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December 23, 2012 at 9:08 pm #778722
megMemberRB,
When you look at Japan, you will see they are still quite well industrialized and are still making a lot of their own stuff. And Japan still even has a current account surplus, a shrinking one…it’s shrinking as servicing their debt grows (and will continue), exponentially. After 2 decades of trying to get their economy growing again, Japan’s on-balance sheet debt situation is now 240% debt to GDP! That’s 25X their central govt. tax revenue! They will have a crisis, very soon, and it will be a big one. This is very easy to see, it’s just a case of when.
I think the big… the biggest problem facing Developed countries is the size of their Sovereign on-balance-sheet debt situation in relation to tax revenues.
The wider perspective for this is that global credit market debts have grown at around 11% annualized during the last decade… while global population has only grown by 1.2%…and global real GDP has only grown at 3.8%. So, we have a debt growth that’s MILES ahead of population growth and WAY ahead of GDP growth. Scary.
All this perceived “wealth” or “growth” everyone talks about (even if they refer to other people, the rich, or to corporations) is actually Debt. Plain and simple. And Debt-driven booms don’t end well.
December 24, 2012 at 3:49 am #778723
JoBParticipantmeg..
LOL.. whether you measure economies by the parameters of financial markets or by the mean economic status of their citizens..
one thing is clear… ignoring the world bank’s call for austerity and crafting an alternative plan that included public investment paid off for them.
now.. you show me where austerity worked?
December 24, 2012 at 7:05 am #778724
megMemberLOL JoB, economic status of citizens depends upon jobs… which come from private investment… who look to see what’s the country’s fiscal situation and future, and their opportunity to invest & turn a good profit in that country. Yes, for private investment the global financial market view matters a lot. Pension plans, for example.
Anyway, you tell me what *their* (wait, which country are you referring to again) alternative plan was? Austerity comes knocking, wearing many disguises JoB. Where’s the fine line of ‘austerity’ drawn when govt. goes bankrupt and fails to make social welfare payments and other services? When bank deposits are running from the country flowing into other currencies, into foreign banks? When youth labor and high-quality talent is fleeing in droves trying to find jobs in other countries? When the currency is in chaos and hyperinflation? For Spain, they already have the first 3 of those 4 conditions. They’d have #4 too if they had their own currency. Yet being on the Euro is worse for them, actually, because it will prolong their pain, i.e. their austerity.
Anyway. The choice is…Tighten your own belt now, or get it tightened for you. Personally, I’d rather the first. An analogy is deciding to use cash I have on hand, and therefore I must limit what I buy, versus burning up the credit card with no limitations, and facing severe limitations thrust upon me by someone else later on.
*******
Nite,all. Merry Xmas!
December 24, 2012 at 2:31 pm #778725
redblackParticipantmeg: for one thing, japan’s economy sucks because of our debt to them.
secondly, the wealthy and corporations do not have debt, and they are bound and determined not to pay for the debt that they have externalized for the past 30 years.
we, the people, have debt. it’s our new wage.
December 24, 2012 at 5:37 pm #778726
JoBParticipantmeg
“economic status of citizens depends upon jobs… which come from private investment… who look to see what’s the country’s fiscal situation and future, and their opportunity to invest & turn a good profit in that country. Yes, for private investment the global financial market view matters a lot. Pension plans, for example.”
i suppose you could make the argument that when the employment is owned by the employees it is privately owned…
December 24, 2012 at 7:33 pm #778727
hooper1961MemberJoB – i agree jobs are the number 1 priority that needs to get addressed. like i have said numerous times the infrastructure in this country is falling apart and the construction industry and the employees is hurting.
investing in infrastructure has lasting benefits. spending money to extend unemployment provides little lasting benefit to society as a whole. this is why using this money to enhance infrastructure spending is far superior.
raising the gas tax to further enhance infrastructure investment also makes sense and has the side benefit of further encouraging people to shift to more fuel efficient vehicles that is good for the environment!
December 24, 2012 at 9:27 pm #778728
JanSParticipantand if you have no job, or make minimum wage, exactly how the hell are you going to support yourself, a family, pay rent, and still afford that more fuel efficient car? What planet are you from?
December 25, 2012 at 5:41 am #778729
junction heroMemberOverall the government doesn’t give a crap about you. They are in it for themselves. The deterioration of this country is mind blowing in how far we’ve gone backwards. Sixteen months ago the Republicans fillibustered past the Sept.1st deadline after they’ve been talking about it for a year before that. That was the country’s credit debt ceiling crisis. SMall business’ would have gone into bankruptcy and a lot did anyways. The Republicans wouldn’t let President Obama raise the debt ceiling. George W. Bush raised it seven times during his eight years in office. The country was in a recession then and we still are today. Surely you can point the blame on the GOP, but both parties are a bunch of two timing hypocrites! Here we go again with the Fiscal Cliff…lordy!
December 26, 2012 at 12:30 am #778730
JoBParticipantDecember 26, 2012 at 7:02 am #778731
HMC RichParticipantJunction Hero. Officially the recession ended a couple of years ago. Right, Yup, Sure. Stagnation.
JanS told me to “Get Over It”. I can’t even climb it.
And yes Bush and crew did raise the debt ceiling. That spending was too high too. But it was not as much as the current administration either.
And Yes, they do not seem to really care that much either.
Boehner got slapped down by his own party for Plan B. Obama won’t consider cuts while trying to grow government.
Seems we are all going to be paying more taxes. And all they will do in Washington is blame the other party.
Jan or Redblack. I still do think President Obama wants the country to go over the fiscal cliff. Here is why. He kind of promised that he would not raise taxes. If it happens because the House, Senate and Executive office don’t do anything, then he is not culpable. He gets cuts to the military, cuts to the budget automatically, higher tax rates which will bring in some extra revenue. He then can try to tell the House and Senate the Middle Class needs tax rate relief and essentially blame the Republicans.
I can’t stand Boehner. He is too wimpy. I don’t want the fiscal cliff, but I also want the Republicans to stand firm. They have never learned that Democrats renege on fiscal responsibility when cutting deals.
And although taxes would go up on Jan. 1, nothing says they cannot do something about this later.
So say hello to the oncoming recession folks. We are at an impasse. You will have to try and do something the Federal Government can’t do. Spend less because they are going to take more from us.
What a crappy situation to wake up on Jan. 1.
December 26, 2012 at 7:24 am #778732
JanSParticipantbut no one in congress batted an eye when Bush asked…why the difference with this president? Oh, yeah..they’ll do anything, even to the detriment of this country, so long as President Obama fails. How big of them.
I say vote them all out, esp the teabaggers. They care nothing for this country. They will not rest until we’re as poor , as second class, as the nations we give aid to.
Argue all you want Rich. I have no use for the Boehner’s, the Cantor’s, the Ryan’s, the McConnell’s of this world…they are wrong. They give more allegiance to Grover Norquist than they’ve ever given this country…he’s a lobbyist for god’s sake.I equate lobbyists to money hungry slime. And he acts, they act, like he’s some all knowing god. He needs to be out of the equation, and needs to be kicked down the road like a can, to coin a phrase. What a smarmy, self-indulgent, self important, egotistical jerk he is.
And Republicans are not the wonderful party you think they are..you use the word renege like it’s exclusive to the Dems. That’s bullshit…open yur eyes.
I’m sure you have much to say about this, Rich…but in the end, you are changing no one’s mind, nor am I.
I hope that this all works out, but I have no faith in people who say no, and just go home, when something this important is on the line. I have no use for the lot of them.
Spend less, you say? I haven’t worked in 6 months…I don’t get unemployment. I get next to no government assistance, despite what other people on here might think. I doubt very much I could possible spend less than I do now.
We don’t have to wake up to this crappy situation on Jan.01, if people would do the job they’re being paid to do, from the White House on down. Compromise is not a four letter word. Yes, taht’s too damned much to hope for.
December 26, 2012 at 7:44 am #778733
JanSParticipantDecember 26, 2012 at 10:04 am #778734
HMC RichParticipantSure, why not.
Merrry Christmas and a Cr…Happy New Year.
Jan. You need a vacation. Your post seems very harsh. I know you are a nice person but you are sounding lately like you voted for Romney (you know us sore losers!)
Did you go to a TEA Party meeting? Granted many were right wingers but some weren’t. You have no idea or you are afraid to admit some of it.
Also, most people here ignored my post about fiscal responsibility that was touted by Gore. Typical. Your party is greedy with power. Your party has no soul. It uses people and spits them out. It wants government addiction. And I know certain parts of the Republican Party are just as bad. Well, almost. No, Boehner has to go.
Why has your party abandoned common sense spending? I know. Obama and Gregoire paid off the unions. The union dues go straight into the coffers of the Democratic machine. That is money laundering and that is why you guys hate Right To Work states.
Fact is, we need both public and private unions in certain areas. I recognize that. Why can’t you recognize that we can’t afford everything.
You know, I am for most of Simpson Bowles. Since Krugman hates it, I know I am on the right track. I know the President ignored it for awhile and is now deciding he might support some or most of it.
Believe it or not, I bet the Republicans might also. I dislike John Boehner. Not as much as I disliked Pelosi, but he sucks. We need a real conservative as Speaker of the House.
Regarding Simpson Bowles, Obviously we Republicans, think that a 15 cent fuel tax is too high and we don’t want certain military cuts. I don’t want to punish the everyday driver with a 15 cent tax hike. Maybe something less.
But I do support changing the taxation groups to three groups and the lowering of the tax rates.
And I am not opposed to people getting taxed fairly on Dividends etc.
You see, I can compromise. Can You? I may not like all of them, but I can. The world is not always black and white. Besides, why have an EITC? Lower the rates just a bit more.
America is a great country if you let it be that way. I have more faith in the people than I do the government.
December 26, 2012 at 12:20 pm #778735
JoBParticipantRich..
“Jan. You need a vacation.”
if that doesn’t show a disconnect with reality, what does?
1) when do you think she should go?
she checks in for dialysis tuesday, thursday and saturday and wound clinic monday and friday…
none of those appointments are optional if she want to stay alive and keep her foot.
2)what do you think she should use to fund this vacation? She literally hasn’t worked for half of this year.. and her social security barely pays her rent
this is the reality Rich…
for Jan and for too many Americans
i can assure you.. it is not a reality you would care to contemplate
December 26, 2012 at 12:30 pm #778736
redblackParticipantladies and gentlemen, we have a new kootchman in HMC. congratulations, rich. your ears have officially slammed shut and your brain has checked out.
shall i refute your posts point by point? again?
who feeds you this crap, anyway? obama has offered over a trillion dollars in cuts.
better start reading some facts, son – especially when it comes to union dues. because you don’t have one damned clue what you’re babbling about.
December 26, 2012 at 9:22 pm #778737
JanSParticipantthank you, HMC…you really pay attention , don’t you. What JoB said. Yes, I sound harsh. It’s been a damned harsh year for me. Happens when you spend 3 months out of the year in a hospital bed, not working, and another three recovering, not working.Do you really think us libs out there are just happy hunky dory with this economy?
Vacation? this has been my vacation…and it ain’t no warm, tropical beach vacation.
No…I didn’t vote for Romney…his vision was totally wrong, in my book. His only interest was in helping business get over…not the American public, that’s for damned sure. Tell us why you liked him so much.
I figured, with your stint on unemployment, trying to support a family, that you would get it…obviously, you don’t.Beyond me why you don’t.
December 26, 2012 at 11:20 pm #778738
megMember“meg: for one thing, japan’s economy sucks because of our debt to them.”
redblack,
IDK what “our debt to them” means. But if you’re talking about how much US Govt. debt Japan holds, it’s around 1.1 Trillion USD. That’s big, but it’s only 8% of Japan’s Govt debt, which this coming March will surpass 1 Quadrillion Yen (1,086,000,000,000,000)!
Japan’s Finance Minister made the Quadrillion Yen announcement in Jan 2012.
No, Japan’s crisis isn’t their foreign debt holdings. It’s entirely about their OWN on-balance sheet situation. Remember, Japan has gone thru TEN Finance ministers, in the last 6 years! It must be hell. Their currency crisis is now baked into the cake.
December 27, 2012 at 10:21 am #778739
JanSParticipantI chuckle when I hear the righties say it’s all the Dems fault, Obama’s fault..while hearing that today Obama cut his Christmas with his family short and returned to the WH…and found that those in Congress who said no and took their proverbial ball home, are still not back in Washington, and they may not come back. Now tell me who it is that isn’t willing to compromise? I can’t hear you, Rich….
December 27, 2012 at 1:52 pm #778740
redblackParticipantmeg: it’s a fact that our debt to japan and the non-interest we pay them is a drag on our economy. the same thing goes for china and england.
it’s similar to the manner in which wall street is an albatross around the neck of the european economy.
in other words, it’s not the cause, but it sure is a hindrance to effective reform.
December 27, 2012 at 3:01 pm #778741
mtnfreakParticipantI’ve only been able to read a scattering of posts in this thread – some of you are so invested in your arguments that I can’t keep track of who is arguing for what, with which facts.
One “fact” that jumped out at me is the assertion that government spending has only grown since the 1950’s I don’t think that’s true – especially when adjusted for inflation: I googled “US budget history” and one source I found is Wikipedia (which I know I couldn’t use for a university paper, but it does cite its own sources that can be followed up on).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget
A fantastic graphic, that shows recent SPENDING and REVENUE history since 1970 is on the top of the first page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CBO_-_Revenues_and_Outlays_as_percent_GDP.png
Makes me wish for the Clinton administration…
December 27, 2012 at 7:19 pm #778742
JoBParticipantmtnfreak
“Makes me wish for the Clinton administration…”
and he felt they didn’t do enough.
December 27, 2012 at 8:56 pm #778743
SmittyParticipant“A fantastic graphic, that shows recent SPENDING and REVENUE history since 1970 is on the top of the first page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CBO_-_Revenues_and_Outlays_as_percent_GDP.png
Makes me wish for another tech and housing bubble….”
Fixed.
December 27, 2012 at 9:17 pm #778744
TanDLParticipantThe absolute craziness of this fiscal cliff, is that it was created by the very folks fighting over it. Congress and the administration built this cliff, then began wrestling over how not to fall off it, while inching closer and closer the precipice. This whole thing worries me more about the state of our country, the intelligence of our representatives and the ability of our leaders to solve any problem, than the actual debt itself. If you don’t want to fall off a cliff in your backyard, don’t build one there! In my opinion, the fiscal cliff is the dumbest idea for problem solving that has been put forth in a long time!
December 27, 2012 at 11:45 pm #778745
JoBParticipantand the most expensive
December 28, 2012 at 1:27 am #778746
junction heroMemberTanDL…In my mind, the government is doing this on purpouse to create fear. They did this when the credit ceiling deadline passed. I hope they don’t come to any agreement. U.S. citizens needs to wake up and start realizing what’s happening to them by their own government.
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