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July 15, 2013 at 8:36 pm #793596
justadumbguyParticipantEdsane,
Here is the Florida statute see item 2 relating to being the aggressor and using force:
76.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
As I said earlier I would hope that this case might lead to some changes in the law but I doubt it will.
July 15, 2013 at 9:07 pm #793597
anonymeParticipantWhat I find more and more disturbing about this debate is how Martin has been made the bad guy, with Zimmerman’s stories (plural) now being talked about as if they were facts. No one speaks for Trayvon. The detective originally in charge of the case wanted to charge Zimmerman, in part due to his sketchy demeanor and wildly fluctuating versions of events – many of them impossible or implausible. (I’m pretty sure the same detective testified he found Zimmerman believable at trial – why the complete about face?) The trial did not ‘prove’ that Zimmerman’s account was true. It simply could not be proven as untrue, because the only witness who could provide that information was murdered by the defendant.
There is not one iota of evidence to suggest that Trayvon circled around and ambushed Zimmerman, or in any way provoked the physical altercation. NONE. We have only Zimmerman’s flapping gums to support that scenario, and logic would dictate a different set of events. Zimmerman now has his gun back, and is cocked and ready to defend himself against the “fringe element” that actually believes in justice.
Here’s a very likely scenario for the future: Someone stalks and hounds Zimmerman; Z turns to defend himself with his gun “unholstered”. Stalker beats him to the draw, and caps the bastard. Ironically, the precedent set by this verdict (and the statute posted by not-so-dumb-guy) MUST mean that the shooter goes free. And so it begins…
Reap what you sow.
July 15, 2013 at 10:10 pm #793598
DunnoParticipantThank you WF for posting the dispatch. If you read it carefully, in my opinion, the dispatcher is guilty of encouraging Zimmerman to follow Travon. There are multiple questions that took Zimmerman closer to Travon and that for a time, encouraged him to follow. It was only after a couple minutes that the dispatcher called him off and he said OK. It’s well worth reading and tell’s part of the story.
July 15, 2013 at 11:02 pm #793599
WFMemberthere is a lot of culpability in this case; the fact is no one should have been killed.
Trayvon”…at the time of his death…stood almost 6’2″ tall…weighed 175 muscular ….
July 15, 2013 at 11:30 pm #793600
JanSParticipantaccording to his biography, he was 5’11” and weighed 158 lbs. Not exactly a behemoth…he was NOT 6’2″
GZ was about 5’8″ and weighed 185 lbs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_Martin
July 16, 2013 at 12:11 am #793601
WFMemberjans i should have DC’d the source, treyvon was a decent sized kid but not a behemoth.
July 16, 2013 at 12:28 am #793602
JoBParticipantemphasis on the word kid
July 16, 2013 at 1:54 am #793603
miwsParticipantJuly 16, 2013 at 3:22 am #793604
EdSaneParticipant@F16CrewChief, his past criminal history helped plus whatever statements you made. If you believe that someone intends to strike you, you then have the right to defend yourself prior to the strike. What separates this from Zimmerman’s case is that he claimed to have been struck from behind initially.
…
@justadumbguy, that law is dumb. It completely nullifies the charge of manslaughter. Which usually applies when you are unlawfully negligent (provoke the fight).….
Mike, that article had way too much opinion with zero substance. He also failed to site any specific evidence that would have led to a conviction. It played out this ‘trope’ that security guards just want to be cops, or vigilante neighborhood watch guys.
July 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm #793605
JoBParticipantEdSane
from the article Mike quoted that you said had zero substance…
” I am just sick that this guy got off and his lawyers are going to shamelessly be doing victory laps on TV for the next several weeks.”
those victory laps have plenty of substance.. as does Zimmerman’s dad’s book.. and as unbelievable as it may sound an offer from FOX network for Zimmerman to appear in a program entitled Stand Your Ground.
it appears that you only acknowledge substance that fits within the narrow framework from which you view this case.
You would totally ignore the greater context of Zimmerman’s family’s connections.. the reluctance of the prosecutor’s office to file any charges at all… the lackluster prosecution… the racial overtones.. Trayvon was profiled by Zimmerman for his race.. and the ever present test for the use of Stand your ground laws that sets a new low bar for people who should never possess a gun to go out into public and “justifiably” use it against others.
the substance of this case rests in your criticism of that article “It played out this ‘trope’ that security guards just want to be cops, or vigilante neighborhood watch guys.”
How better to describe Zimmerman’s actions that night than as a vigilante neighborhood watch guy… a premise you skirt around as though it had no reality at all.
meanwhile, a kids who was doing everything he could to create a future is dead…
I am not sure how you skirt around that.
July 16, 2013 at 3:19 pm #793606
WFMemberjob i believe i read that treyvon had been expelled from school and is not a poster child. nevertheless he should not have had his life cut short by the cowardly act of a neighborhood watch person!
July 16, 2013 at 3:53 pm #793607
JoBParticipantWF.. did you also read that when his computer was accessed it contained college apps?
from Wiki..
“Martin had been suspended from school at the time of his death, his third disciplinary suspension of the year.[47] One suspension was for tardiness and truancy.[48] Another suspension in October 2011 was for graffiti, when Martin was observed by a security camera in a restricted area of the school marking up a door with “W.T.F.”[48] When he was later searched by a Miami-Dade School Police Department officer, looking for the graffiti marker, the officer found several pieces of women’s jewelry in his backpack, which Martin said a friend had given to him. A screwdriver was also found, which was described by the school police investigator as a burglary tool. The jewelry was impounded and given to the police, but no evidence ever surfaced to indicate that the jewelry was stolen.[48] Martin’s third suspension involved a marijuana pipe and an empty bag containing marijuana residue.[47] Martin was not charged with any crime related to these incidents and did not have a juvenile record.[4”
do our children have to be poster children to avoid being killed … even when they are where they are supposed to be … simply because someone carrying a gun is unfamiliar with them?
that is what it boiled down to.. on a dark and stormy night Zimmerman didn’t know the kid.. and assumed he was where he didn’t belong and up to no good.
and that was enough for him to get out of his car and pursue the kid
if that was your kid would that be ok with you?
July 16, 2013 at 4:06 pm #793608
ricoMemberIf it had been my kid and they do what they have been taught, then they would have simply charted a straight path toward home and would not have assaulted anyone.
Do people really believe it is OK to assault someone who is following you and hassling you. This happens in varying degrees where I work in downtown and yet somehow I have never had to assault someone, though the urge is often there.
July 16, 2013 at 4:43 pm #793609
JanSParticipantwe were not there, and Travon Martin is dead, so all we have is what GZ told us…we don’t know for sure if TM assaulted anyone. Perhaps he was just “standing his ground”. Or does that only apply to non-blacks?
July 16, 2013 at 4:53 pm #793610
dobroParticipant“Do people really believe it is OK to assault someone who is following you and hassling you.”
There is no proof that Martin assaulted Zimmerman, other than the word of a proven liar. There is proof that Zimmerman stalked and killed a 17 year old.
July 16, 2013 at 5:26 pm #793611
WFMemberthe fact that Treyvon is dead is a travesty. there is a lot of culpability to go around.
rico has a good point in post #63
July 16, 2013 at 7:44 pm #793612
JanSParticipanta question about his post # 63. Do people really believe it is OK to follow and stalk (and scare) an innocent person on a dark rainy night because they are black and wearing a hoodie, so they MUST be up to no good?
July 16, 2013 at 7:52 pm #793613
JoBParticipantrico..
instead of assuming that Trayvon did something wrong..
let’s replay that assuming that Zimmerman had his gun in his hand and had grabbed the kid from behind and swung him around and he was confronted with a guy with a gun ..
still work for your kid?
July 16, 2013 at 9:43 pm #793614
ricoMemberJob wrote
“let’s replay that assuming that Zimmerman had his gun in his hand and had grabbed the kid from behind and swung him around and he was confronted with a guy with a gun ..”
In such a scenario I still question the idea that hitting the person will work out in your favor.
July 16, 2013 at 10:10 pm #793615
WFMemberi think everyone agrees this death was a travesty.
george was likely acting like an over jealous neighborhood security person and treyvon likely did not like being followed. one a young adult and the other a decent sized 17 year old both likely feeling their space was being infringed upon. testosterone kicked in and neither party backed down, things heated up and a young person is now dead.
not being a law expert, i believe that florida’s stand your ground law is why george was not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. in civil court the burden of proof is less and this is the appropriate next action in my opinion.
July 16, 2013 at 10:16 pm #793616
JanSParticipantand then there’s this…just off the wires:
of course, consider the source…and that people will repeat (and exaggerate) anything…
July 16, 2013 at 10:33 pm #793617
anonymeParticipantThis Facebook post by a young black man named Alex Fraser is going viral:
“Dear George Zimmerman,
For the rest of your life you are now going to feel what its like to be a black man in America.
You will feel people stare at you. Judging you for what you think are unfair reasons. You will lose out on getting jobs for something you feel is outside of your control. You will believe yourself to be an upstanding citizen and wonder why people choose to not see that.
People will cross the street when they see you coming. They will call you hurtful names. It will drive you so insane some days that you’ll want to scream at the top of your lungs. But you will have to wake up the next day, put on firm look and push through life.
I bet you never thought that by shooting a black male you’d end up inheriting all of his struggles.
Enjoy your “freedom.”
Sincerely,
A black male who could’ve been Trayvon Martin”
July 16, 2013 at 10:58 pm #793618
WFMemberanomyme – nice post
i remember listening to a black medical doctor a few years back telling several of us listening how he got pulled over for driving his beamer in a nice part of chicago that he had every right to be in. fortunately for him he had id and new how to handle himself (a scenario that should not have happened). from what i heard that officers supervisor received hell for the wrongful stop.
July 16, 2013 at 11:00 pm #793619
happywalkerParticipantI know it was some time after the murder that GZ was still a free man,time enough to go over all of the details with daddy, the judge/, his uncle the cop and his “best friend” who drove him home from the police station, who happens to be a federal air marshall. How convient that gz “friend” frank taafe,(the obnoxious one that was defending him on ALL of the channels,) was so artulate on tv. I’ll bet that he loses much weight soon, now that the trial is over. I think that the whole weight persona was ploy to make him look more vulnerable. Just sayin…
July 16, 2013 at 11:03 pm #793620
JoBParticipantrico..
in that situation, i kicked out and broke a guys knee and then kicked his gun hand as hard as i could and lived.
nuff said.
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