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May 2, 2008 at 8:40 pm #617942
rs261MemberWow, im active today… from hill’s interview with bill oreilly the other day (transcript can be found http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,353759,00.html )
O’REILLY: But I’m not a middle-class family. I’m a rich guy.
CLINTON: Well, and you know what? Rich people, God bless us. We deserve all the opportunities…
O’REILLY: All right.
CLINTON: …to make sure our country and our blessings continue to the next generation.
Of course there is more before and after that…but I found those statements to be rather elitist
May 2, 2008 at 8:58 pm #617943
JoBParticipanti am not sure why you think Hillary should apologize for becoming rich.
She worked for her money.
Her hubby worked for his.
She wrote a book. They are paid for appearances.
They donate a good chunk of their money to charity.
what part of this bothers you?
That Hillary didn’t let O’Rielly pull her chain?
Post presidency.. if he gets there…i am quite sure that Senator and Michelle Obama will also be rich…
after all.. the Senate.. his book and speaking engagements have already been very good to him.
May 2, 2008 at 9:02 pm #617944
JoBParticipantread it again.. oh we were after elitism..
Clinton:Well, and you know what? Rich people, God bless us. We deserve all the opportunities…to make sure our country and our blessings continue to the next generation.
the entire statement doesn’t sound so elitist if you take away O’Rielly’s insinuations.. does it?
She actually thinks rich people have responsibility that goes along with their wealth…
May 2, 2008 at 9:25 pm #617945
Tonya42MemberEither candidate will have an uphill battle to win over McCain. Hate to be the bearer of bad news but that is the case. It will be an exciting race regardless of whoever ends up getting the dem nomination. I am afraid that some heads are going to be exploding around here come January though but that’s just my observation.
May 2, 2008 at 9:26 pm #617946
TrickParticipantI couldn’t agree more with the statement Charlabob made….
“Right now we’re in danger of equating
“elitist” with “informed”.
Btw, I like my PBR in a can on a hot summer day, a “Sloppy Joe” on cold, wet afternoon and at the same time can enjoy a Ketel Martini (twist plss) while watching the THE SOUP in my paint strewn sweats.
Ever wonder why Dems always seem to win major urban cities and the further you go out you see red?
May 2, 2008 at 9:44 pm #617947
JoBParticipanttrick…
in this case elitism isn’t about someone else thinking you think you are better than them and therefore thinking you put on airs…
in other words. it’s not about calling you a snob…
in this case elitism is about thinking that you know better what is good for other people who don’t know enough to figure it out for themselves… and therefor trivializing their concerns.
I am glad that you kept your common touch..
“I like my PBR in a can on a hot summer day, a “Sloppy Joe” on cold, wet afternoon and at the same time can enjoy a Ketel Martini (twist plss) while watching the THE SOUP in my paint strewn sweats.”..
but bet there a a great many who would love to have the opportunity for those kinds of choices…
and that many have difficulty telling the difference is exactly why some dems don’t do so well in the heartland…
May 2, 2008 at 9:48 pm #617948
JoBParticipantTonya42
no matter how the national election turns out i am afraid you are right about this…
“I am afraid that some heads are going to be exploding around here come January though but that’s just my observation.”
I personally think we will be a lot better off as a country if the heads exploding are republican heads…
by that point it will have ceased to matter much to any of us which democrat won the race.
May 2, 2008 at 9:53 pm #617949
TrickParticipantSo JoB,
You’re telling me if I bribe you with Sloppy Joes and PBR you’ll think about supporting Obama?
(Ketel Martini only if you vote for him)
May 2, 2008 at 10:01 pm #617950
beachdrivegirlParticipantUnfortunatly, we do not get to make up our definitions of words and Elitsm already has a definition. Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern. And by your definition, JoB every person falls into elitism because someone always thinks they have a better plan..
May 2, 2008 at 10:03 pm #617951
KayleighMemberIf I like goat cheese better than Velveeta, does that make me elitist?
Do I have to have a high bowling score to care about poor people?
Do I have to sneer at people who are smarter than I am to be a good American?
Is there a magical level of income that disqualifies you from being a true liberal?
Is it more moral to drink PBR than Heineken?
Is Obama elitist to point out that people sometimes make political choices that work against their self-interest?
Maybe we are all complex people and it doesn’t serve anybody (other than Madison Avenue and corporate America) to define and divide us this way. Yes, class is culture in America, but we Democrats need to do a better job of uniting people across class and culture lines.
JMO.
May 2, 2008 at 11:07 pm #617952
JoBParticipantwoo hoo…
i think i struck a nerve…
beachdrivegirl…
I took the definition of elitism directly from the dictionary cited… and i didn’t check several dictionaries until i came up with one that suited me.. i just used the first one i took down from the shelf…
no…we are not all elitists.. not even those who think they have a better idea…
choosing the best idea on the basis of merit is not elitist…
choosing the best idea on the basis of whose idea it was is elitist…
there’s a definite difference…
the unwillingness to consider the validity of arguments based on who wrote them is elitist…
reading the argument and deciding it’s validity based on the merit of the argument is not…
elitism really is a defined term and applying it is amazingly simple once you start thinking about it…
Kayleigh…
I realize that you didn’t address your “questions” to me.. but for the fun of it.. i will answer them anyway…
personal preferences have nothing to do with elitism.
judging other people based on their personal preferences does…
and yes.. for the purposes of answering your question.. i am choosing to leave out personal preferences which might cause harm to another person..)
As far as i know.. there are no set standards anyone has to meet to care about other people… all you have to do is care.
You don’t have to sneer at people who are either smarter or dumber than you to be a good American…
is there a magic level of wealth that disqualifies you from being a liberal? ..
believe it or not.. that one is a little harder because the reality is that having anything you personally consider wealth does change how you view some things.
You might be more inclined to take the view that corporate financial health is more important than individual financial health if your personal financial health is tied to corporate financial health.. in other words. if you your stock ownership defines your wealth.
You might still think in liberal terms but find yourself acting in less liberal terms because of constant association with other people of similar wealth… tho perhaps not similar political beliefs..
does thought process or actions define liberalism regardless of income?
tough questions.. and another philosopher will have to come along to handle that one:)
the drink question is easy… i don’t think it much matters what you drink… but milk is almost always a healthy option unless you are lactose intolerant..
but then.. you knew all of that didn’t you:)
the real question is whether Obama is elitist to point out that people sometimes make political choices that work against their self interest…
and the answer is that no he isn’t.
But when you talk to one group of people about another group of people that you have decided have made political choices that are against their self interests purely because they dont’ agree with you… in a less than respectful way.. as Obam has… then yes.. i think that is elitist…
that is why i think his reaction to the idea of a gas tax holiday was elitist. he didn’t just state his argument.. he dismissed those who might actually benefit from the proposition out of hand as being ignorant. And that is elitist.
I personally also think it is elitist to make examples of people for what you consider their racism or their ignorance without addressing the causes of that racism or ignorance… which i believe he has done repeatedly.
I also personally think that when you expect a group of people to politically support you because of your race or sex without being willing to show that you are actively working to better the conditions of that group of people.. as i believe he has with the black community.. that is elitist.
Please note though. .that those are my personal opinions… based on my observations and my understanding of elitist behavior… and i don’t profess them to be anything more.
and yes.. i could site instances of Hillary being elitist as well…
but on the whole, she is far more connected to the issues that resonate with the less affluent and has a solid legislative record of being far more willing to try to accomplish something that will actually provide results for those people… than Senator Obama’s record demonstrates.
i think all politicians are just that politicians… and as a result.. to lesser or greater extent.. all are elitists.
Trick…
I will become an Obama supporter on the day he wins the nomination.. if he wins the nomination. between then and now… i don’t think even dark chocolate and cocacola will work.. and i am heavily addicted to both of them:)
however.. i think we all ought to go out for a real indulgence bash the minute this nomination is settled.. because we have all earned it.. winners and losers alike…
while we have definite preferences for a candidate.. either of them will be substantially better than the alternative:) If we can celebrate that when we have a nominee.. everything will be just fine..
you are going to love me when it comes time to do battle with the republicans… the type of argument i do best will suit the intellectual side of their strategy very well…
May 2, 2008 at 11:47 pm #617953
beachdrivegirlParticipantI am not going to sit here and argue about elitism. This is about who the better canidate is and who is actually looking out for the country. I stick by my decision taht Obama is the best choice. The sad part for Clinton is that her character is what lost this election for her. Her policies and ideas which are very similar to Obamas are great, but her personal character is awful!And she is lucky Obama stands on a higher ground then her becuase I am sure that if Obama would have made the comment in reference to the rich she would be having a hay day with it.
Obama ’08 and ’12
May 3, 2008 at 1:28 am #617954
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl…
the not so funny thing is that i feel exactly the same way about Senator Obama’s character…
i think he talks a good talk.. but doesn’t walk the walk.. and that’s one way i assess character.
one of these days we will have to talk about how we define character…
and if there was really a hey day to be made of that comment.. obama would have already made it… after all, he’s a politician and that’s his job.
May 3, 2008 at 1:52 am #617955
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl..
it isn’t about you. it isn’t about me. it isn’t about HIllary. it isn’t about Obama…
it’s about basic respect.
if i told you that the only reason that you support Senator Obama is that you are too stupid.. or uneducated.. or didn’t care about the good of the country.. or the good of the party.. or…
would you think i was being respectful of you in any way?
well.. you say all of those things about Clinton supporters. you are certainly not respectful of me. You are not respectful of Hillary. And you are not respectful of her supporters.. many of whom just plain never got the advantages you have had.
that’s what elitism is…
When you put people down to whom the money they saved would have made a difference by implying they are stupid.. or not resourceful.. or not trying.. saying they need to work more… you sound just like a republican.. in fact. you sound like thehouse…
Are you so blinded by your hatred of Hillary that you think any means justifies the end… even that?
i don’t believe that of you. I won’t believe that of you.
May 3, 2008 at 3:24 pm #617956
beachdrivegirlParticipantJoB
Do not put words in my mouth. I have never called Clinton supporters stupid or uneducated.Have you not read what I have posted and what I have put links to obviously not because if did you would realize the reasons why I do not support your canidate and quite frankly will adivate for Bloomberg to run if she manages to STEAL the election.
Secondly lets really take a look @ who is being elite and I don’t think its me and I don’t think its The House i hate to break it you but it is YOU. You do not read what we post and you only consider your view the right view and your canidate the right canidate.
And FYI in case you missed it the Gas tax Holiday is the repug way of thinking not the Dems so if anything when it comes to positions and being elite you and Clinton are more there then Obama and his supporters.
May 3, 2008 at 3:27 pm #617957
beachdrivegirlParticipantAnd if CLinton walks this walk to well why are those that know her and Obama best supporting Obama. (Yes those supers from the Senate…Obama (last time I checked) had more support by about 18 to 13..) hmmm sounds like she is the one talking the talk… becuase if she really had the walk down Clinton would be the nominee by now and her peers would be supporting her.
I cant wait for the primaries end on Tuesday. It will be a great day.
May 4, 2008 at 5:33 am #617958
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl…
i read every single word you post.
do i need to copy and paste your words to prove to you that i do?
I read every link you post. Then i follow the links in those links.
That’s where i find the information i feed back to you in rebuttal.
As for calling me elitist… do you really think insulting me is the way to make your argument?
You must.. because you think insulting Hillary is the way to make an argument for Obama.
neither works so well.
May 4, 2008 at 5:38 am #617959
JoBParticipantMay 4, 2008 at 6:22 am #617960
JoBParticipantThe above link had a map showing how the polls asking if Obama would win against McCain and if Hillary would win against McCain…
i looked at those where McCain was the clear winner…
of those 15 states.. 3 have not yet voted, 4 went for Hillary and 11 were states Obama won in the primary…
If this poll is correct.. 11 of the states that he won in the primary won’t be democratic wins in the fall…
ID, WY, VT, ND, KS, LA, MS, AL, GA, VA, AK
food for thought.
May 4, 2008 at 6:51 pm #617961
beachdrivegirlParticipantHillary did not get the complete land slide victory she needed yesterday to stay in the race what another great day for Obama!
May 4, 2008 at 6:55 pm #617962
beachdrivegirlParticipantJoB- I don’t like Zogby, or one poll over the other. I pointed out, that for every poll that says one thing, there is a credible poll that says the opposite. So, don’t read too much into polls. Especially in this race, demographics or the census have been the best predictor so far… I doubt Clinton gets within 10 points in NC. I could be wrong, but this late surges don’t sway me. Especially when there are polls that show they aren’t happening. One poll showed Obama winning Pennsylvania, it was wrong. Move on…
Here is some food for thought- John Kerry won Ohio, Florida, Texas in primary. George Bush won New York, and California twice. What’s the point? It has no impact on the general election, which for #1- is in 6 months, and #2- is a completely different race (although, sadly, the opponent will be running the same campaign against Obama as his primary opponent).
Al Gore won all 50 states in the primaries, it didn’t get him elected… It’s a really stupid, and desperate argument, and one that obviously wouldn’t be being made if they actually were leading based on the actual rules of the contest.
May 4, 2008 at 7:46 pm #617963
beachdrivegirlParticipant“because you think insulting Hillary is the way to make an argument for Obama.”
As I mentioned in earlier thread do not put words in my mouth and do not call me names. I have my own political opinions and do not support your canidate. That does not make me an elitist, petty, or a dumb person. I do not support your canidate because she has been caught in numerous lies and shares to many Republican talking points. And I want a change that I know Obama can deliver. Furthermore, the only reason I called you an elitist is because you seem to believe that the only realty that matters is the one that you want to believe and many times it is very very distant from what is really going on.
May 4, 2008 at 7:48 pm #617964
beachdrivegirlParticipantDo you think it is a coincendence that House would support Clinton over Obama? I don’t. I think it reaffirms what I have said before Clinton isnt change.
May 4, 2008 at 7:59 pm #617965
beachdrivegirlParticipantI read the best quote in the Seattle Times to do it was in regards to Economics. Everyone is referring to the fact that Clinton is playing the game of Politics. She is saying what the voters want to hear and ignoring the problems of the economy NOT providing solutions. While Obama is going to cut middle class taxes, and raise the taxes for the rich(which Clinton opposes..hmm maybe it has to do with the 10’s of millions dollars she will be taxed on..) Obama really is looking out for us! It sure feels great to be an Obama supporter.
May 5, 2008 at 2:41 pm #617966
walfredoMemberGeorge Stephanopoulos began his televised interview with Senator Hillary Clinton by asking if she could name a single economist who supports her plan for a gas tax suspension.
She did not. “I’m not going to put in my lot with economists,” she said on ABC’s “This Week” program. A few moments later, she added, “Elite opinion is always on the side of doing things that really disadvantages the vast majority of Americans.”
Does this type of statement, and complete dismissal of “experts” remind you of anyone?
As Colbert said, there are more nerve endings in the gut then any other part of the body.
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