God is imaginary

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  • #704178

    sarelly
    Member

    How God is defined depends on which religion is defining God. Also, there is a difference between religion and spirituality. At times they are mutually exclusive. Ultimately God is unknowable, so whether or not God “exists” or what God is or is not hardly matters. What matters is how we choose to live, which is what all the great religions of the world – at their best – teach, if they have not become distorted. Religion should provide a road map for becoming a quality human being. Otherwise, what’s the point? The problem atheists often face is the assumption that belief in God is a prerequisite for developing a moral compass, which it isn’t. The practical application of belief or non-belief is a statement of values.

    #704179

    anonyme
    Participant

    DP, I know you love to play devil’s advocate (especially apropos as related to this thread) so I won’t take your little barbs very seriously. But instead of throwing out quotations and questions just so that you can snipe at the responses, why don’t you tell us what YOU think they mean? Why don’t you interpret Voltaire for us? Share with us what you believe, and why.

    #704180

    DP
    Member

    anonyme: You’ve got me pegged. In fact, I’m not sure what I believe in from one day to the next, but I do believe in God.

    Atheism doesn’t bother me, though, and there’s nothing I enjoy more than discussing the question of God in a thoughtful way, like we’re doing now.

    As to Voltaire, what I think he was saying is that without God there is no way to understand the mischief that men get into.

    There’s a certain determinism that runs through Voltaire, too — a sense that historically, things pretty much had to turn out the way they did.

    What if we had a really big laboratory and we could run this grand experiment of Life on Earth a hundred times over just to see what would happen? I’ll bet that for each one of those trials, the result would be roughly the same, give or take a few million years.

    • After a series of “explosions” and extinctions, intelligent life would evolve.

    • After a period of social and cultural development, religion would appear.
    • After a period of interesting experiments with polytheism and animism, monotheism would develop.
    • Finally, after a great and bloody struggle, atheism would arise and become established as one of the major worldviews.

    But just as one species does not have to be destroyed for it to evolve into another, a new idea (like atheism) can coexist with its antecedent (theism). And just as species evolve to fill niches in living ecosystems, ideas can evolve to occupy competing systems of thought that collectively help us make sense of history and the world around us.

    To relate all this back to the question of theism vs. atheism, it seems to me that these two systems of thought need each other in ways both logical and emotional. Since you are a thoughtful non-believer, anonyme, I expect that you would occasionally ask yourself: Why do some people still believe in God? Similarly, I would expect a thoughtul believer to ask herself: Why doesn’t everyone believe in God?

    And with that I pass the Devil’s Advocate Talking Stick back to you . . .

    —David

    P.S. sarelly: Stop making sense. We’re trying to talk religion here. ;-)

    #704181

    JoB
    Participant

    DP…

    I can’t answer to or for everyone

    i have enough trouble answering for myself..

    which brings us back to JanS’s point..

    religion is only a problem when it stops being personal.

    btw.. it was refreshing to meet the david behind DP in your last post.

    #704182

    JoB
    Participant

    this article follows up on what Ken alluded to with the religious survey he linked…

    according to a PEW survey… atheists know more about religion than those who believe in God…

    i linked this article because i really liked the comments.. but buried in it is the actual survey and analysis.

    http://www.care2.com/causes/politics/blog/an-almighty-quip-atheists-rank-1-in-religious-literacy-in-america/

    #704183

    Ken
    Participant

    If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him.

    —Voltaire

    the accepted meaning of the quote, based on other writings of Voltaire, is that current (current in his lifetime anyway) societies needed some unifying philosophy to keep the peons in line. A carrot/stick combo that could not be tested in the real world and yet could be enforced against those who got out of line via the authority of the state/monarchy/emporor in conjunction with the priesthood. Note, this theory is supported by evidence in all the precursor religions of the ancients via the kings/chiefs/headmen of the ancient world and the Popes/witchdoctors/shaman who collaborated and shared the power with them and via the universal concepts of heresy, blasphemy, and witchcraft as tools to cull the insufficiently faithful.

    The natural world with its plagues, storms and earthquakes needed an explanation and religions/myths provided them.

    “If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.”

    — Albert Einstein

    “A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes.”

    — James Feibleman, “Understanding Philosophy”, 1973

    #704184

    DP
    Member

    Ken: I like your explanation of Voltaire better than mine.

    JoB said:

    according to a PEW survey… atheists know more about religion than those who believe in God…

    I agree with that statement. In my experience, atheists know a lot about religion and have thought a lot about faith too. Conversely, so-called theists tend to know relatively little about religion (including their own) and don’t spend that much time thinking about what the God they claim to believe in really wants them to do. Instead, they just do exactly what they want to do (or what someone else tells them to do) and then claim it was all “God’s will.”

    What a cop-out.

    Though I’m not an atheist myself, I tend to have more respect for the moral decisions that atheists make, because I can assume that they at least put some thought into those decisions.

    But still and all . . . Ken . . . don’t you ever find yourself wondering what this life has all been FOR? I mean . . . in the grand scheme of things?

    If you say, simply: “I don’t know what it’s all been for.” — I can appreciate that.

    But if you say: “I know what it’s all been for: Nothing.” — I find that to be a deeply dissatisfying answer, and one that does not jibe with my observations of human nature, to say nothing of the universe around us.

    Mark Twain (a noted atheist) defined God as “a three letter word meaning ‘I don’t know.'”

    That accords pretty closely with my own definition of God, actually. And although Twain meant it as a put-down, somehow I don’t feel put down by it at all.

    For me too, God = I don’t know. (But I still want to anyway.)

    Cool.

    #704185

    JoB
    Participant

    if god is imaginary

    i am glad to have a fertile imagination

    #704186

    HMC Rich
    Participant

    I am a really awful Christian. I am more like Ben Franklin. It is personal. I often wonder why non religious people attack religion. I also wonder why some religious people won’t respect others non belief (beyond trying to “enlighten” the non believers). This line of thought is mostly relating to our Judeo-Christian ethic.

    I am not offended by Christians, Muslims or who or whatever people are trying to convert me. Do I find it sometimes uncomfortable? Yes, at times. But the word “NO” seems to work. Unless it is the idiots who claim to be religious but spread hate like the Westboro Baptist Church.

    Of course (as I have mentioned before) the State Constitution does say in the PREAMBLE

    We, the people of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this constitution.

    Better not tick off the Supreme Ruler in this state!!!!!

    Fortunately the state constitution also is very clear on the role of religion in government: SECTION 11 RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Absolute freedom of conscience in all matters of religious sentiment, belief and worship, shall be guaranteed to every individual, and no one shall be molested or disturbed in person or property on account of religion; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of the state. No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or the support of any religious establishment: PROVIDED, HOWEVER, That this article shall not be so construed as to forbid the employment by the state of a chaplain for such of the state custodial, correctional, and mental institutions, or by a county’s or public hospital district’s hospital, health care facility, or hospice, as in the discretion of the legislature may seem justified. No religious qualification shall be required for any public office or employment, nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror, in consequence of his opinion on matters of religion, nor be questioned in any court of justice touching his religious belief to affect the weight of his testimony. [AMENDMENT 88, 1993 House Joint Resolution No. 4200, p 3062. Approved November 2, 1993.]

    Our founding documents for our federal government laid out the role of religion. Toqueville wrote about our fledgling republic. The library of congress has a website which shows various founding father views and the views of those people.

    http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html

    If you hate religion, that is your problem. If you love religion, that is your problem too.

    But instead of focusing on the negative aspects it is nice to know the positive aspects that religion has brought to our society. I love the Salvation Army and their people. If only I was as good as them.

    Ken nailed it with the L. Ron Hubbard quote. Plus the internet has spawned a whole new number of new religions. It must be fate. http://www.coimbra-group.eu/IMAGES/2010/New%20religions%20in%20cyberspace%202009%20Markus%20Davidsen.pdf

    #704187

    JoB
    Participant
    #704188

    HMC Rich
    Participant

    Did you watch Glee this evening? Awesome.

    #704189

    JoB
    Participant

    HMCRich…

    i have to confess… i don’t watch Glee.

    should i?

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