of involvement.

i’m a trade union member. i get information from as many non-corporate sources as i can. i watch c-span until i want to gouge out my own eyes. i write letters. i yell at the tee vee.

will i fly to wisconsin or ohio? probably not.

will i be the first guy to pick up a baseball bat when the crap hits the fan? probably not. (but i might be the second.)

does that – or a lack of “that” – make me any less entitled to post on a community forum?

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[HMC Rich]

Thanks DP.

Opinions are like … nevermind, everyone has one. These are just words that help reflect our opinions but sometimes they do not genuinely reflect everything we may want to get across.

But here is a link for a few of the more vehement posters who seem to savage certain political groups: YouTube video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4u3KcOAxHI&feature=related

I don’t know about the labels but the exchange was rather interesting. Warning, probably taped by a Tea Party person.

So as to not make my posts too long I will be making two or three more.

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[HMC Rich]

The unions have helped the average American and other economies immensely with workers rights. We workers owe a lot to the struggles of past union members. Some who died and others who gave up way more than most of us. But the unions, just like politicians, have also been evil, racist, greedy and out of touch, along with bountiful, compassionate and steady, brotherly, sisterly, tough and necessary. I enjoy history so please do not think that I am not aware of what has transpired.

So let us not use a flame thrower where a match is a better choice. Some of the incendiary language is counter productive.

I found this “experts” view interesting. He has made OP-ED Opinions in the NY Times and his college: http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon0222dd.html

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[HMC Rich]

Since I vote more conservative, I am generally less inclined to support the Public Sector Unions. The Right Wingers are pulling out FDR’s view of Public Unions. Here within this link are FDR’s words and some history. http://www2.hernandotoday.com/content/2010/oct/17/ha-fdrs-warning-public-employee-unions-a-no-no/

Here is a link from Real Clear Politics from one of the articles from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal relating to FDR also: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/02/19/the_ghost_of_fdr_is_smiling_on_wisconsins_governor_108962.html

There are two sides or more to every story. I also saw anti-conservative information while finding these links. Right now I am proud that my wife’s “private” union told the ownership group to kiss off. They are being unreasonable and without representation in her industry the management would run roughshod over the employees. Not all companies are as cut throat either.

But, the Wisconsin legislators who cut and ran, have made their point, allowing the unions to fight this and make a stand. Now it is time for them to take their medicine. To not come back soon would be anti-american and selfish. They are elected representatives and need to do their job, even if it hurts. In two years the citizens of Wisconsin can vote in new reps and in four years a new governor if they want.

I know Walker has an agenda. So does our President. We each have to take what we perceive as the good and the bad.

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[HMC Rich]

But Redblack, I do respect your views. And if we choose, we can use more provocative language. It is just kind of strange that when the shootings in AZ happened, Civility was called for.

Do I like Dobro’s or a few others messages? Not really, but that is how he/she feels. Do I think they are a bit condescending? Yup, but I can accept that. I get tired of it at times, and might mouth off too. Oh Well. And just like Burger King ads from the past… Have it your way.

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[HMC Rich]

Just for the record. I am miffed why some of you are questioning DP. I doubt we (DP and I) agree on a lot of stuff but being able to see another point of view (while not agreeing with it) seems rather open minded to me.

Open minded people and observing the pain others have shared with me has led me to support Gay Marriage. It is not easy to go against the current. But I will. Also, since I am straight, I try not to think about it too much for a variety of reasons, but I know to Love someone with all your heart and soul is the best gift we can all give and receive.

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[redblack]

But, the Wisconsin legislators who cut and ran, have made their point, allowing the unions to fight this and make a stand. Now it is time for them to take their medicine. To not come back soon would be anti-american and selfish. They are elected representatives and need to do their job, even if it hurts. In two years the citizens of Wisconsin can vote in new reps and in four years a new governor if they want.

you understand that if the wisconsin 14 come back, the senate goes into session, and they vote on passage of this bill, right? and that its passage is assured if there’s a vote, right? and that the bill means the effective end to collective bargaining, right?

It is just kind of strange that when the shootings in AZ happened, Civility was called for.

i’ve never not wished for civil discourse. but for so long, the right has pushed the left into a corner, hurled insults, and let the religious gun nuts make all the insinuations that they want about gays and liberals and women and minorities.

so i hope you’ll excuse me if i want to push you back into the center of the room – where facts trump distortions and spin – before i take a conciliatory tone.

it doesn’t mean i can’t be civil; but it does mean that if i’m shoved, i might take a proverbial swing at you. (or maybe even if i’m just speaking up for someone who can’t or won’t speak up for himself.)

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[sydney]

@DP: Thank you for complimenting my analysis, but you apparently didn’t notice that I asked a question first (before you did) and perhaps you also didn’t notice that I was addressing a (presumably) conservative fellow, so how is that “preaching to the choir”?

And you can educate yourself by watching progressive networks like Free Speech TV and Link TV. Listen to KPTK AM 1090 and read books like the Federalist Papers, Confessions of an Economic Hitman, The Shock Doctrine, Blackwater; blogs and online rags such as Consortium News, AlterNet, Hullabaloo, Balloon Juice, TruthDig, Glenn Greenwald, Alicublog, and MediaMatters.org; then get back to me :^)

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[sydney]

Thanks Zenguy, JoB and redblack, for defending me! Also I used to do union construction and worked with guys who listened to Rush Limbaugh and Howard Stern every day. I couldn’t understand their position since they benefited so directly from union activity.

I have found in so many cases, where there is a stepping backward from progress, it is due to a single man and his cronies. Bill Bennett, Reagan’s Secretary of Education, personally killed Civics classes which might have helped our younger generations understand the importance of being informed, instead of what they got (a lot of ‘greed is good’, Randian BS from the mainstream media, with which they were ill-equipped to deal). Way back when, it was Harry J. Anslinger who demonized hemp for the cotton, petroleum, tobacco and alcohol industries. McCarthy and his disastrous anticommunist campaign polarized us and forever left ‘socialism’ with an evil taint, undeservedly. Extreme capitalism a la Greenspan is just as bad as communism, leading to the destruction of the middle class and eventually either revolt or fascism, or simply a whole lotta poor people! Reagan mumble Bush grumble grr Gingrich Palin Bachmann (pardon me while I drink a virtual martini).

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[redblack]

sydney: well-put, but may i submit that this is the same struggle that has existed since the dark ages? the same feudal land barons are attempting to wrest control back from the serfdom, which decided that democracy was a better way to go than servitude and penury when they threw british east india’s tea into boston harbor in 1773.

unfortunately, the barony has convinced a lot of the serfs that they (the barony) are the good guys, and that collectivism is evil, despite the fact that collectivism is what built the roaring, industrial middle class of the fifties to which we aspire to return. (only this time, we want to let all of us working folks play, regardless of skin color.)

“no,” they insist, “serfs must be serfs, and even if you want access to a good-paying job, we’re going to make you work the rest of your life to pay for that privilege.” (talking about higher education here.) you want a nice house, with a full pantry, and fancy stuff in it? “okay,” they say, “but we are going to own that house until you are old and poor, and you will pay us interest for the privilege.”

so when people who frame houses, pour streets and sidewalks, wire buildings, clean up after others, etc. decide that they, too, want access to the riches of – arguably – the most affluent country on earth, they are made to clear a very high bar. they are attacked for being uppity socialists when they band together to demand access in exchange for actually building things and keeping the trains clean and running on time – or maybe even own the train.

some people haven’t yet realized that they are serfs, and will never be barons as long as the barons make the rules.

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[sydney]

Why redblack, you hit the nail on the head! It’s all true. The key word has always been ‘vigilance’, or as heartless conservatives might remind us, “you snooze you lose”.

I’ve done a fair amount of marching in support of gay rights, organized with my old union, went to the capital to protest NAFTA, called my reps, attended political meetings and rallies, studied and studied. Now will someone please answer my question to HMCRich? HINT hint?

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[dobro]

I watched the youtube vid that you posted , Rich, that was titled Gay Black Man Harrassed By SEIU union members that was, I guess,supposed to show how mean these union thugs can be. It starts off with the black guy telling the union members how lazy union workers are and then he talks over and interrupts the people trying to talk to him, then he refuses at first to shake hands with a white-haired grandmotherly woman but finally does, as they try to ask him why he votes against his own interests. These are union “thugs”? A grandma and a guy in a plaid sweater? This is what the right wing pass off as “intolerance”? What a joke.

I’m legitimately curious, too,as to what I’ve said that would be considered condescending. If calling people stupid that are so ignorant about where their weekend off work comes from, perhaps I should have used the more diplomatic “uneducated”.

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[DP]

Well put, sydney et al.

(Thanks for answering my question, sydney even though Rich still owed you one.)

The name of the game is vigilance. Any rights that are taken for granted — no matter how hard-won — will ultimately be lost. That’s why we’ve got to keep talking and, more importantly, keep fighting.

Now Rich, please come back here and answer sydney’s question!!!

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[JoB]

HMCRich..

1..that is what you call harassment? boy that labeling gig really works well.

so… non harassment would have been listening reverently and agreeing with everything the man had to say?

2. can’t get there from here right now. just as well

3. you are aware that the public sector unions have conceded to every point Gov Walker and the republicans in the legislature asked for except making it illegal for the union to collectively bargain for public sector employees.

This isn’t about the fiscal emergency Gov Walker created… it is about breaking the unions so Wisconsin jobs can be outsourced.

the state court of Wisconsin has just ruled that his last union breaking stint for the state was illegal. that little outsourcing move will cost the state of Wisconsin half a mil for each of the security workers who were fired by his last illegal union breaking move…

and you think the democrats should come home and take their licks?

no need for integrity here.. winner take all?

if we follow that money trail the winner who takes all are the Koch brothers who fund the tea party…

hmmmmmmm…. ?

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[JoB]

cribbed from a friend of a friend on facebook… John Douglas

It’s a shame that more and more people seem to have less and less respect. That’s why moral sense is more important than just the respect for the law – morals are internal, and the law is external. When the law isn’t around, people will do what they can get away with. When morals are around, people constantly assess what they do.

HMVRich

Wisconsin was the first state in the United States to allow the unionization of their public sector workers…

and it has turned out to be a really good deal for both the workers and the state.

what Governor Walker is doing is wrong.

It will eventually be ruled illegal by the state’s court system as his prior attempt at union busting was.

The citizens of his state will either run a successful recall election or boot him out at the next opportunity.

But in the meantime he is attempting to end run the laws of his state simply because he thinks he can get away with it and because it will benefit his campaign supporters financially .

Exercising power because you can

whether it is in the best interests of your state or not

is hubris at best… criminal at worst.

And this is what you choose to defend?

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[redblack]

HMVRich

Wisconsin was the first state in the United States to allow the unionization of their public sector workers…

[snicker] HMV rich. his majesty’s vessel, indeed.

just kidding, rich! come on, buddy. where’s the love?

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[HMC Rich]

All that video did was show a verbal chat between a few disagreeing citizens. But if a Tea Partier had been questioning a black person like that, many of you would have been up in arms. Admit it.

I am not even showing the Hitler/Walker signs. Maybe they were LaRouchies, maybe not. All sides guilty at times.

The sun “rose” this morning. The political process was at work and in action whether we like it or not.

Walker was elected by the people of Wisconsin. He told people what he wanted to happen during his campaign. The good citizens (and some of my relatives) will vote him out if they do not like him and his policies. Hiding from the political process certainly made news for the elected representatives. The unions banding together may have made them stronger for future battles.

I don’t need to tell you this, but in two and four years these votes can be changed.

The larger issue right now is state debt. Here is a link (albeit not from the Daily Kos) that shows state debt in relation to public union representation in government.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/public-sector-unions-and-state-debt-go-hand-hand

Wisconsin and Washington State cannot print money like the Federal Government. Cuts have to be made. Our state did it differently from Wisconsin, so will California, so will Minnesota etc. The experiment is working.

Also, if big government is soooo good for the rest us, why are public unions needed? So many here seem to espouse how wonderful government is. If it is so grand then there shouldn’t be a problem.

Don’t get me wrong. I like and pay for many of these government services. I benefit from some of them. But there has to be responsibility from both Republicans and Democrats in power.

I do support our private unions. I also know for a fact how devious and greedy some (not all but SOME) businesses are. The worker needs protection and help at times. Good government helps the worker and the business owner. The capitalist works within the system but the evil corporatist works for themselves and needs to be kept in check. Unions help level the playing field. But the unions have their own problems. Bad employees are not let go or are given concessions when they don’t deserve them. Some school districts and termination policies are a joke. Our kids suffer.

Honestly, I do want what is best for everyone but if some of you decide to promote just one side, I will happily counter your argument just for fun. But we will disagree at times.

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[HMC Rich]

Well, Dobro. I may think someone is a moron, but I don’t generally call them that. Yes, you should have used uneducated but that is my opinion. You can use any language or terms you want. There are plenty of us morons out there. LOL. Tone is hard to gauge in these posts and each of us views certain use of language differently. A joke to one person is a slander to another. At least someone like Ken explained in one post awhile back what kind of person he was. I have never questioned it and appreciate his point of view (and obvious intelligence). I don’t hold a candle to him in almost every debate. I admit it. I wish I had more time to look into these issues. So I may dislike your position or how you promote your view, but I do not dislike you.

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[sydney]

Hey Rich, you’re not ignoring my question are you?

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