post election fun

[JoB]

beachdrivegirl..

social security isn’t a bailout program. it is an insurance program… paid into by citizens… in good faith.

That’s why it pays everyone according to their investment.. not just according to their need.

It was created to prevent another situation like the one citizens were in after the last major depression…

kinda like those pensions that workers deferred part of their paycheck to get…

Both were investment programs for their future.

At one time a company’s guarantee meant something.

I truly hope the government’s guarantee means more… but no.. i don’t count on it.

What i want to know is how you can label expecting the investment you made in an insurance program to pay out as looking out for number one?

Are you looking out for number one if you expect your life insurance to pay out if you die? or your medical insurance? or for that matter… expecting your employer to honor their contract and pay you for the work you have done.

none of those are seen as entitlement programs. What makes social security different?

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[JoB]

HeavyMetalConservative..

if there was a point in your last long post that you want to talk about. please bring it up again.

if not.. let’s move on.

i am most interested in talking about how you see the policies being fielded.. and the cabinet nominations.

I don’t think anyone should trust their government.

I find it amusing that what has changed most is that both republicans and democrats will now be holding their government accountable.

And neither one of us are going to get what we want.

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[HeavyMetalConservative]

Hello JoB. On cabinet appointments. I think I am as dismayed as you. Maybe for different reasons.

No matter what Obama does, I think a lot of people will be unhappy with left or moderate positions concerning his choices. Republicans don’t expect a lot of compromise, nor should they. We lost (which in the long run may not have been a bad thing).

I like this cartoon about the GOP

http://news.bostonherald.com/holbert/?gallery_id=791&p=10

I think Obama’s pick of Hillary for Secretary of State was genius. She would have been his leading opponent in the Senate. Now his political enemy is right where he can see her. But with that pick, I almost feel sorry for John Kerry, since he was such a good supporter of Obama’s.

I like this cartoon for Mrs. Clinton

http://news.bostonherald.com/holbert/?gallery_id=791&p=7

When asked about Holder, I knew his Marc Rich mistake with the Clinton Pardons, but I am hoping Holder has learned from his past mistakes. At least it wasn’t Gorelich or Allbright. Pardons are interesting. What cocaine dealer were you speaking of?

I think this comparing Obama to Lincoln/FDR is a bit much since he hasn’t done anything yet. (Yes he did win the election and now many people have hope.) But I hope he can prove me wrong. I have heard some conservatives trumpeting his cabinet selections, but some are stridently disagreeing.

I am surprised he kept Gates. I do not believe he will be a thorn in the new Presidents side. I also think since we have to withdraw most of troops in Iraq in 3 years, he will probably be leaving around then. Just a guess.

I think in two years there will be quite a bit of turnover. If there are too many disagreements with the new president, I bet there will be some resignations.

I can’t resist a little partisanship. I do find it funny that when the market goes up it has to do with Obama’s pick of cabinet members, but when it goes down they have nothing to do with them. Whatever. Come 1-20-09 at 12:01pm it will be Obama Time.

Now, if he is a good president I won’t need to buy the 01-20-13 bumper sticker. If he is not a good president, well …. just having fun.

If anyone else sent these cartoons, I apologize for not having read your posts.

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[Anonymous]

HMC – What you said! I agree wholeheartedly! Of course, you already knew that. ;)

You say what I think better than I ever could hope to, therefore, I value and appreciate your “long” posts (which, surprisingly, are NOT of the longest this forum has seen). But, they are always filled with intelligent thought and friendly debate.

Please keep it up!

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[beachdrivegirl]

now job you are being quite silly and misreading my post. I am not saying to not believe in SS. But what I am saying is not to just assume taxpayers will pay for housing feeding and Medicare if SS fails plan for your future

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[Zenguy]

I think you completely skipped over Jan’s post though. What are people that through no fault of their own end up in the worst situations to do? Live under a bridge?

My grandparents worked hard all their lives, served in a war, made a lot of money (rich by most peoples standards) and then my grandfather had a stroke and spent almost ten years in Mt. St. Vincent and used up most of their money.

I do not think anyone ‘expects’ to have the government take care of them, but how are taxes that go to pay for your schooling or your childrens or the roads and infrastuce we ALL use any different?

This country banded together because we realized it is easier to take care of each other that to make it every man for themselves.

*steps down from soapbox*

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

our nation will be faced with two choices due to the greedfest that has wiped out a large part of equity/wealth of the middle class.. not to mention decimating the lower class.

We will either feed and house people and pay for medical care or we will literally step over them on the streets as they starve to death.

And a lot of these unfortunate people are going to be old folks and the disabled… a little harder to just walk past than winos or druggies.

That’s just reality.

of course we will be housing and feeding them.. and if we are smart we will be covering medical costs as well.. since preventative care is a lot cheaper than critical care.

Who did you think would do it?

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[JoB]

Heavymetalconservative…

loved the cartoons… even the one about Hillary.

And yes.. appointing her will prevent her from getting any credit for social programs that pass the senate… it was a politically smart move on Obama’s part if he wants 8 years.

I do think she will make a fine Secretary of State though.. she has the advantage of knowing many of her international peers personally and is a strong negotiator.

Having a very long political memory i am not so keen on putting the foxes in charge of the hen house… and that is how i see most of the cabinet appointments.

Holder??? .. he just got caught in politics.. i imagine he learned a lot from that.

Gates ???.. the only positive thing i can say about him is that he does understand the issues in the middle east.. after all.. we first met him there when he negotiated the release of prisoners from Iran.. just in time for Reagan’s inauguration…

but… Obama says it will be his agenda that is carried out. we will see what that is. His cabinet choices would definately indicate he is governing towards the middle…

in the meantime, republicans are getting a lot more than they are giving.

this is the least inflammatory link i can find for Bush pardoning a cocaine dealer

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/24/president-pardons-14-persons/

I don’t compare him to Lincoln.. but he compares the situation he is inheriting to that which Lincoln faced… and he is not far off there.

Regardless of what happens, it is going to be a bumpy ride.

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[JoB]

Zenguy…

i think if we can afford huge subsidies and bailouts for corporations … and we apparently can… we have no choice but to fund survival for our own people.

of course, i am one of those bleeding heart liberals..

i think govt by the people … should actually do something for the people.

that’s considered a quaint notion these days… or entitlement:)

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[Zenguy]

Some people hate it when others get some sort of benefit until they are the ones needing the benefit too.

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[Anonymous]

Regarding the responses to BDG: where, then, is the incentive to work?

If the Govt. is going to pay for my housing, my food, my medicare, etc., why should I do anything? Why not live off others?

Of course, I, personally, want SO much more out of life than to actually LIVE like that – where others take care of me, but I think you get my drift. A lot of people here in America already expect to be taken care of. A lot of people in America already don’t have high expectations and have no qualms about taking a hand-out.

So, where is the incentive to work hard, to make a good living, plan a retirement and be successful? In essence, where is the incentive to live the American dream – NOT live off others if it’s all HANDED to us?

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[JoB]

there is that, isn’t there.

because sooner or later, through no fault of their own… everyone needs some kind of help…

the lucky ones have families that can help them.

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[Zenguy]

NR, come on! The vast majority of people work to succeed beyond what the government would provide and for a sense of accomplishment.

Many countries in Europe have a full socialist retirement and people still work and produce just like us.

If you are going to try and argue your point at least make it a good arguement.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Thank you, NR. I thank god someone gets it b/c I do believe there is a large difference between assist and depend. I just am hearing to many people depend and expect the givt to pick up their pieces

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[Anonymous]

Zenguy – PLEASE don’t jump on THAT bandwagon. We’ve met and I’m pretty sure you aren’t entirely convinced.

Where in Europe, exactly, are you referring to? Which socialist country is economically stronger than America?

And, that was exactly my point – I would never settle for only what the Govt. can provide, but A LOT do. So, I guess I could say here: If you are going to argue with my post, at least read it and understand it. Cheers. :)

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[Kayleigh2]

Some of you make me laugh. Do you really think that you could afford $500 a month in medical coverage (in addition to your other living expenses) when you are RETIRED without social security? Yes, $500 a month is how much my retired mother pays for her very crappy medical coverage.

Social Security and Medicare make it possible for some people to retire, and those two social programs keep some people from becoming destitute. Some people will never make enough money to create a real retirement on their own. And some of those people will *have* to retire due to illness or disability or the fact that it’s freaking hard to get hired when you’re 65.

I consider social security to be part of my retirement funds, to which I am entitled. After all, I will have been working 50 years to pay for the social security of the TWO previous generations.

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[GenHillOne]

wow, just wow. must be nice up there.

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[JoB]

It’s pretty self serving to assume that people who have encountered bad luck have done so because they are somehow flawed people who don’t want to better themselves.

If poverty is their fault then it couldn’t happen to you.

There is only one flaw in that argument… sooner or later the personal safety net that each of us depends upon fails.

Parents die. Fortunes dwindle. Marriages dissolve. Health fails. Business fails and despite stellar performance.. you are fired and can’t find another job.

When any combination of those events happen, all of us can find ourselves in serious jeopardy.

you may be young enough to have not lived through the kind of circumstances that can derail the best of plans.. but you are far from immune.

If things get as bad economically in the United States as i think it is possible for them to get.. even you may find your assets tapped sooner than you expect.

That wouldn’t be your fault any more than it is the fault of many of the unemployed or underemployed who are currently surviving thanks to the charity of local food banks.

But i am willing to bet there will still be somebody… just like you… who thinks lazy people who aren’t willing to help themselves shouldn’t get a handout..

only in that case.. they will be talking about you.

it’s too bad that people so fortunate are so unable to see how incredibly lucky they have been… and so unwilling to give others the benefit of doubt.

Think what you want about other people… but be aware that your thoughts don’t define those people. You can dismiss them if you want… but doing so says far more about you than it does about them.

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[Zenguy]

I believe I said socialist retirement, different than total socialism and let’s be clear socialism is NOT communism.

Sweden, Norway and Denmark are continually rated as some of the best places to live in the world. They pay about 51% in taxes, but do not have to pay for health insurance, and retirement is completely paid. While these countries are no where near the size of the US, they compete with states their size pretty well.

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[JoB]

The swedes have just overtaken us in particle acceleration research… by making a huge public investment in scientific research facilities.

They now employ our best people.

And they still provide services to their populations that are being labeled entitlement programs here.

imagine that… a healthy and well educated citizenry has surpassed us scientifically in spite of providing entitlement programs for it’s citizens.

I guess it’s all a question of what you are willing to pay for… all in your priorities.

they thought scientific research and a healthy well educated population more important than funding war.

it seems to be working our pretty well for them.

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[Cait]

Don’t tell me we’re started on socialism here AGAIN. Good God. It’s nice that no one here obviously is depending on government money to fund any part of their life, but there will come a day when you’ll need to. Unless you want to work until the day you die or go poor, you’re going to have to live off of someone else’s money. I don’t care if it’s my money! That’s the price I pay for living in America and I don’t mind it. But please don’t think that because you are able bodied now that you are somehow above government aid.

Zenguy – amen. I really think we have to concede that some countries just have some stuff more figured out than we do. SOME!

If we’re going to take issue with government funded social security and such, I certainly hope that those of you voicing that opinion aren’t asking for financial aid for your little students to go to college.

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[charlabob]

“Where in Europe, exactly, are you referring to? Which socialist country is economically stronger than America?”

It, of course, depends on your definition of economically stronger (or who benefits from this “strenth”.) (BTW, lurkers might want to look up the difference between socialism and democratic socialism–and see where your ideas fall.)

Some people would question the economic strength of a country as wealthy as the United States, whose infant mortality rate is 28th in the world. (According to CDC statistics, the US is behind every developed country in North America, Western Europe, and Australasia, as well as Cuba, Hungary, Israel, and the Czech Republic.)

By most definitions, wealth is significant in relation to to what it’s used for. It’s not a stand-alone metric–a dollar amount, regardless of how the wealth is distributed.

Two small examples:

The single payer health care systems in European countries (except Iceland) provide basic care for all citizens. Sometimes that means a longer wait for “optional” procedures, but no one dies because they can’t afford an annual physical or or diagnosis of severe chest pain.

Our health care(sic) system creates wealth (economic strength) for insurance companies and for-profit medical institutions. That’s why health care is unaffordable to so many people here.

Single-payer countries also include a competitive private health care system for those who want and can afford it. Rich people donm’t have to stand online with the unwashed masses. :-) But *everyone* get the basics.

Iceland chose to drink the completely unfettered “free” market kool aid(tm) — Wonder how that worked out?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article4894904.ece

Bottom line: The European country that most tried to emulate the neocon/neoliberal dream of an unfettered free market for everything is the one country that, by any definition, is worse off economically than we are. They couldn’t afford the total collapse of their monetary system. Actually, imnho, neither can the United States but we haven’t figured that out yet. Since we now have a president who can both think and communicate, we may still get it in time to survive.

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[Zenguy]

And from the stranger than fiction catergory…here is a reference I never thought I would use. finacialjesus.com…who knew?

http://www.financialjesus.com/2008/05/27/top-10-happiest-countries/

I am not using this to back a fact or anything, (since I do not know the source) just thought it was funny.

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[JoB]

Never thought i would say this.. but i am going to go mix myself up some Obama kool-aid and chill.

it’s the holidays.. when the world is supposed to be at it’s most charitable… when even scrooge sees the light and does something nice for someone else.

I choose to inhabit that world and to nurture what hope i can in our present economic and political climate.

I am going to do something for someone else every day between now and christmas…

with any luck i won’t be able to break the habit once i start…

and i am going to start tonight by wishing both beachdrivegirl and newresident the happiest of christmases.

may they never be so unlucky as to find out the hard way how lucky they have been.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

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[JoB]

great link zenguy:)

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[Author]

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