More wasteful spending

[Jiggers]

We are in are own crisis. I don’t see other countrie’s going out of its way pledging billions to help us out in our bad times. I hope you like the new Baraaack administration that you have voted in. Hillary Clinton pledging $900 million to Palestine? And why are the Saudi’s in line for our money? The Saudi’s have earmarked $1billion of our dollars too. Just let Israel run them over already. When the money is long gone, they will still be throwing punches at each other for a stupid piece of land. So will be spending billions of our dollars to help rebuild their infrastructure as well? We need to keep the money at home in our own boarders. I haven’t even commented about A.I.G. getting a fourth bailout. Let them file. Sorry if this isn’t W.S. related.

article,

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2009/03/clinton-pledges.html

article,

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5832431.ece

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[c@lbob]

Thanks for asking, Jiggers. I really do like the Obama administration I worked hard to get elected. It’s refreshing to have a president do what he said he’d do during the campaign. So far, so good.

So, what did you think about burning up $1 trillion in Iraq? OK with that? $900 billion in chump change compared to the no bid contracts given to KBR, Blackwater and their successors. There were tens of billions that plain disappeared off the pallets they were shipped in on.

China has dollars to invest, where else can they put them away but in US Treasuries. So long as we maintain a military that is 10 times as large as needed, they’ll continue to have a place to stash their bucks.

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[Sky2625]

HA! They ol’ our military is too big argument rears it’s ugly head.

So catlbob…throwing billions/trillions at irresponsible countries and companies can be justified because we threw a trillion at Iraq? I’d love to see your credit report. Maxed out this credit card? OK, I’ll apply for another to pay off this one. How would that work out for you?

Obama’s kept his promises, huh? He’s going to bring our troops home, right? Nope. He’s going to curtail irresponsible government spending? Nope. He’s going to end earmarks? Nope. (did you look at that stimulus bill?) He’s going to cut taxes. Nope…all we’re getting are tax rebates that we’ll owe back to the government in 2010. Ouch.

I applaud your hard work and passion in participating in our American democracy. Thank you. But let’s call a spade a spade…Obama’s not keeping campaign promises, and throwing money at problems, though it looks like something is being done, may not be the best prescription.

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[c@lbob]

I think calling a spade a spade reveals who you are pretty well.

You rightie racists can settle down and stew in juices now. Your 28 years was a good run, that has nearly sent us to oblivion.

I always find it amazing that the right never thinks their offal stinks.

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[c@lbob]

BTW, 16 months, 18 months, what was it that John McCain was telling us?

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[Trick]

“One of the debates of this election will be if the American people want a candidate who wants to get out [of Iraq] as quickly as possible.”

18 Apr 2008 John McCain

Democracy spoke I guess, as opposed to what the republicans have shoved down our throats in the name of patriotism.

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[Sky2625]

Wow…that’s the first time I’ve been called a racist in awhile. Hmm…isn’t “spade a spade” just a common colloquial phrase…kind of like “lipstick on a pig” is?

To assume, based on my opinions, that I think Republicans are above suspicion shows that you’ve bought what the lefty media shoves down YOUR throat.

You think I’m prejudiced because I used a phrase…I say you’re prejudiced because you don’t even know me, and yet you assume you know everything I think already.

News for you: I care only about the health of our great country. When I see negative things happening, I call ’em like I see ’em.

If Obama can turn around the economy by sheer force of will, by peddling a message of hope, and by helping to restore the people’s confidnce in the future of the country, I’ll applaud him.

But to do the above by expanding government, borrowing money from our children, claiming only government can save us from ourselves, fostering class warfare, increasing lower class dependence on the government’s good will, clamping down on private charity, and targeting certain classes of citizens for economic discrimination (i.e. the tax increase on the wealthy)…all of this is fallacy, and quite un-American.

Race has nothing to do with it. It’s all about what our representatives do with their power once we, the people, give it to them. President Bush did quite a few things I disagree with, and President Obama is currently on my bad side.

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[Jiggers]

Catlbob…are you also implying that I’m a rightwing racist now? Please… I’m niether left or right. I call it the way I see it. No more coffee for you this morning. And yes..I voted Obama in office. To voice a opinion about political issues, you just have to love it when you are labeled the “other way” when they disagree with you. One thing is though that Obama has come out and spoke openly about what he is/was going to do. Obama won’t make everyone happy. But it’s too early for me right now to make an opinion on Obama’s job performance.

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[JanS]

so, Jiggers, Sky2625…since you are unhappy with the way Pres. Obama is doing things, and you think his plans are wrong, please tell us what the right way would be….details, please. You both have put it out there, so tell us the better way. I want to know how, specifically, you would do things. And please don’t insult us with the “cut taxes”, etc, etc, same ol’, same ol’ generics. I want to know SPECIFICALLY what you think is a better way.

Thanks in advance :)

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[Jiggers]

In regards to Gaza…It’s simple Jan.. We need to spend our’s/your monie’s here in our own boarders to create long-term jobs to help stimulate the economy again. $900 million isn’t much on a grand scale, but throwing it away on folks that have been at each others throats for hundreds of years won’t help. Once they/we help rebuild their infrastructure, another little turf fight will start up once again and reduce the American tax-payers $$$$ to rubble. And I honestly doubt that the money will get into the right hands. When the money is gone, the fighting will go on. Don’t say I told you so.

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[Jiggers]

I don’t have the answers and don’t claim to have any answer to solve world problems. If I did, I would be the anti-christ….lol

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[c@lbob]

The Bush administration allowed our enforcer in the Middle East, Israel, to bomb the daylights out of Gaza to the day of Obama’s inaguration, then the bully boys took a few more shots after that.

No one in the world outside of the USA really thinks that Israel does anything without our approval. Who else is lining up to sell them fancy weapons and otherwise bolster their military.

We have to get everybody back to the negotiation table, and this spending on the Palestinians will be well worth it if that failure of Bush is salved.

Yep, you guys are right. I think the whole bunch who laugh at watermelon patches in front of the White House, cops killing a chimp that writes stimulus bills, praise for Obama for rising above the past of slavery in a response to an address to Congress are true sons of Sheriff Clark. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. And you are all sooooo innocent, who MEEE. Give me a break.

All right my naifs, a spade was and is a derogatory epithet for a black person, just slightly lower on the offensiveness scale than the n-word. It derives from black as the ace of spades. If you think spade is a commonly used term for a shovel in the 21st century, I wish to relieve you of this misconception. Call a shovel a shovel.

Jiggers, there ain’t nothing in the middle-of-the-road, ‘cept yellow lines and dead armadillos. I don’t believe anyone who leads with the talk radio talking point of the day is there, nor is Bill O’Reilly.

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[Ken]

WS freepers got nothing on the real thing.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2197363/posts

They just aspires to be as offensive as this chuckle nut.

(use caution when clicking on the above link. The local wingnuts are sane by comparison though I know a few who were booted off several years ago for not being pious enough fundamentalists or having the correct amount of foam in their mad dog racism. )

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[Jiggers]

The bottom line is if the money is supposed to get into the right hands and not Hamas, then it will help somewhat, but don’t hold your breath on it.

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[charlabob]

Um, Hamas is the democratically elected leader of the palestinians. I thought we LIKED democracy.

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[Sky2625]

Wowza…never heard “spade” used that way before. I didn’t know I could conjure up racism just by bringing to mind something that is simply colored black (like an ace of spades). I’m not racist, I don’t think in those terms. I don’t see a cartoon chimp and think “haha black guy!” But if I didn’t understand the meaning of “call a spade a spade”, then that’s on me.

Somebody provide me with a non-offensive shorthand phrase I can use that will roughly equate to “let’s cut the BS and look at something squarely and honestly” because that’s what I mean when I say “CALL A SPADE A SPADE!” Ridiculous!

AUUUGH!

Now let’s put aside idiotic discussions of non-existent racism, and actually get to the point. Per JanS’s request, here’s my personal recovery plan with *details*:

Sky2625’s Economic Adjustment and Recovery Act:

Fix the Credit Crunch:

Plank 1: Change marked-to-market accounting rules to allow banks to re-value their subprime assets at 50% of their cash inflow, rather than current sale price (low), or previous purchase price (high). This will vastly increase value of assets on each banks’ books, and stop a large portion of the write-downs, stock losses, and profit loss.

Plank 2: Firms currently deemed too big to fail, should be nationalized. The functioning parts should be sold off to the highest private bidders. The failing parts should be allowed to fail. Assets must be liquidated, with the government receiving the revenue, and all assets returning to the private sector.

Plank 3: Kill the zombie banks, per Plank 2.

Address the Recession:

Plank 1: Repeal the Stimulus Bill

Plank 2: Pass a capital improvement/ infrastructure construction project stimulus only ($200 – $250 billion).

Plank 3: Pass a Temporary Recession Aid package that expands unemployment benefits, food stamps, and housing assistance. A 9-month term is placed on this package. ($150-$200 billion).

Plank 4: End capital gains taxes. In the near term, this would slightly beef up the rate of return on those falling 401ks and home values.

Plank 5: Keep money in Americans’ hands. Cut tax rates by 20% for every tax bracket, i.e. the top bracket would go from 35% to 28%. (20% of 35% is 7% – Yes, the poor won’t get as much of a cut, but they don’t pay hardly any money *in* anyway)

Plank 6: Put to bed fears of deflation in the near term, and inflation in the long term. Peg the American dollar against a basket of common commodities. This returns a sense of stability to the future, and allows investing and lending to start up again. You can always pull it off the backing again later.

Plank 7: Go forward with Obama’s Home Foreclosure plan, but pat one only (Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac re-financing plans). Create a foreclosure-limbo, where the government offers loan servicers a payment of 60% the value of the loan. The servicers can choose to foreclose, or they can take the money and walk. The government ends up holding more loans. Regrettable, but temporarily helpful.

Prevent another Mortgage Bubble:

Plank 1: Stricter regulation of credit and bond rating agencies. Prevent bond issuers from paying for better ratings of their bonds. Change the industry so that private consumers pay for the ratings at their own risk.

Plank 2: Regulate credit default swaps by requiring capital asset backing in some proportion to the amount of payout risk a firm might face.

Plank 3: Increased SEC regulation of regular banks acting as investment banks. If it quacks like a bank, it’s a bank, and it must be subjected to the 10:1 leverage ratio.

Plank 4: Cease expansion of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Fully nationalize them. Prohibit any government entity from buying or lending anything but prime mortgages. Sell off their assets and close them down.

Plank 5: Limit the volume of FHA loans to 5% of the previous year’s total lending value (or stop altogether)

Plank 6: Require that loan originators hold, service, and bear the risk of 1 out of every ten loans of each type they originate.

Plank 7: Repeal the Community Reinvestment Act. Ban red-lining, but allow banks a freer hand in deciding who they will and will not lend to.

Plank 8: Long-term, base the mortgage finance industry on personal and business deposit-heavy private banks, not on leverage-heavy private and/or semi-public creditors.

Long-term Government Solvency:

Plank 1: Cut all government salaries across the board by 10%. Approximate savings = $35 billion.

Plank 2: Balance the budget. Put it to a vote by the people: either the Departments of Housing and Urban Development, Energy, Education, Health and Human Services, and Transportation are closed down immediately, and their funding is directed toward paying off the national debt, or taxes must increase by 15% uniformly to eliminate the deficit.

Plank 3: Reduce expenses on welfare and food stamps…pass these costs on to the states should they choose to continue these programs.

Plank 4: Alter Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security so that benefits only go to those most in need, i.e. lower income brackets and/or the seriously ill.

Plank 5: Work towards a tax system with less loopholes and more enforcement, while simultaneously cutting tax rates to maintain near-revenue-neutrality.

Plank 6: Pioneer a feedback system that allows taxpayers to designate where some of their taxes go. Let departments within the government compete for this money…

There’s a start.

There might be some good ideas in there…maybe not. Anyone else have any ideas?

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[JoB]

skylark2625..

according to most economists.. devaluing the toxic assets by 50% isn’t enough.. 20% is more realistic… 50% would be accurate if there had not been massive mortgage fraud which was translated to security fraud by our banks…

are you aware that most of our retirement funds hold those fraudulent security assets?

Who do you think will absorb those losses?

we agree that nationalizing failing banks would be a good idea…

but immediately selling off their assets to private investors simply means that you and i pick up the bill for all of those failed assets… twice… maybe not the best idea.

when the banks fail, business fails since business runs on credit… and then we lose even more jobs.

govt purchase of mortgages is not a bad idea… it’s what stabilized housing after the depression.

as for preventing another mortgage bubble.. all we really have to do is restore the line between private and commercial banking. if banks can no longer package their private loans as commodities and sell them, they lose all incentive for mortgage fraud. one in ten won’t do that… nor will gutting progressive programs that make it illegal to discriminate against borrowers on the basis of their race or sex or ….

do you really think ending capital gains tax will beef up our 401ks and home values?

capital gains only apply to appreciating assets and those assets are pretty hard to come by right now…

i suspect we could abolish capital gains this year and not see any affect on our economy…

cut the tax rate by 20%… sounds great.. but how exactly would that stimulate the economy?

wouldn’t it be smarter to enlarge the food stamp program to include those who are employed… food stamp dollars provide maximum stimulus.. they are actually spent.

a nine month term????

do you really think this will last only 9 months even with a stimulus package?

Current wisdom is if we allow the banks to fail we will no longer talk about the great depression because this one will be much worse… we have already exceeded the stock market losses that triggered the great depression.

and which common commodities would you like to peg the dollar to? Have you been following the futures market for commodities? it’s not looking so much healthier than the stock market.

as for your long term solvency programs…

you propose to drastically reduce the safety net programs and throw the cost of them onto the states…

where will the states get the money to fund them?

and if you end social security or tie it to the poverty level you effectively bankrupt an entire generation of middle class workers who invested in social security.

do you know what the minimum social security benefit is? depending upon the state.. it is between $500 and $1000… less than the cost of rent.

so who will feed those who no longer have the benefit of their social security checks?

not to mention medical care…

and why would you choose to close the governmental agencies that actually offer benefit to taxpayers.. “Departments of Housing and Urban Development, Energy, Education, Health and Human Services, and Transportation ” ??????

isn’t that sort of short sighted?

we are rapidly falling behind other industrialized nations in all measures of national health… health, education, transportation, infrastructure, etc….

unless we invest now that trend will only accelerate…

how can that possibly be good for the long term health of our nation?

***

as for calling a spade a spade…

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/call-a-spade-a-spade.html

it seems it’s origins predate the popular use of the term spade referring to Negros…

of course the term gay had meaning predating it’s current usage as well….

so maybe the jury is out on this.. though wikipedia currently agrees with you.

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[TheHouse]

The House is chuckling…..I never thought the libs would start turning against their own man so quickly. Those of you that are turning against him, I commend you for being able to see the errors Obama is making already.

Obama and Congress’s StimuLOSS package is useless and will hurt in the long run, not help and Hillary’s lips are more tired than Monica’s from pulling a Lewinsky on the Chinese (a Communist country, must I remind you)?

One thing the conservatives can always count on is the left imploding! I’ll just sit back and watch the debacle for the next 4 years and hope for the best.

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[charlabob]

Um, the left imploding? Let’s see — Limbaugh and Steele (and “anyone who criticize the pathetic Governor Jindal?”) Seems to me the right is doing a rather nice job with the circular firing squad. I, personally, won’t be sitting back and watching — I’ll be helping them lock and load.

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[Sky2625]

The theory behind my plan is that this recession is the end of an era of easy credit and dramatic upswings in asset values (i.e. our 401ks and house values are not likely going to reattain 2006 levels for at least a decade, maybe longer.) Propping up failing insititutions is not a worthwhile use of taxpayer funds, and trying to re-inflate the credit bubble to it’s pre-2007 level makes no kind of sense whatsoever. We’ve got to forge forward from here with less-leveraged credit, more savings, and a smarter, less internally-conflicted regulatory atmosphere.

Credit Freeze

Devaluing toxic assets: You describe the exact problem…the assets are worth so little that they cannot be sold for anything more than 20% their purchase price…which is how their value is assessed currently.

Allowing companies to revalue these assets at 50% of the cash inflow that each asset earns, dramatically increases the paper value of these assets. I admit, I’m not excited about creating wealth on paper, but a bank with more valuable assets tucked away will see itself as more stable, and can begin lending again…unsticking the credit freeze.

This is why I only give them a 50% cash flow consideration. If the banks can adopt smart business practices that entices a buyer to pay 80%, 90% 100% of the cash inflow for the assets, that great.

I am aware that our retirement accounts contain these assets…why do you think I want to improve how their value is assessed? :)

Nationalizing banks: Yep we agree that this might be a way to go…but I believe an orderly crash of failing banks is better than propping them up and injecting them with tens to hundreds of billions of dollars every three months (AIG), and getting nothing out of it but voters angry about CEO bonuses.

Yep, we the taxpayer are on the hook when the guvmint picks up the tab on failed banks. I forgot to mention, the compensation paid to banks for being nationalized would NOT take into consideration the new marked-to-market account rules. The government would pick up these assets for relatively cheap, sell off the profitable parts at a profit, and hold the unprofitable parts until they either a) gain enough value to sell at 0% profit, or b) dissect everything and make it a fire sale. With direct ownership of the assets, we get to sell off everything.

When banks fail, you’re right…less credit is available and this endangers the functioning of business. Are we any better off right now? This is why the profitable parts of failing banks must be sold off quickly: to inject more assets (lending capability) into the economy.

Why get rid of all the assets? In the long run, the private sector is more efficient and better at deciding where capital and labor should be allocated in the economy. Government control of even small portions of the economy results in waste, inefficieny, and even more corruption.

Govt puchase of mortgages: This operates under the same idea as nationalization of banks. Pick up homes on the cheap if the servicers are willing to sell. Sell them back to the private sector as soon as possible (i.e. when you can turn a 5% profit). While the government holds them, it charges the homeowner payments based on the government’s purchase value (reduced payments for homeowners – and no ARMs). Again money in the pockets of citizens, and a sense of stability…giving the ability to plan for the future.

Repeal of capital gains tax: I didn’t explain in-depth enough…my fault. This should be repael of cap gains and any taxe on 401k withdrawal. Short-term, it would allow anyone to pull their cash tax-free and walk. This helps put money back in American’s hands, helping them feel more wealthy and evoking a sense of stability, while crashing the stock market (which is already happening). Their assets they cashed out won’t lose anymore value, and they can move forward from there.

Long-term it will assist in fluidity of the market, and very long-term could actually contribute to volatility, as people pull money in and out of the markets on a whim, at which point this policy might need to come under review. However, leaving 0% cap gains in place would serve as an impetus for corporations to act even more responsibly in order to be more attractive to flighty investors.

Mortgage bubble: You’re partly right about investment banks and commercial banks needing to be kept separate. I chose not to go with that regulation because I’m also stopping Fannie Mae form lending and buying more mortgages to back.

So someone needs to keep selling off loans to keep the mortgage market moving, though with a better assessment of risk, and without being able to pass off the risk completely to someone else.

This is why I limit the leverage of both commercial and investment banks to 10%, readjust bond rating rules (this is critical – this and better reg by the SEC would knock down fraud quite a bit), and require loan originators to keep a minimum of 10% of the loans they make on their books.

Risk-sharing among the parties, and limits on leverage. Pit them against each other a bit more, give them some more oversight, and they won’t want or be able to be complicit in fraud.

20% tax cuts for all brackets: Again, this will put more money in the hands of Americans each month. This leads to a feeling of more wealth and stability, plus more consumer spending…which a large chunk of our economy is based on currently.

Personally, if I adjusted my federal withholding to account for a 20% tax cut, I’d be earning several hundred more a month. That has an effect. Though I wouldn’t be spending on consumer items, I would be paying down debt, cash flow that Mastercard and Wachovia would be glad to have. It increases their assets, their profits, keeps their employees employed, and allows them to make more loans.

Why not expand food stamps to people with jobs? Is this a real question? Because tax cuts are a cheaper way to disseminate no-strings-attached money throughout the economy. Because I believe a people freer to spend their money as they see fit, and not dependent on the governmetn, are a better, healthier people.

I know you’re going to hit me with that Moody’s report that says every food stamp dollar stimulates $1.73 of economic activity to the $1.03 of tax cut stimulus. I don’t know how accurate this is. And I’ll stick to my belief that non-dependence on government is a virtue to be fostered. Even if Moody’s is right, doing things the easy way is not necessarily right.

Recession Aid package: Nine-month term, understood by all as temporary. I hope it doesn’t last longer, but the aid can be extended for another 9-month term should it be needed. But it signals the intent of the government to help out where it can, and will not create rational expectations among the populace that they can always count on this government support. Aid receivers will have to take initiative and try to improve things for themselves, and the government can temporarily provide some aid. This is the definition of a safety net, not like the other nets in our society that are more like bomb shelters…places you want to hang out and stay safe. Self-reliance is a principle this country is built upon, and it needs to be fostered. Your heart is in the right place, but government intervention is not healthy for people in the long run.

Dollar commodities basket: I honestly don’t have an answer to this. It would require some reasearch to find the most stable group of items, and there’d have to be a lot of commodity types to level out volatility. it;s a temporary measure anyway, meant to drive out fears of deflation and inflation.

Long term solvency plans:

where do the states get the funding to take over “safety net” programs? By raising taxes, if the people will allow it. If not, then the states ought to foster private sector take-over of as much of the safety net as donations can support.

Don’t you see? Our deficit means that we are not collecting enough taxes to pay for government services. We must cut the services, or raise taxes, but we cannot raise taxes right now because it pulls more money out of the economy.

Social Security: No one invests in social security. they are forced to pay in, in order to support today’s seniors. The money I’m paying is already spent. The money that supposedly would pay for my benefits will be paid by people not even born yet. We must announce an end to social security. 2025. Done. No more pay-outs. We must all plan on that taking place.

Doing away with all those departments: again, we cannot afford it. Either we raise taxes to pay for them, or do away with them. Constitutionally, their missions belong to the states. If the states like those departments, then the states will have to raise taxes to do the things that those departments did. Most states have a balanced budget requirement you see…

Want a bunch of money thrown at various educational programs around your state? Great! Raise taxes in the state and continue those payments.

Maybe I’m wrong about this, but I do not think we are falling behind at a faster pace, nor do I think additonal spending is the way to catch us up, if such a thing is even worthwhile. I believe we’ve got quite a few advantages over the rest of the developed world, that this is the best place to live in the world, and will continue to be. I am not concerned at keeping up with the Joneses anyway. We can do more good for world health by spending those billions on mosquito and malaria control.

Spade a Spade: I’m glad you see I mean no offense. But this does not mean that some people will not be offended. There be monsters here. One must tread carefully.

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[c@lbob]

You’re still offending me, Clyde, for I know whence the rightie love of spadework comes from, your dear leader:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200801150021

Any more of this Republican humor and I’ll have to puke.

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[HMC Rich]

What is this? I agree with Sky!

On that other issue. I can see where some would be offended by the use of certain phrases even if they are unintentional. Then again, sticks and stones. I would prefer we view each other just as individuals with unique characteristics.

My wife is British and wanted to personalize a vanity plate. Unfortunately the word/phrase she wanted had been co-opted by a certain group or movement of which she was not aware of. I kind of like it when clever or nasty plates get through the DMV. Since I now mostly drive that car, I am glad she found out what the alternative definition was.

Let’s make this fair. You all offend me. Have a nice night jerks.

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[Jiggers]

Sky you are killing me with the long threads you post. Anyway’s, If anyone thinks it’s the Democrats fault, you are totally wrong. The Republicans have run this country into the ground for the last 8 years.

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[TheHouse]

Jiggers, the only people that ran this country into the ground were the people that have defaulted on the debts they agreed to pay (ie…mortgages). If people continued to pay their bills properly, businesses would not crumble.

I’ve stated before that placing blame is useless, but if you do your research it was the Dems that pushed for Freddie and Fannie to open up home ownership to more people (lowering credit standards). There was pressure on the front lines regarding sales, but the ultimate decision is made by the consumer to sign on the dotted line.

If it wasn’t for the Dems pushing for “entitlement” rights to own homes, then we most likely wouldn’t be in this mess.

Oh, and the war in Iraq has no direct correlation to the demise of the banking system…..

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[c@lbob]

It is amazing how little actual events interrupt the flow of bilge in the rightie mind.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein, (attributed)

US (German-born) physicist (1879 – 1955)

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[Author]

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