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March 5, 2012 at 12:03 am #602385
JanSParticipantMarch 5, 2012 at 2:05 am #749902
JanSParticipantnot one single parent on here that might want to comment?
March 5, 2012 at 3:35 am #749903
KatherineLParticipantWe’re all speechless.
March 5, 2012 at 3:42 am #749904
DBPMemberAt the risk of getting my head bit off . . . I’ll take a shot.
I agree with Senator Grothman on one point: all other things being equal, a single-parent upbringing is not as desirable as a two-parent upbringing. However, I do NOT take it so far as to say that single parenting leads to abuse. That’s absurd.
I also agree with Senator Grothman that we, as a society, should not be encouraging parents to split up — at least, not when there are good alternatives.
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Senator Grothman asserts that “safety net” programs like AFDC, food stamps, free school lunches, etc. etc. – encourage parents to split up, ostensibly because parents contemplating a split know they’ll still be able to manage on their own.
I disagree. I don’t think safety net programs actually encourage parents to split up. However, I expect there are times when they do make it easier for parents who are tilting toward a split to feel better about their decision.
Why do I say this? —Because I’ve known a few parents who abused the safety net system. I was one of them.
Regardless of whether safety net programs actually contribute to the problems associated with single parenting, I don’t see Senator Grothman offering any good alternatives.
Is he suggesting state-sponsored couples counseling? Better life-skills training in high school? Improved access to contraception?
–Nope. The best idea he can come up with is: Let’s cut their safety net. That’ll teach ’em.
Yeah . . . right.
March 5, 2012 at 3:59 am #749905
JoBParticipantDBP..
i will agree that the safety net is used by some parents as a rationalization when they want to divorce…
but as a single parent who had to rely on that safety net more than once,
i can state emphatically that it is not an incentive to the custodial parent.
there simply isn’t enough of it.
March 5, 2012 at 5:12 am #749906
kootchmanMemberBack up here… there are two “markers” that almost assure a life of poverty. First, out of wedlock parenthood or single parenthood. There is not much debate about it. The second marker is to not graduate from high school. With startling efficiency, single parenthood makes it a tough row to hoe. The higher the out of wedlock, the higher the percentage of single parent homes, the higher the poverty rate. Is is abuse? No. Does it add stress and anxiety? yes. It gets down to personal choices… there is an accounting for every one of them. Subsistance is a safety net… how much more beyond that should “we” provide before it is an incentive? He has a point, if I am feeding your children as a taxpayer, and they are so deprived of stimulus and parental engagement they have to go to daycare and head start… ” non marital parenthood is a contributing factor to child abuse and neglect. Single parents make up a third of all Wisconsin parents”. It said it is “A” contributing, as one cause, of abuse and neglect. That’s a fair statement. Over 40 per cent of births are out of wedlock, nationally.
“People who grew up in a financially secure situation find it easier to succeed in life, they are more likely to graduate from high school, more likely to graduate from college, and these are things that will lead to greater success in life,” Stephen Brown, director of the Center for Business and Economic Research at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas
Womens Legal Defense Fund:
Poverty is widespread and severe in single mother families. According to the recently released Census Bureau data on poverty in 2010, people in single mother families had a poverty rate of 42.2% and an extreme poverty rate of 21.6%.
It it a certainty that abuse and neglect occur? No. Does it raise the probability? Yes. Woud it be an honest appraisal to ignore the facts? You can’t fix a problem you won’t define.
March 5, 2012 at 5:36 am #749907
JanSParticipantDBP, you said “should not be encouraging couples to split up – at least, not when there are good alternatives” What would those good alternatives be for a couple that is broken?
Safety net? When my marriage broke up, when my husband moved out…I was left just starting a new business. Two months later I became so ill that I was hospitalized for 4 months. I couldn’t work for a year. I went to the state for help. I had a small savings that was to be invested for retirement, a settlement in my divorce. The state made me spend every red cent, and refused to help me. I went back to work 8 months later…that would be a total year with no income. And I was offered NO help…so I’m not sure I agree with the good senator that those things will make it easier for divorce.
I also feel that there are some wonderful loving families out there that involve only one parent. My daughter was much better off without parents constantly at each other. She grew up to be an intelligent successful woman. I don’t see it as abuse. Life can be very happy without a ton of money. Yes, there are a lot of single parents whose lives are about poverty…but..we shouldn’t generalize. Kootch…you automatically talked about single parents as being single mothers. What about single fathers…any statistics on that?
Also…you bring up the point about single parents (mothers) having to work, and daycare is “bringing up” the children. So…in a marriage one parent should always stay home and supervise? We all know of marriages where both parents work, and the children are in daycare all day, in school, and after school activities, or home alone, until parent gets home from work. Is that a better situation?
March 5, 2012 at 3:51 pm #749908
kootchmanMemberThe frailty of generalizations, is, there are exceptions. But, I wouldn’t double down or go all in if the odds were 64% against me as a single parent. I quoted a stat from the WDF…. they didn’t have the stats for men. As you know, there are far fewer advocacy groups for men that collect such data. But I found this… ” 4 %of U.S. family households are male-maintained with no wife present – a one percent increase since 1990″ I know that after daycare pick-up a helpmate makes it far easier. Even simple things like rotating daycare pick-up and drop off take off the stress. I also paid for my daycare..it wasn’t a government freebie. I didn’t generalize… stats don’t generalize.. it’s just data and just for you I found the most biased, liberal source I could. Poverty is a handmaiden of single parenthood. Thems is facts. Poverty leads to neglect…are you seriously going to argue that?
March 5, 2012 at 4:41 pm #749909
DBPMemberI’ve seen too many salvageable marriages go south because one of the parties did something stupid and the other one overreacted, or because neither party knew the meaning of the word “compromise.”
Hasty marriages and hasty divorces both fall under the category of “stupidity” in my book. A bumper sticker I saw summed it up perfectly: “Stupidity SHOULD be painful.”
Unfortunately, divorce is even more painful to the kids (who haven’t done anything wrong) than it is to the parents. Therefore, what we need to do is find a way to discourage divorce that doesn’t hurt kids at the same time.
Cutting the safety net is not the answer.
March 5, 2012 at 8:18 pm #749910
JanSParticipantPoverty..going hand in hand with single motherhood…I will agree that I didn’t have it very easy after my divorce. Yes, There would have been more income in the coffers with a partner. But…we were better off without each other, and no, I don’t necessarily agree that it feeds neglect. I never neglected my kid…you could ask her. We didn’t get the newest clothes, or eat out, and, yes, we struggled at times. Money would have made it easier to live…but I still spent time with her, instilled values. She has a grat job with a great company, making more money than I ever did. She didn’t go to college, just has a highschool education. But she is smart, resourceful. She has worked since she was 15yo. You can be a decent parent and still not have money. I never relied on the gov’t. except for medical for a year because I had no insurance and had a serious illness. So, I’m not the norm? I think there are many of us out here..you just don’t hear about the positive stuff…you only dwell on the negative. It’s a shame.
Sometimes there is no compromise, like when a sppouse disappears because he’s fooling around on the side…and…you’re supposed to accept that? Yes, it happens the other way , too. Marriage is too much like going steady these days. It takes work on both sides. Compromise? One would think, but look at our public figures that can’t set an example by compromising ever.
No one wins in divorce, I found out…esp. not the kids….
March 6, 2012 at 4:21 am #749911
JoBParticipantkootch…
i believe you didn’t look very closely at the statistics..
there are others that will get you started on the poverty express faster..
like race.
of course, the fact a man of color is far more likely to spend time in our prison systems regardless of the crime probably contributes to the single parent stats…
don’t you think?
March 6, 2012 at 10:38 pm #749912
kootchmanMemberOK so you broached that issue..it doesn’t alter the premise… 73% of black children were born out of wedlock last year. Now, unless prison has changed, a whole LOT… one cannot be a father whilst behind bars. Might it also be that because 73% are born out of wedlock, the poverty is also the highest in that demographic and they are disproportionately imprisoned? I would rather be back with money than white and poor while in the defendants chair… poor defendants plead out. Guilty or not. Farrakan takes a square shot at it. Like it or not, dads make a huge impact on poverty and incarceration. Higher rates of single parenthood.. higher rates of poverty and incarceration. Highly correlated. Role models are important, icons do not do as stand-ins. Exceptions noted and the disproportionality recognized as in part race The state has a vested interest in a strong two parent family structure. That is not to say there are not other examples of successful structures. The state has a vested interest in same sex couples with children and single parents with children Two parent homes…It’s still the most successful model we have. The odds are increased that the child will have more resources for later ife success. You are old enough to remember the Moynihan Report…… few here I imagine are… a refresher… and tell me it has gotten better. From that taxpayer blood sucking liberal blab .. NPR see the URL The higher the rate of single parenthood of a group, the higher the incident of incarceration, poverty, the lower the achievement of academic success. Those number stand up, irrespective of race. This might be chicken or egg…. either way, single adult headed households claim more share of the “hard life” index.
It’s nutbaggery to try to find some solutions to national crisis… or nutbaggery to try if before it was vetted by liberal PC scores? At least it is recognized… let the alternative solutions flow….so far what we have.. it ain’t working. Is it?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4865449
March 7, 2012 at 4:18 am #749913
JoBParticipantkootch..
and what pray tell leads all of those missing fathers to jail if not poverty?
poverty breeds more poverty kootch..
but hey.. why not blame it all on those single mothers..
after all women are the republican’s favorite whipping post these days
i really do wonder when republicans are going to figure out that the women’s vote really does matter.
Sears had no problem at all figuring it out when Rush decided to smear a woman because she was bold enough to try to testify in front of a congressional hearing concerning a woman’s issue…
They pulled their advertising faster that you could say holy cow.
holy cow!
March 7, 2012 at 2:12 pm #749914
redblackParticipanti really do wonder when republicans are going to figure out that the women’s vote really does matter.
ssh! ssshhh! don’t tell them!
March 7, 2012 at 4:36 pm #749915
JoBParticipantredblack
i sincerely ope it’s too late for them to undo the damage they have already done…
women aren’t stupid.
and we have very long memories
March 7, 2012 at 5:01 pm #749916
DBPMemberWomen everywhere are about exactly as smart/stupid as men, and they vote the way they do for pretty much the same smart/stupid reasons.
In Seattle, women are more likely to vote Democratic because they feel Democrats more closely embody their values. In Topeka, women vote Republican, because over there they think Republicans more closely embody their values.
Q: Are women in Seattle smarter than women in Topeka?
March 7, 2012 at 5:43 pm #749917
kootchmanMemberThe “nutbaggery” is you can raise a nation on dependency as national goal. We have steadily expanded the safety net since the Moynihan report. Guess what expanded right along with it? The numbers of singe parent homes and all the social burdens that accompany that statistic. “nutbaggery” would be to look at the programs as they are, and say they are effective at attacking the root causes. So, take away the rewards for anti-social behavior. It’s another stab at a growing problem. Maybe WI should try it… and see if it does work.
March 7, 2012 at 7:54 pm #749918
JanSParticipantSo, then…should we outlaw single parenthood…and divorce? just askin’ :D
wait, wait…did you say single parenthood is anti-social behavior? Did I misread that?
March 7, 2012 at 8:00 pm #749919
kootchmanMemberIf that is what you read… reread it. Or, don’t try. Just sayin…
March 7, 2012 at 8:07 pm #749920
kootchmanMemberIf you want to run the gauntlet of single parenthood… couple of kids before the age of 20, no father, no schooling.. yea, that is anti-social behavior. You could be Wonderwoman or Superman and be the single parent of the year award winner..but … the facts are.more often than not. your struggles will increase, you are more likely than not to be in poverty with your children. Which is the norm, which is the exception?
March 7, 2012 at 8:33 pm #749921
sam-cParticipantan interesting discussion, but broad generalizations as well. not all single parents are the result of a divorce….
I’ve know of some people who chose to be single parents from the start.
..and then another one, not all people die when they are old. some die much younger- at the age of 35, of cancer for example, when their children are 5.
but that bill really is kind of wacky and seems to make those same generalizations. single parenthood is a choice that people make sometimes and are in their full right to do, but just wanted to point out to the debate that single parenthood isn’t always a choice that someone makes for themselves.
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