Good neighbors?

[mellaw6565]

Barb – people are upset because the developers are being given a carte blanche by the City Council to subdivide our neighborhoods like this without any thought to the people that already live there. Contrary to popular belief, many don’t want these properties in their single family neighborhoods, but we don’t have the weight and money that these rich developers do to bend the ears of the City Council.

Notice that David has said nothing about the low income people that he displaced or whether he is providing anything for them.

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[mellaw6565]

Barb – the place could look like the Taj Mahal but it’s still inappropriate (IMO) for many of our neighborhoods. These structures do NOTHING for promoting community.

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[barb]

fine, mellaw you are right, and I am wrong, my apologies. I didn’t realize that we all had to have cookie cutter homes.

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[mellaw6565]

NOt cookie cutter, just not a ton of people on one piece of property. In fact, I’m advocating against cookie cutter homes – that’s what townhomes are!!! They all look the same and cost the same. I want all different types of SINGLE family structures – do you really want to live next to 20 or 30 people on your right and 20-30 on your left? If so, then move to an area like downtown where those structures are more appropriate and leave the originality of the homes that are here.

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[TammiWS]

How do we know he displaced anyone? Wasnt there a thread here yesterday about an abandoned house with rats and squatters in it? THAT should be torn down.

And how do we know they dont promote community – maybe the 10 families that live there get to know one another in their own micro-community and that works for them?

Mellaw, very nice you can offer your home for rent at below market. When did you buy it and are you just charging enough to cover taxes? I know I couldnt rent my house out for less than my mortgage – why would I subsidize the rent for someone when I still owe ALOT on my home?

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[Magpie]

True, I haven’t seen the place, but David stated the neighborhood included junkers and peeling paint and blue tarps. It seems to me a natural assumption that a brand new townhome would be an improvement to that?

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[TammiWS]

West Seattle is full of neighborhoods with cookie cutter homes – have you been in the neighborhoods between Morgan and the Junction on the W. side of Calif. and down Fauntleroy? OR in the areas on the other side of Delridge – 1930’s, 40’s, 50’s cookie cutter, block by block by block. All war time homes and Boeing employee homes….

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[mellaw6565]

Tammi -I bought something I could afford, put a lot of my own sweat and equity into it to make it a really super place to live, and then I look for tenants that are going to respect it and make it an enjoyable home for themselves. I’m not subsidizing rent for anyone – just providing something that is affordable, which IMO is not being done by many landlords around here. They see rental prices going up and decide to jump on the bandwagon to line their own pockets. I’m not going to take advantage of someone else just to make myself richer and make their lives more miserable if they can’t afford it. Market prices right now DO NOT reflect the actual wage earning capacity of the population – they are the direct result of these developers coming in and trying to artificially inflate prices to line their own pockets. My rent may be below “market” but it’s in line with the average earning capacity in the area and, as a result, my tenants are happy and appreciative.

Why should the abandoned house with rats be “torn down”? Why shouldn’t it be listed at a very reasonable price so a lower income family can buy it and fix it up? But alas, watch what will happen – a developer like David will buy it, convert the property to townhomes and charge ridiculously inflated prices, thus insuring that another reasonably priced property falls out the hands of those that could afford it.

Community development is more than just developers with deep pockets…….

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[mellaw6565]

Tammi – you obviously haven’t explored a lot of W. Seattle then, because I am always amazed at the magnitude of difference I see in the houses around me. People do modify their houses over the years, giving them individual personalities.

And this isn’t necessarily just a matter of aesthetics Magpie – the discussion is one about density and putting up these huge structures in the middle of neighborhoods where they are out of place and impact property values and “neighborly” feelings from single family dwellers.

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[TammiWS]

I have explored ALOT of WS in my years here and run the streets and parks daily so am quite familiar with the neighborhoods. I do see some homes being remodeled and upgraded and actual teardowns and rebuilds of single family homes on the same piece of land – and still some areas exist with 10 homes in a row that looks the same. All types of dwellings exist in WS.

Nice discussing this with you – we can agree to disagee on this topic but appreciate your passion about it. I’m off to bed, have a good evening.

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[mellaw6565]

Same here Tammi – building community involves these discussions. You can come over to my cookie cutter house anytime:)

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[barb]

maybe the abandoned house can be torn down and affordable homes could be put up. It’s true, we have a lot of townhomes, but for the most part people can’t afford one family homes around here. If the abandoned home was listed who is saying someone would buy it to clean it up? What if someone bought it to build a house you don’t like? That’s good of you mellaw to keep your rents low and I commend you for that.

The discussion did start about aesthetics, he said that people comment on the look of his home, it wasn’t necessarily a “density” discussion. David was wondering when people got so rude. If someone wants to buy a piece of land and put up something huge then have at it. I’m not going to go over to my neighbors and put signs up and make comments to them if they decided to build more onto their home.

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[mellaw6565]

I won’t do that to a neighbor, but I would do it to a developer.

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[mellaw6565]

I’m off to watch Silence of the Lambs – now there’s a neighbor for you! LOL!

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[mellaw6565]

Barb – P.S. The prices on the townhomes are not any cheaper than single family homes in most cases. That’s the sad reality.

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[DavidF]

I did not displace anyone in the building of my two townhomes. Nor did I tear any structures down to build my family a new home.

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[karen]

With prices on gas and food going up and up, I’d do it if it were feasible. If I could split my lot and build for my family and have a unit or two to sell, heck yeah I’d do it and to heck with what anyone else thought. I don’t see the “neighborhood” jumping in to fill my gas tank or pay my mortgage.

This is my property and as long as I follow the laws, I can do what I want with it.

No, I don’t want to live next to a high density structure, or a shopping mall. However, if that’s what my neighbors decide to do, there’s not much I can do about it. If I don’t want to worry about the neighbors, I suppose I need to go live out in the boonies with a hundred acres between me and the property line.

It seems like people are jumping on this guy because he has the nerve to want to make a profit. So, those that find it offensive, you work for a non-profit and donate all your wages to support low income families? You work in businesses that don’t displace people, harm the environment, make a profit?

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[Diane]

wow, I’m appalled by the negativity, and bashing, mostly by one person, with the opening statement “David – I haven’t seen your place” and then going on and on and on in 15 posts denigrating everything about what he does and his place; then denying being negative; please, can you express your point of view without being so mean?

I agree with David’s opening statement, and sorry to hear the hostility by your neighbors and in response to your post here

I lived in a single family home for 7 years in West Seattle, in a neighborhood of mostly 40’s houses; compared to my current lifestyle, living in a single family home was far more selfish

I now live in a multi-family dwelling; it’s called an apt building, with at least 20 neighbors all on one lot, in the midst of a neighborhood filled with mostly single family homes; my building is one of the oldest here, also from the 40’s, ugly as hell on the outside; there are probably many neighbors that would like to see my home demolished; there are many monstrous single family homes newly built in surrounding blocks, gigantic ugly houses taking up the entire mass of the lot, encroaching on next door tiny old houses, blocking views, etc; it’s not just townhomes that can be ugly and massive; and there are some very nice new townhomes

I am thrilled about much of the new development coming into West Seattle; you don’t have to live downtown to embrace density as a positive life choice and good for the planet

btw, I’ve never been able to afford to buy anything, lifelong renter here; but I still feel a part of the community, and love the diversity of older and new development, variations of architecture, and embracing all lifestyles

I’d like to extend a warm welcome to neighbor David and his family

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[WSB]

Two points of interest, seeing where this discussion has meandered over the past hours.

1. Delridge development is booming (one of these days I’m going to put together a feature on it with a map like the one we made for Junction/Triangle development – there are almost as many projects) and it hasn’t drawn nearly as many complaints as development in the western half of WS, so the revelation that the OP was targeted with a sign of protest is certainly an unusual case. If you haven’t driven down Delridge itself lately, give it a spin; many projects under way, including rundown apartment buildings marked for teardown toward the south end (around Thistle).

2. For all the meetings, forums, etc., we’ve covered in just our past couple years of a WS-only focus — both West Seattle-specific meetings and city-level meetings affecting WS as well as other parts of the city — there is no question that the city is proceeding with a pro-density policy, and that is likely to intensify given the expectation that $4-plus gas will bring more people back to in-city living (during my days of working downtown, it seemed all my co-workers were buying homes in places like Sumner and North Bend … I suspect that trend has slowed).

So if you truly believe that density is the wrong direction, or that it should be limited to certain areas of the city as at least one post above suggests, you are really going to want to let your elected leaders know. (Same of course if you support it.) Mayor, council contacts are all on the city website at

http://seattle.gov

Sally Clark is in charge of the committee that oversees planning, land use, and neighborhoods. During her Junction walking tour two months ago, covered here,

https://westseattleblog.com/blog/?p=7196

she acknowledged, “We’re not good at telling developers ‘no’.”

Meantime, what I’d call an car-discouraging policy also is part of the pro-density policy; as we report in stories about developments, the city continues to reduce the number of parking spaces it requires. Some developers choose to include more than the required number of spaces, so that’s why you don’t see all new developments at the minimum-requirement level.

data points … and the bottom line remains that whatever you support, stay informed and stay involved. This is why we post updates on development-related meetings, large properties for sale, permits that are granted, etc., to try to help facilitate access to information. What you do or don’t do with that information is your choice but there is plenty of information available on what’s going on regarding projects and policies.

P.S. If you ever want to know what is going on with a lot near you, whether it’s marked with a city land-use sign or not, put its address in here – you will get its history as well as whether there are any active proposals:

http://web1.seattle.gov/DPD/permitstatus/

TR

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[mellaw6565]

Karen – I teach juvenile offenders in a JRA facility, so I don’t harm the environment, displace workers or make a profit. And yes, I donate 10% to the local food bank (as meager as a teacher’s 10% is). So I try to “walk the walk” in addition to “talk the talk”. I don’t have a problem with someone making a profit, it’s just the manner and the cost to others that often does not justify the profit. Not all profitable ventures should be done just for profit’s sake.

My point in previous posts was about the cost that this type of development is having on our community as a whole and the people who can afford to live here. You certainly can continue to live your life under the premise “heck yeah I’d do it and to heck with what anyone else thought. This is my property and as long as I follow the laws, I can do what I want with it”. But then you and developers like DavidF shouldn’t be surprised when neighbors take issue with what you are doing and express their feelings about it. They should use manners, but just because David doesn’t like what they have to say doesn’t make them bad neighbors – it just means they don’t like the development and its’ effect on the community.

Diane – I don’t think I’m being mean. Just direct and honest. It’s a brutal world out there and often it is developers that are part of the problem and not the solution, because they build without taking into account the effect that their developments have on the community and its’ resources, like parking, schools, utilities, etc….. These developments also do nothing to encourage long-term stability in our neighborhoods as statistics show that many people stay longer in single-family structures than in multi-family dwellings. I have no problem with you being an apartment dweller, and renting has its’ positive aspects, but I’m not in favor of cramming more and more people into existing communities just because someone can make a profit by developing their land.

I neither attacked DavidF personally (or “bashed” as you put it)nor do I wish him or his family harm or want to chase them away as residents, but I certainly think that as a developer he is able to act like a professional and understand the hard feelings that his development may have created among his neighbors (as he stated – he has received “numerous” comments). So if he wants sympathy because his neighbors are upset with his choices, then perhaps that’s what he should have asked for in his OP- he didn’t. He posed the question whether these people were good or bad neighbors because they were upset with the aesthetics of his townhomes and expressed their feelings to him.

I thought that this forum was for “open” discussions. That doesn’t mean someone is being mean because they disagree with the OP – just because I don’t welcome townhome development on every corner in the neighborhood shouldn’t make you so “appalled”. I just think that as the developer, he should be able to handle the comments, pro & con, put forth by others in his community.

Certainly that doesn’t apply to comments that make his family feel threatened, but I don’t see his neighbor’s posted signs or complaints from neighbors about the aesthetics falling into that category. Yes, maybe they could have used a little more sugar than salt, but again it doesn’t make them “bad” neighbors per se. Perhaps DavidF can learn from this experience and as a developer take into account the concerns that many people have over the issues of density and affordable housing when working in/with a commmunity.

TR – thanks for posting the info. for many who may feel overwhelmed by the types of developments going on. I remember Sally Clarke’s comments about not being able to stop developers and it saddens me that our gov’t has gotten to that point – they are so desperate for tax revenues to supply essential services to all the people who are now being stuffed in here like sardines!

‘Nuff said….. Peace out!

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[MikeDady]

As I read through this thread I see a number of comments that lump all ‘developers’ into one category which is incredibly narrow thinking. They are not all mega bucks kind of people looking to ‘ruin’ your neighborhood or mine. Without a doubt some do not even live in this city and don’t care about anything other than how much money they can make. But there are also small time operators that want to try and do a good job with both design and construction quality. I would hope that people can understand that a small time operator cannot afford to build and subsidize apartments or townhomes for low-income people out of just their own good will as they to have bills and payroll to make like any other small business person.

I know of DavidF’s project, and I know his street and some of its issues as well. This particular street and its surrounding area has been the scene over the last fews years of many a vacant, uninhabited house owned by absentee property owners that for the most part have cared about nothing other than the speculation that their Delridge land increases in value. The problems for the neighborhood that these vacant houses have caused is immense. From squatters and drug users, to attracting illegal dumping and rats the fall out was large. Thankfully it is finally coming under control due to citizen involvement and measures taken by DPD that forces the owners to comply with the Vacant Building Code.

Some of these absentee owners/speculators would rent their ‘investment property’ out to anyone. And when I say anyone I mean anyone, including those dealing drugs or using the property for other means that was in violation of the Land Use Code such as storing multiple broken down cars, trucks, boats, garbage, appliances, scrap metal and anything else that one could pile up both on the private property as well as in the Public Street Right-Of-Way. The city has had long standing Code against the use of residential property and ROW’s in this manner so it is not the case of one persons aesthetic versus the occupants. This Code was put in place to prevent a residential neighborhood from being used as some kind quasi industrial district.

Some of these absentee owners/speculator were/are living out of state. Some are from the other side of the lake, and many from other parts of West Seattle with names that a lot of people would recognize. The term Slum Lord is to nice for a number of these people. These investor/speculator/rental home owners have caused more harm to this neighborhood and the city at large than any two-unit LDT Zoned townhome project such as DavidF’s could ever cause.

For those who are concerned about legitimate tenant displacement, this specific project was built on vacant land that was a result of short-platting a larger parcel per the Land Use Code so there was no removal of any existing home and therefore no tenant was displaced that I am aware of. If someone knows otherwise please share.

Speaking of displacement, there has of course been people displaced in North Delridge by the infill development that is occurring. It saddened me to see the father of Marcus Ryan Anderson – the seven year old boy who was run over and killed on Delridge Way back in 1987 – displaced from his rental due to redevelopment. But I will tell you flat out that some of the people who have been displaced are people who no one, including probably their own mothers would want as neighbors. Again, think drug dealers or users, or other problem causing tenants who ruin things for everyone. Where these screwed up people go and how they are to be dealt with is way beyond me, but concentrating them in one area is not a good thing for anyone.

There have also been long-timers who have lived in the neighborhood for decades who have decided to sell their upzoned L2 or LDT zoned properties that are along the arterials and hit the trail to greener pastures elsewhere. May they find what they are looking for…

There is plenty of housing stock in this city to cringe at, some of it the new stuff, but there is also plenty of old stuff that has been butchered by DIY’s or remodel hacks. But what I might cringe at you might love. You can well imagine what the Duwamish Tribe might have thought when they started seeing homes and buildings that were very odd looking to them go up where there was once forest, streams and salmon. But what is done, is done.

DavidF has built his project and is living in one of the units, and he also happens to have become involved in his Neighborhood Council through which he has begun to work towards solutions for the speeding traffic that has plagued his street for a long time. For some of his neighbors to have behaved like jerks towards him or is family is bs. Maybe once they see a traffic speeding solution implemented in a few years they will think back on how they initially treated him. Let us hope so.

There are vast differences in the scale and size of infill development that is occurring on the various types of Multi-Family Zoned land in all the neighborhoods of the city. All this development was put into the pipeline like about 10+ years ago by neighbors that chose to get involved in crafting their Neighborhood Plans which were then dealt with by the City Council. If you weren’t around or didn’t get involved back then, then do so now as it relates to Council Member Sally Clark’s current work. Gawd knows the Multi-Family Code has problems that need to be addressed and updated.

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[ws4ever]

Slightly different topic, but also surprisingly rude: socially “off” neighbors who audibly critique other neighbors from adjoining decks, in a rather sad attempt to appear special.

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[TammiWS]

Well said, MikeDaddy.

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[JoB]

David’s story is unique in that he is choosing to live in one of his units and has chosen to involve himself in local planning…

But he is not unique in not understanding the resentments that people in lower income or lower density neighborhoods feel when development comes in.

Even if they welcome the prospect of better neighbors in their neighborhood, they might not welcome the prospect of the higher taxes that will bring if they have struggled to keep their home… or the higher density.

if their neighborhood has been taken over by slumlords and the crime that brings… they likely feel hopeless and helpless already… and your home was just one more change to their neighborhood that they had no choice but to accept.

you may be a change for the better.. but you are still change… it takes some people time to adjust to change.

David, i am sorry you neighbors haven’t given you a chance.

But i have to ask.. did you give them one? Did you talk to any of your neighbors before you began to build? Do you know what their personal concerns were?

I know that it was important to you to maximize your lot, but does your project change the light in the garden next door? did you provide a fence to keep children from encroaching on the neighbors?

Being a good neighbor is much more than not vocalizing your judgments… it starts with getting to know your neighbors…

Give them a chance to get to know you and your family. talk to them about what you can do together to make yours a better neighborhood…

Good luck to you and your family.. and kudos for living in your development. That takes guts.

And i hope your experience will help you to make more informed decisions about the health of the neighborhood if you decide to develop further there… and will build allies in helping to turn that neighborhood around.

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[Diane]

re did you provide a fence to keep children from encroaching on the neighbors?

am I reading this correctly?

children encroaching?

I’d like to see fewer or lower fences in our communities, so we can interact more easily and actively with our neighbors

one of the things I would have changed in my past house of 7 yrs, if I’d been the owner and had that choice, would have been a lower fence, or see through fence, just high enough to keep their basset hound next door out of my yard, so I could see the children at play next door, and invite them into my yard; my entire back yard, which was huge, had 5 ft fence; the privacy was nice at times, but also shut me off from my neighbors

I’m a child of the 50’s, so really miss the days of more open neighborhoods; the low picket fence in my front yard there was wonderful

fences to keep dogs from encroaching on neighbors may be more appropriate, but children????

I got really annoyed at picking of dog poop every week before mowing my parking strip

pretty sure all that poop was from doggies, not from children

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