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June 13, 2012 at 2:40 pm #603590
JoBParticipantit appears that when it comes to education, money does matter.
247Wall street crunched the numbers to find the richest school districts in America and compared dollars to educational outcomes.
does it surprise anyone that the school districts who excelled spent about 15 grand more per pupil than those who didn’t?
http://247wallst.com/2012/06/06/americas-richest-school-districts/
if you spend more money for smaller classrooms, better qualified teachers and educational resources.. it pays off in test scores, college admissions and the rate of advanced degrees…
the surprise is that the only school outside of the burbs of New York to end up in the top ten is the Riverside district of Portland, Or…
perhaps that is because private schools didn’t figure into that equation.
June 13, 2012 at 3:23 pm #760784
kootchmanMemberHow is that wealth utilized? There is no accounting for the intangibles. Wealthy districts are populated with parents who have a value set that promotes better grades, college as an expectation, they go to school better prepared. Better literacy. As I have said to a couple of puffed up administrators and teachers in two of the privates schools… you are given better raw material to work with. That’s a parental achievement you get the benefits of.
Reviewing the data ypu linked to. There is no data that suggests class sizes are smaller. Those resources may include state of the art pools, athletic facilities, the data doesn’t make qualitative or quantitative statements about teachers. In Seattle, Catholic schools have larger class sizes in K-8. I am not seeking argument here, but they perform far better academically and when you track the graduation rates and college attendance, they outperform public schools. The teachers are not as well compensated. Their cost per student is far lower the public school system, by thousands.
The trifecta is… mandatory parental involvement. Students who can adhere to a behavior code, students who arrive in better shape to start the education process.
Second, and importantly. Parents with that level of education and who pay that much money, are not passive regarding education either. I can assure you, bad teachers are not kept on the payroll. The better cadre of teachers is easier to attract and retain when their work environment is mostly defined by the kids they have in the classroom.
There are striking exceptions. Money doesn’t change everything. How you use those resources does.
June 13, 2012 at 3:41 pm #760785
JoBParticipantkootch..
“Money doesn’t change everything. How you use those resources does. “
one little caveat…
it is so much easier to utilize those resources when you actually have them.
so hard when you don’t.
“The better cadre of teachers is easier to attract and retain when their work environment is mostly defined by the kids they have in the classroom. “
and by class size kootch…
which is controlled by dollars.
blow smoke all you want to …
the truth is that the dollars we spend on education pay off
our nation proved that when they invested in schools following World War II.
American schools were the best in the world
until some bright bulb got the notion that they weren’t cost effective
there is a direct relationship between dwindling investment in public education
and dwindling outcomes.
June 13, 2012 at 5:06 pm #760786
kootchmanMemberJoB… this is a labor tactic to increase membership. Repeated so often it becomes “common knowledge”….
and by class size kootch…which is controlled by dollars. I tend to agree. But it is NOT the only determinant.
‘We spend more NOW.. by far, then we did post WW2 dollars. Adjusted by inflation, in constant dollars, anyway you want to slice it.
I know better. My critter never saw a class with less than 28 kids until HS. I also know the decorum of the students and the teachers made this possible. Behavior standards in the classroom.
http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/they-spend-what-real-cost-public-schools
You can dimiss it… Cato report… so it can’t be right.
Let’s use then, US Department of Education Statistics
Where is the Money Going?
According to the National Education Association, education funding has not kept pace with increases in enrollment or with the costs of educating a diverse student body and its varied needs.
However, the statistics released by the Department of Education tell a different story. Spending per pupil in public schools tripled in a 30 year period, and has more than doubled in the last 15 years.
http://education-portal.com/articles/Public_Education_Spending_Has_Doubled_in_the_Last_15_Years.html
You can argue for reform, smaller class sizes, but you cannot argue the public has been cheap, underfunded schools, quite the contrary, we spend a lot of money and have increased spending per annum almost continuously.
June 13, 2012 at 5:31 pm #760787
JanSParticipantI swear, Kootch, if JoB came on here and said the sky was blue, that you would argue the point, and tell her, well, not actually, you just think it’s blue…but it’s really green, you progressives just don’t see the clear picture of what the sky really is.
June 13, 2012 at 5:35 pm #760788
DBPMemberJo: What is the left/right part of this?
Are people on the right against education, or do they just have different ideas about how it should be done? If so, how can we reconcile the two views?
June 13, 2012 at 6:11 pm #760789
kootchmanMemberI swear Jan…, spending more tax money or regulating someone else is not the answer to every problem. when you make a statement like.. we spend less for education. and that statement is contradicted not just by “our” version of Politico… but the statistics of the federal government… we should all jump up and say … I agree… it’s not true.. but I agree. Did you have something to add or just nanny sitting today?
June 13, 2012 at 6:55 pm #760790
skeeterParticipantHold on! We’re all really smart people, and we need to be careful to understand the difference between causality and correlation.
The more money we spend on education, the better the students perform?
No way.
I attended a small Catholic High School in Northern Virginia in the late 80s/early 90s. My class was about 300. We had 9 national merit scholars (I wasn’t one of them!) and the graduation rate was 100%. The school cost $4,000 per year and spending per student was $4,000 per year.
In neighboring Washington D.C., the ENTIRE school system did not produce a single national merit scholar the year I graduated from High School. I don’t remember the student population, but it was many thousand. The graduation rate was right around 55%.
Do you think Washington D.C. spent more or less than $4,000 per student per year?
I’ll tell you. D.C. spent $10,500 per student per year back then.
There is not a causal relationship between education spending and student performance.
We cannot buy our way out of the education gap.
June 13, 2012 at 7:08 pm #760791
BostonmanMemberTeaching starts at home. I could pay $20,000 per kid and if they get out of school and their parents let them play video games all night long, don’t put them to bed at a reasonable hour and don’t feed them a good dinner then that is the problem. Has nothing to do with spending per child. My guess is in the more affluent neighborhoods the parents understand the need for a good education and make it a priority when the kids aren’t in school.
June 13, 2012 at 7:13 pm #760792
skeeterParticipantJob (#33)
“there is a direct relationship between dwindling investment in public education
and dwindling outcomes.”
Question: Is it possible there is a hidden third variable that explains the dwindling outcomes?
June 13, 2012 at 7:30 pm #760793
JanSParticipantBostonman..I don’t believe it’s necessarily true that the less money you have the more you’re going to neglect your children.
June 13, 2012 at 7:41 pm #760794
skeeterParticipantJune 13, 2012 at 7:42 pm #760795
BostonmanMemberDo believe there is a correlation between education and income? Educated parents earning more money will instill that same value on their kids. I am not quantifying education with a grade level either, you can graduate high school with a trade and still make a great living but you still need to be smart to do so.
My parents had nothing more than high school educations but they made a good living and understood the value of an education. They made that a value to my brother and I and I make it one for my kids. If they didn’t put a value on it then I likely would not be where I am today.
June 13, 2012 at 7:44 pm #760796
BostonmanMemberThe comparison wasn’t about income and neglect it was about education and income and how that affects your parental values.
June 13, 2012 at 9:55 pm #760797
DBPMemberHi Boston! Though we often disagree, I’m sure you’re a great parent and are instilling good values in your kids. Notwithstanding this, don’t be surprised if they take very different life paths from you. Kind of goes with the territory.
Let me ask you this: What do you think about the current state of public education? What would you change about it, if you could?
June 13, 2012 at 10:09 pm #760798
JanSParticipantso, Bostonman, if I have struggled financially, and am not financially well off, are you saying that my values are different than yours as a parent? that mine are somehow less as a general rule? That money makes for better values? Are you talking about morality? or saying that someone financially well off has children that value a buck more? I’m not sure I’m getting your point, I guess.
a quote I just read today from Chris Hedges:
“We’ve bought into the idea that education is about training and “success”, defined monetarily, rather than learning to think critically and to challenge. We should not forget that the true purpose of education is to make minds, not careers. A culture that does not grasp the vital interplay between morality and power, which mistakes management techniques for wisdom, which fails to understand that the measure of a civilization is its compassion, not its speed or ability to consume, condemns itself to death.”
June 13, 2012 at 11:12 pm #760799
kootchmanMemberJune 13, 2012 at 11:21 pm #760800
kootchmanMemberHere is the dilema. We are looking at the school system for the poor results. Frankly, I don’t lay the blame squarely on the school door step. I “blame” what we send to the school. The kids who are there to be educated.
we don’t have the political courage to address the “problem” other than give more money to the schools. Politicians are afraid to tell the parents… your value set sucks. you send kids to skill with a “educate me, I dare you” attitude. Turn off the damn television set. USE the library system if you can’t afford the books. Poverty makes the job harder.. not impossible. Your kids don’t have prayer in hell… you will attend funerals and make prison visits or raise your grandchildren if you don’t get busy. Get up and tell the truth. You as parents are not doing your jobs. Headstart doesn’t transfer values … kids observing parents reading, doing word search games in the back of the newspaper with them, crossword puzzles, I Spy, .. that’s where they pick up those values. JaN I agree with you, you are not mandated to neglect your children if you are poor. who was poorer than Abraham Lincoln? Imagine the workload of a frontier woman in 1830… yet, the value of education was passed along. Even if you didn’t have the experience yourself… is there any doubt that you must instill that value?
The litany of taxes liberals want to impose… as if money was “the solution” Or, raise taxes on the 10% 1% property owners. Regulations laws, rules etc.. let’s reverse the roles.
1. If your kids aren’t up to grade standards, it is against the law to have video games or cable television in your home.
2. If you don’t attend at least 150 hours of on site volunteer work, every year your children are enrolled, it’s a Class B misdemeanor child neglect.
3. Tie state and federal benefits to school attendance and grades. Assign curfews to underperforming students.
4. Stop the self esteem and political indoctrination// get down to establishing rules and behaviors that are acceptable. Disturbance in interference in another childs education, be it bullying, class disruption is a major faux paux … big offense. Lay the law down early and often.
5. Raise your children. Don’t drop the task on me, on teachers, … and if your parenting skills suck so bad… you get court appointed attendance at parent skill building classes, No excuses, treat it with the gravitas that you would treat parole or probation violations.
Afraid to appear PC averse?
Now, there ya go… regulate the behavior of those who need their behavior regulated…. point your finger at the problem. Always the first step in solving a problem is identifying it.
June 13, 2012 at 11:33 pm #760801
BostonmanMemberJan they are called generalizations for a reason I am sure you could find exceptions to every rule.
DBP, my kids are only in 2nd and 1st grade and the other 2 aren’t in school yet. So beyond that my experience is from the 80’s and 90’s of which I think I have an amazing comparision and I will explain why.
Me, product of public school my whole life. Went to trade school and became an electriction. My brother, went to private school his whole life (you can see the favoritism already right ;)). His yearly education at the time ranged between $4k a yr to $7k a year and he teaches at that school now and its $23k a year.
Now for all intensive purposes I make twice as much money as him but I guarentee that he is three times smarter than me, has better study habits and got better grades. He also has more degrees than I do and can speak 5 languages.
I would say that at the time I went to school there probably wasn’t much difference so long as you stuck to the books (which I did), honor roll, super honor roll and 4.0 GPA’s. Nowadays I am not so sure though, like I said I only have kids in 1st and 2nd grade but Alki seems to be a fantastic school and my kids are learning things in 1st and 2nd grade that I didn’t learn. So I would say public schools are doing ok (here). Go a few miles south or to lower income areas and the scores at those schools drop drastically.
If its not the parents fault then its the teachers fault but more money won’t solve the problem. I certainly don’t want to throw more money at the problem without certain concessions from the teachers unions.
June 13, 2012 at 11:36 pm #760802
BostonmanMemberOh and the city I grew up in, not one of the nice areas of Boston I can tell you that right now. Some friends I graduated with have kids that go to those schools now, other than overcrowding they tell me its pretty much the same.
June 13, 2012 at 11:48 pm #760803
kootchmanMemberFirst step? Eliminate tenure.
Second Step.. vouchers and charter schools.
when parents can make choices, they have options. Moribund, mediocre schools die off.
June 14, 2012 at 2:41 am #760804
JoBParticipantall i can do is shake my head
and wonder….
i can’t tell you what i wonder
because some of you might think i am calling you names if i did
June 14, 2012 at 4:25 am #760805
DBPMemberkootchman, I agree with many of your sentiments on this, but . . . child neglect charges for parents who don’t do community service? Come on, dude. Most people would tune you out after that. Which is a shame, because except for those parts, you make some pretty good points.
Boston: I hear ya on the “throwing money away” thing, but you’re still on the hook for coming up with an alternative. You’ve got to at least engage with the teachers on this.
As for me, I agree that teacher pay and benefits should be at least partly performance-based. After ten years of faithfully voting for bond issues, I’m tired of hearing schools and teachers tell us they can’t deliver results.
Although I’m no longer sympathetic to pay increases, I’m still in favor of class-size reductions, because that’s something that will benefit both teachers and kids immediately. It’s also something we can measure. For example, if we are told that class size is going to be reduced to say, 25 kids per classroom, and then it isn’t reduced, there can be some accountability there.
That’s all conservatives are asking for really, right?
Accountability.
June 14, 2012 at 4:32 am #760806
redblackParticipantSecond Step.. vouchers and charter schools.
FAIL
higher costs. lower results. all on the taxpayers’ dimes. proven all across the country.
oh! oh! except in the affluent suburbs!
what else ya’ got?
June 14, 2012 at 9:19 pm #760807
kootchmanMemberwrong only in the labor view. wanna see the videos of the Harlem school where the applicants desperate to get out of the PS system outnumber the spaces 6:1 … and they have to use a random lottery. You SAY it isn’t working, the NEA is scared and running.. because if they all failed… why are they still growing and expanding? The places they aren’t …? .. well there aren’t many are there? By vote of their feet… Charter Schools are growing. That’s hard to do when parents have choices… if they were failing, why are they growing?
Ya got nothing…. humpty dumpty is cracking dude…
Democrats for Education Reform (hard to believe eh?)
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