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January 9, 2011 at 4:33 am #711699
JanSParticipantFor the record..I feel our senior citizens deserve more respect than what you seem to be willing to give them. The Japanese revere their elders…they don’t hope that they’ll die an early death so things will cost less for themselves. They take care of them, and rightly so.
January 9, 2011 at 5:21 am #711700
miwsParticipanthoop, my Mom died in 1967 at age 38.5. My Dad died in 1972, just a few months shy of 47. My step-Mother died in 1973, a few months shy of 56.
They, as well as other family and friends that died over the years, at way too young of an age will not cost you anything.
Your Welcome.
Mike
January 9, 2011 at 5:27 am #711701
hooper1961Memberthe US is trillions in debt; thus tax loopholes need to be eliminated (i agree the rich need to pay more) and services cut (choices have to be made) to start paying back the money owed.
not a great analogy i have an old vehicle that was not running well, if the fix was leaking manifold/engine issue, spending money to fix it would not make sense and simply running it until the end was the choice. on the other hand replacing the spark plugs or other cost effective solution made sense. with infinite resources no choices have to be made but if you have a budget choices have to be made.
my mom is elderly and has filled out the form DO NOT MAKE HEROIC EFFORTS TO KEEP ME ALIVE, give it a good college effort that is it. she had a knee operation to alleviate pain a few years back (like replacing the spark plugs, the engine was still working fine). She is enjoying her last phase of life but would rather be 6′ under than a vegetable.
January 9, 2011 at 5:36 am #711702
hooper1961Membermiws my issue with social security is lack of choice and that it on average is paying current retirees more than they contributed into the system.
btw my dad died young to, at 59. they lived frugally and saved and other than social security my mom pays for her retirement without government help. yet many other retired people that made the same money as my old man lived on the edge (did not save) during their working years and now want the government to bail them out. these people that made poor choices need to be accountable and not bailed out.
January 9, 2011 at 5:38 am #711703
JanSParticipantwhat? so lets just kill off the old folks so the country can have money:? I guarantee you, there are other things that can be cut. For instance, in Arizona, Gov. Brewer has told the 90 transplant people waiting for transplants that they’re basically gonna die because she has cut the funds that will pay for them…to save the state money. Two have already died. Yet, she wants to spend 2.2 million dollars on a study of algae and refuses to cut it. You tell me what is right about that.
We would all like to be able to die peacefully, in no pain,instead of in a vegetative state. That’s not what you’re saying…you’re saying, the way I understand it, that old folks shouldn’t be given treatment, period. Of course, we all have directives. Mine will be the same. You are saying it should be mandated…talking about two different things. I still want to know who would be the decider. You get treatment, you don’t…next…
January 9, 2011 at 5:49 am #711704
JanSParticipantHappy to hear that your parents, your family did everything right…sorry that everyone isn’t a carbon copy. And a lot of these people had things happen that weren’t foreseen. Life would be wonderful if we all knew what was to be down the road…but we don’t. Sh*t happens when we least expect it. It did to me. I won’t bore you with the story, but understand this. At the age of 50 I almost lost my life, I lost what small business I had , being in business for only a year, then I lost my home, had absolutely no income for a year due to recovering from a serious illness, had no help from anyone because i had a small amt.l of money form a divorce, had a 15 yo child…and had to start over from scratch with no money in the bank at all.Oh, but I should have had the foresight to buy into the high risk pool? Laughable. And here I am 13 plus years later, have a small business, do OK for the most part, have learned the difference between need and want. I never got help from anyone until I got cancer in 2005…and I didn’t ask for that help…it was offered. I ‘m so sorry that I can’t live in the past and change things to make you happier, to make your bottom line better. I apologize for being a burden on you. And I apologize for not knowing that this crap would happen to me. I will live a long life, I hope, and swallow my pride, and take the help where I can get it.
I’m done here :)
January 9, 2011 at 5:55 am #711705
miwsParticipant“……but would rather be 6′ under than a vegetable”.
As I’m sure most people would.
You’re talking end stage there. What I think most of us are talking about is when there is a treatment that if successful, can allow the person to have several more years of a relatively decent quality of life.
I sure hope that the wealthy are investing heavily in robotics technology, that will cover every aspect of society. Because, the way things are going with Boehner and his goons having the majority in Congress, the wealthy are going to be the only ones that will be able to have their health issues addressed, and with the rest of us dying off, there will be nobody around to flip their burgers, scrub their toilets, and change the oil in their cars.
Mike
January 9, 2011 at 6:00 am #711706
jamminjMemberjust amazed at what people will say and do/believe for a few extra bucks on their tax return… just sayin.
January 9, 2011 at 6:23 am #711707
JoBParticipantjamminj
me too…
of course we could pass the law to end life at 70
and not a single cent would show up on hoop’s tax return…
it would go the same place all the rest of the money has gone.
hooper 1961
really.. the tax loops for the rich should be closed too?
really?
but let’s kill off the weak first?
truly.. you really should be ashamed of yourself for what you are saying.
I am just guessing here.. but i would bet your mother wouldn’t approve.
you can take care of yourself just fine without taking away from others.
January 9, 2011 at 6:51 am #711708
jamminjMembermy tax rates have fluctuated over the years… but on those years that were higher… I never caught myself wishing that the elderly would off themselves so my rate might be reduced a few % points.
Not sure if the person who thinks like this is worthy of any sympathy, or if anger is the more appropriate reaction… just never knew/heard anyone like this, just stunned mostly I guess at how others value human lives -or don’t in this case.
January 9, 2011 at 7:09 am #711709
hooper1961Membermiws –
“………You’re talking end stage there. What I think most of us are talking about is when there is a treatment that if successful, can allow the person to have several more years of a relatively decent quality of life……..”
If you are talking several more years that is a far cry from some very pricey treatments that add a month or two. It still gets to the vicious item there is only so much money, yes close the tax loopholes but the reality still exists money does not grow trees. yes they are currently printing it fast but the blank will hit the fan soon.
I would like to know at what point is the bank emptied out? Yes you can add some to the bank via closing loopholes and taxes on the truly wealthy. But the interest payments on the existing debt keep adding up and up.
The fact is you can make some money selling high priced items (ie taxes on the wealthy) or a lot of money selling a lot of product via low profit margins (taxes on the middle class). The US credit card debt is already a huge burden and we need to stop borrowing from future generations for consumption items.
January 9, 2011 at 7:16 am #711710
JoBParticipanthooper1961
the problem with healthcare as it currently stands in the United States is that too many people look at it as a commodity that is sold…
healthcare isn’t about money to those who need it
it’s about lives …
I don’t care whether you are a teenager
or the middle aged man you pose as here…
the shit hitting the fan is yours
January 9, 2011 at 7:25 am #711711
hooper1961Memberjob – i agree with you that to many people look at it as a commodity and when they need it expect someone else to pay for it.
miws in comment 157 touched the issue, end stage – hospice care or horrendously expensive last ditch treatments to add a month or two?
the shit hitting the fan will effect all future us citizens with so much debt it is scary
January 9, 2011 at 2:20 pm #711712
miwsParticipanthooper, I can’t speak for others here maybe it’s just me, but even though you occasionally specify “a few weeks/months to live”, your comments seem to come off as very general. Not taking into consideration; age, possibility of successful treatment, that the person may be in near perfect health otherwise, but absolutely must have a particular treatment to live. They can’t pay let ’em die!
Do I agree with you on letting them die, …”because they’ll only live a few more months anyway”? No. (And you know what, they may surprisingly live in good health several more years).
Should someone, in actual end stage have had the option to sign a Living Will, or some other paperwork to have the plug pulled when there’s no hope of recovering enough to live a quality life? Absolutely.
Mike
January 9, 2011 at 5:09 pm #711713
redblackParticipanthooper: i wasn’t dodging the issue – i’ve been busy. (thanks for picking up the slack, jo.) anyway, i don’t feel that i bent the “rules” by asking you to imagine how a single parent could feed and shelter himself and his children on $40,000 per year and save for rainy days.
i’ll freely admit that i wasn’t very specific in my dare, but i don’t feel that i took liberties.
if anything, i think you took liberties by automatically hypothesizing a single-income wage earner – who is, by default, not poor because he has no dependents. yes, of course that person has enough disposable income to save.
interesting stats i just heard on talk radio from the bureau of labor statistics:
median non-union labor income: $37,000/year
median union labor income: $47,000/year
i also feel that your budget is pretty simplistic, and i still don’t believe for a second that you can feed yourself – let alone keep a kid or two healthy – on $7 per day.
also, regarding transportation, if a construction laborer has no car, and an employer needs him for a job in enumclaw, what then?
January 9, 2011 at 5:15 pm #711714
JoBParticipantmiws..
please don’t treat this as a rational discussion…
those who want the elderly to walk off onto an ice flo have no compunctions about putting the disabled or disfigured or unemployed for that matter… on the same ice flo ..
pushing them out to sea “for the common good”.
That same “common good” fed concentration camps and gas ovens in Germany.
We really don’t want to go there.
We currently have insurance companies making like and death decisions for patients instead of doctors… based solely on their bottom line….
These are decisions that should be made by a patient, their family and their doctors.
Not in the court of public opinion where those for whom the decisions are made are nameless faceless cartoons.
January 9, 2011 at 6:42 pm #711715
hooper1961Memberredblack it is agreed a single person can make ends meet and save. looking at your list again:
$40,000 gross, less 15% for taxes (this is not correct, looking at the tax tables I believe zero or very little income tax would be owed; FICA taxes still apply; thus say 10%), is $34,000 ($36,000) per year. more like $2833 ($3,000) per month. just over $700 per week.
– $800 rent for a small 2bd/1ba
– $600 health insurance (i pay $350/month that includes dental for 2 people; thus your $600 is a bit high)
– $600 groceries (if you want your kids to be healthy) This value is way high, my $200 for a single person is not enough for a family $400/month should suffice.
– $100 for low-end cable/internet/phone
– $100 clothing (value village a few times a year; fred meyer sometimes)
– $30 electricity (are water/sewer/garbage paid?)
– renters’ insurance?
– stuff for kids (to keep them from killing you?)
– is public school really free? books?
– what about day care, if needed?
– does this person’s job require a car? like a construction worker?
– $100 for car insurance (this is too high, public transit ?)
– $150-250 to lease a car or make low car payments (public transit, car pooling)
Leaving your rent and health insurance as noted it adds up to $2,030 a month. Leaving ~$970/month for other items. Transportation via public transit saves significant money. I still believe that some savings ($200/month) can be squeezed out of the budget. I am not saying it is an easy budget, but it is doable and admittedly boring
January 9, 2011 at 7:09 pm #711716
dawsonctParticipantHoop, you have truly been suckered in by the Republican Party’s “two Santa Claus” theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jude_Wanniski#The_Two_Santa_Claus_Theory
The oligarchs and corporatists applaud you for your uncritical thinking.
January 9, 2011 at 7:11 pm #711717
hooper1961Memberi am not a republican or a democrat
January 9, 2011 at 8:08 pm #711718
miwsParticipant“That same “common good” fed concentration camps and gas ovens in Germany.”
JoB, that same thought came to me probably at least a couple of weeks ago, in reading hooper’s take on healthcare.
I think that thought in the back of my mind, is why I’ve been so vocal on this thread.
Mike
January 9, 2011 at 10:06 pm #711719
JoBParticipanthooper 1967
again.. your budget leaves no room for emergencies..
and it would take a long long time to acrue enough money to weather even a year of unemployment.. right now the average length of time on unemployment has topped 36 months.. that’s 3 years.
at 40K a year.. on your budget.. assuming there were no added expenses of any kind ever…
a person would have to save for about 15 years to weather 3 years unemployed…
so much for them buying a house… or a car… or a vacation.. ever… or braces for their kid… or any kind of elective surgery (and you would be really surprised what is considered elective).. or having a single evening out… or…
you may or may not choose to live that way from choice…
but you expect them to live that way so that you can get an imaginary tax break.
give me a break hoop … it ain’t all about you.
January 9, 2011 at 10:21 pm #711720
JiggersMemberJanuary 10, 2011 at 1:31 am #711721
JoBParticipantjigger..
the reassurances of the TIMES article fall flat in light of Arizona’s choice to impose the death penalty on two of it’s citizens whose health crisis were accompanied by hard times.
January 10, 2011 at 6:22 am #711722
hooper1961Memberjob – my wife and i lived very frugally for the first 10 years of our marriage to get some money saved for a rainy day. she was taken suddenly and i saw first hand what a rip off Social Security is; especially to dual working couples.
there are needs and wants; a $40k income can take care of the needs (food and shelter); but to get some wants getting a second job might be needed.
there is limited government resources; please let me know how you would address the issue? washington voters have rejected more taxes; thus cuts will have to be made.
January 10, 2011 at 6:47 am #711723
JoBParticipanthooper 1961
i have told your repeatedly how i would deal with the limited resources of the government.
i would end corporate welfare.
That would free up plenty of money to
spend our limited health care dollars more wisely on a single payer insurance program
spend our education dollars on educating children
spend our social welfare dollars ensuring the welfare of our citizens
and we would prosper
but you don’t want to hear that
it doesn’t earn you any advantage
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