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March 14, 2008 at 2:26 pm #618372
beachdrivegirlParticipantI should prbably correct my post…it was actaully the summer of 2005 so it was more like 3 years ago not 2 years ago
March 14, 2008 at 5:24 pm #618373
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl..
i hear your story a lot from young people who are astounded to find out that much of the world doesn’t hate us.. they are just ashamed for us…
travel is a broadening experience.. especially when experienced at the backpack.. actually meet people.. level.
I am not ashamed of us… i am ashamed for us.. and i deliberately used those words when i described the reaction of individuals in other countries…
they like Americans a lot.. they just don’t like what America is saying and doing… and they couldn’t believe Americans were so idiotic as to elect Bush a second time.
Half of America agreed. Some of the rest are waking up. This is why this election is so important.
We need a leader who thinks it is essential to “sit down” with others… to negotiate.. using every tool at our disposal… to find a compromise that will allow the middle eastern nations.. sovereignty and still protect our interests.
We have to leave Iraq.. at least we have to stop being an occupying army in Iraq. It won’t happen over night no matter what promises are made.. and with luck we won’t have Iran to withdraw from as well… but eventually we will have to leave. it isn’t our country and was never ours to invade.
I watched Michael Palin’s travels in Eastern Europe last night and one of his observations was relevant. He said that as Europe was moving towards economic and political cohesion.. more small states were breaking away from uneasy alliances (long term occupation) and finding their own identity.
Thee is plenty of room in the world for differences… our way or the hiway… never has worked as a slogan for me…
March 14, 2008 at 5:32 pm #618374
AnonymousInactivebdg – I was also overseas when the war broke out. We were in Brussels and I remember our taxi driver realizing we were American and he kept shaking his head saying, “Bush, Bush.”. I’ve NEVER not been proud to be American and we certainly never hid the fact that we were American. I just think that is discouraging that our possible First Lady has never been proud of her own country. A country her own husband wants to run.
JoB- I like you too, a lot. You’re just a lot smarter and a lot more eloquent than I can ever hope to be and that is why I am ambivalent about debating with you. I think you will always win.
Charla – We can start on those drinks whenever you’re ready! How about Sunday?
March 14, 2008 at 6:55 pm #618375
beachdrivegirlParticipantNR-I was traveling by myself, staying in hostels. I am sorry but–hanging out by myself day in and day out did not seem like fun to me. And furthermore, when you stay in a hostel, you are basically sharing a room with typically at least four to five other adults. I didnt want to become a “target”. Yes, I wasnt proud, I felt like my country had failed me or possible I had failed my country because Bush got elected. I take it from the “we” in your comment that you weren’t alone, I wonder how you would have felt if you were by yourself.
March 14, 2008 at 7:48 pm #618376
AnonymousInactiveYou’re right, BDG, I was traveling with my husband (boyfriend at the time) and he has traveled A LOT and I was nervous about even going on the trip because of the timing. The war had literally JUST started.
Being by myself would have been a completely different story and I, personally, can’t imagine. I never remember, though, anyone being rude or threatening towards us. Most of the time, people wanted to talk to us to see how we felt about everything that was going on. I don’t remember ever being held personally accountable for what our country did.
But, you can say what you want about America, a lot of people knock it, even Americans. I am still proud of my country and proud to be American. I always have been and always will be.
Please understand, BDG, this is in no way a “I’m better than you” stance that I’m taking, I just think it is a choice you make. Your circumstances were completely different and I can’t pretend to put myself in your shoes, but I don’t think Michelle Obama was traveling with a backpack and staying in hostels when she stated that.
March 15, 2008 at 12:56 am #618377
JoBParticipantNew Resident.. being proud to be an American and being proud of what your country is doing are two entirely different things.
had i been beachdrivefirl.. i would have stuck anything on my backpack that would have made me less of a target for those who wanted to vent their anger. That is no way to spend your hard earned vacation.. especially one like that which you may only get once.
There is such a difference traveling by public transit and staying in hostels than using taxis and staying in hotels that are catering to tourists.
I am jealous beachdrivegirl.. i somehow thought that in my older age.. one of those backpack rambling vacations.. connecting with those who live a more rudimentary… life was still in my future. sadly, it’s not. I don’t thin a backpack would even hold the meds and treatments that make my living possible… my car is my backpack now:)
it’s good that i have memories. And a daughter i can live vicariously through. she is headed to china in may… and japan next year. and who knows where in between.. she was in Bucharest last year. sigh….
new resident… I am proud to be an American, but i am not proud of what we have done in the middle east. I am not proud of what our CIA has done spiriting people away to foreign jails with no due process. I am not proud of our prison in cuba. i am not proud of the dog and pony show trials that we are going to be treated to later this summer and fall of some of those prisoners where the defendants basically will be denied what we know of as due process and where the trial’s outcome is already known. I am not proud that our government reserves the right to invade any citizen’s privacy .. whether that is their home or their communication.. with no due process and no notification that you have been under scrutiny.. except perhaps the next time you try to travel and find yourself on a list… then good luck finding out why you are there or getting yourself off… I am not proud that we are a nation who thinks it better to subsidize oil companies (who are making record profits) than to cover all children and pregnant mothers with health care.
I could go on… but it would only make me sad…
I love America.
No matter how many times i am told love it (agree with wrongdoing) or leave it.. i refuse to go.
I believe in the American people… even those i believe misinformed and misguided…
of course my hubby tells me i am incurably optimistic… i don’t see it.. but i think it’s a good thing.
March 15, 2008 at 2:42 am #618378
charlabobParticipantWe love your optimism, JoB — that’s why we wonder why you’re not part of the “Yes I Can” campaign. Yet. :-)
March 15, 2008 at 2:46 am #618379
charlabobParticipantI believe in JoB and Michelle Obama and all the other folks who love the United States enough to try to make her better and wrest control from the people who want to destroy her in support of corporatist profit.
It takes much more courage to speak out and fight wrongdoing than it does to “shut up and take it.” It is not love to just accept what your kids, your spouse, your religious institution, your local government, or your country does.
Thank you JoB and everyone else who fights every day to reclaim our country.
c/b
March 15, 2008 at 3:33 am #618380
JanSParticipanttwo things…1.Obama has publicly rejected the things that Jeremiah Wright has said..about blacks, this country causing terrorism, etc….so glad that he did.
and 2. Since this is the McCain thread, JoB, this one’s for you :)
March 15, 2008 at 4:33 am #618381
JoBParticipanti don’t think McCain and his wife file jointly.. and that is where all the money is…
March 15, 2008 at 4:43 am #618382
AnonymousInactiveis your daughter going to be backpacking and staying in hostels or traveling, as you stated that I did, luxuriously and catered to?
You can be jealous of someone traveling by backpack going from hostel to hostel, but, as much as I’ve traveled overseas, you run into all the same people. Regardless of HOW I traveled, I have had similar experiences and run into all the same people.
And I actually have been cleared by the FAA and National Security, I hold a card that confirms that. So, no, JoB, I don’t worry about being on “some list”. Did you just watch the movie “Rendition”?
It’s ridiculous. You’re looking for faults in your own country. I’m sorry
March 15, 2008 at 4:48 am #618383
AnonymousInactiveOh, okay. So Obama said that what his pastor said is NOT ok, so that’s done. Enough with that. Are you kidding me?!!!
He knows very well that his pastor feels that way and has felt that way for a LONG time. It’s very easy for him to say that he doesn’t agree with it NOW. Let me remind you, he still stands behind this pastor and respects him. He has been listening to his sermons for over 20 years. He knew d**n well what his pastor’s thoughts and beliefs were ALL ALONG!!
March 15, 2008 at 4:55 am #618384
AnonymousInactiveUm, charlabob, Michelle Obama doesn’t love the United States. She has stated that publicly.
March 15, 2008 at 6:24 am #618385
JanSParticipantumm..NR…let’s give them both a break…go back and read Michelle Obama’s complete statement…and why shouldn/t we believe Barack Obama as much as you would believe John McCain if he rejected someone’s statements. What Jeremiah Wright said has to do with Jeremiah Wright. I believe Mr. Obama when he says he has separated himself from Rev. Wright (who is no longer the pastor of his church)….and removed Mr. Wright as an advisor of any kind. No one doubted Mrs. Clinton when she said that she rejected what Geraldine Ferraro had said. They been friends, and Ms Ferraro has been an advisor of Mrs. Clinton’s for many years…Ms. Ferraro even said the very same words, word for word, against Jesse Jackson, many years ago. You didn’t doubt Hillary’s rejection…why so quick to believe the worst about Senator Obama?
March 15, 2008 at 6:26 am #618386
JanSParticipantoh, and, NR, point out to me exactly where Mrs. Obama said that she did not love America. Please don’t tell me that you’re buying into the ignorant story of the Obama’s being secretly Muslim, and doing this to allow terrorism to bring down America….please don’t tell me that…please, please…
March 15, 2008 at 6:42 am #618387
AnonymousInactiveNo, JanS. Just like Clinton, I have no reason to believe that Obama is Muslim. Michelle Obama stated that she is not proud of her country. It was in the Wall Street Journal yesterday. It was a direct quote.
You cannot compare the pastor’s comments with Ferraro’s, I think.
Believe what you want, JanS, but the fact that Obama has had a very close relationship with his pastor for the past 20 years is very telling. He knew, and has always known, exactly how this particular person felt and his beliefs and views. The pastor just recently retired (conveniently).
What Ferraro said was true. It’s not racist to say that Obama is where he is today because he is a black man. Hillary is where she is today because she is a woman. What is wrong with that? I have read over and over again, on this forum, that being black or being a woman is an advantage. Well, what’s wrong with saying that?
What Obama’s pastor has said (and I haven’t even heard all of it) goes well beyond what Ferraro ever said.
And, what has anyone said (so far, it’s still early) from McCain’s camp that he has had to reject?
March 15, 2008 at 6:58 am #618388
JanSParticipantI know..Mr. Mc Cain is a saint…I got that…yes, I’m tired, I’m being sarcastic…I apologize…but I will argue…she did not say she did not LOVE America..yes, she has a lot of reasons to not be proud of America…many of us feel that way…she vocalized it, and therein lies the rub.
we do not love our country any less because we are not proud of it and where it’s at today.
I truly believe that Jeremiah Wright said some despicable things. I truly believe that Barack Obama doesn’t not feel the same way…it does not rub off like wet paint. If he says that the things that were said are despicable, then I believe him…
I wish I had a magic wand to make all the dirt that will be dished in the future to go away. We all know that it’s going to get worse. The Republicans have their man…they don’t have to be divisive. The Dems have to wake up and reject the divisiveness for the good of the party, else, as one video in the “link” thread said…we will have John McCain for a third Bush term….
and that makes me the angriest…
March 15, 2008 at 7:09 am #618389
AnonymousInactiveI agree with you, JanS. The Dem’s are leaving nothing for the Republican’s to do.
March 15, 2008 at 7:25 am #618390
JanSParticipantNR,,,I suppose I really feel a bit like this oped piece…
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0314edit1mar14,0,1043933.story
March 15, 2008 at 6:43 pm #618391
beachdrivegirlParticipantJoB: Yes I was very fortunate to get to travel especially for so long. It was probably one of the best things I have ever done for myself and HIGHLY recommend to everyone I talk to. When you are by yourself in another country it really gives you a chance to open up and discover stuff about yourself and others that i don’t think many people get enough of a chance to do.
NR: Two things. First, have you stayed in hostels backpacking and traveling around by yourself? I have and I have stayed in nice hotels and traveled around. You dont meet all the same people.Yes you meet them on the outside, but you dont open up to one another the way you do in a backpacking environment. I dont think that JoB is looking for faults in her own country. I think she is a smart enough women to actually take off the rose colored glasses that you must be wearing to see reality. have you ever known someone that goes to AA? The first step in the process is ADMITTING that there is a problem…hmm looks like some of us on this blog are doing that…one last quick question… so because I am catholic and there have been many Catholic priests being accused of child molestation, does that make me guilty by association?(Afterall, my family, did have our Father over for dinner typically…so he was a close family friend and all..)
March 15, 2008 at 6:49 pm #618392March 15, 2008 at 6:58 pm #618393
AnonymousInactiveBDG, priest comparison is not quite the same. If your personal priest was the molester, had proof of it on DVD, and your response was “well, he didn’t molest me”, then we could evaluate your continued association.
March 15, 2008 at 8:22 pm #618394
charlabobParticipantMcCain hasn’t done or said anything he has to apologize for because he doesn’t apologize. Hideous generalization alert: Republicans don’t apologize.
If he were a Democrat, he’d have to apologize for and and disown his endorsement by this hate monger — http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/29/eveningnews/main3894660.shtml
Speaking of religion, McCain now claims to have been a Baptist (instead of Episcopalian) for the past 15 years. See, the deal is you have to be baptized (by immersion, even) to be Baptist — hence the name. I’ll let the Washington Times (not exactly a liberal rag — owned by Rev. Moon) explain it:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070918/NATION/109180077/1001
March 15, 2008 at 11:18 pm #618395
JanSParticipantBDG and Charla…thanks for those links… I look forward to more information about McCain…let’s pick on him for a while :)
March 15, 2008 at 11:45 pm #618396
JoBParticipantNew resident.. my daughter and i have both been privileged to do both kinds of traveling.. the indulged and the not so…
somehow i don’t think the university is going to indulge her on her trip to China.. but for the conference she is likely to be staying in American style accommodations… which can be a real indulgence… and is likely to include mostly foreigners…
i think after the conference she will be staying with the friends of one of her old co-workers from Seattle.. who actually graduated from that school. so.. who knows what that means?
When she is in the field (which she will be for part of this trip and the one to japan) she is as likely to sleep in a hut as in a hotel…
One of her trips to South America while inspecting dam sites had her sleeping on barely tanned furs in huts and supplementing her diet with junk food from vending machines… and was her first exposure to lice… she now goes prepared:)
In Budapest she was in a hostel…
i won’t bore you with my many ramblings when younger… tho i travel in some style most of the time these days.. i still prefer very small b&bs to hotels…
There is a huge difference in how much you get to interact with locals when you stay in small b&bs, homes, hostels or camp than when you stay in hotels, even mid level hotels. From the first, you are as likely to interact in the grocery or in the local square.. in the latter you find yourself where there are generally more tourists than locals.. tho like all generalizations.. there are certainly exceptions to the rule.
in hostels and pubs, when that closeness is fueled with a bottle of wine or two … or the local beer.. or.., :)… the conversation can get pretty interesting.
Can you tell that i think the best thing about traveling is the opportunity to meet people who think differently than i do and have the opportunity for a little frank exchange?
i suppose not much different from what i enjoy here ;->
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