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March 8, 2012 at 5:13 pm #750059
DBPMemberYa got a problem with [the Church] not being willing to pay for birth control… it’s a small thing in the greater context. A very small thing.
It’s not really a small thing, kootch. In fact, it’s a pretty big thing. That’s what I’m trying to tell ya.
See, it’s not just the cost of birth control pills that’s in play anymore; it’s the whole question of whether the Catholic Church is right or wrong on the issue of contraception. And if you don’t like that, then please remember that we wouldn’t even be TALKING about this if the Church hadn’t decided to take a bold, uncompromising stand and declare that it wasn’t giving one red cent! —if that cent might be spent on contraception.
Still standing by your “no compromise” position? OK, fine. We’ll see where it takes us.
As you and everyone else on this forum should know, the Vatican has a long-and-wrong history of trying to make people feel guilty for enjoying sex. And the direct result of the Church’s teachings on this has been that Catholic families in poorer parts of the world have had more children than they coul afford to feed. And the direct result of that is that countless children have starved to death.
So no, it’s not just a trifle we’re talking about. There’s actually quite a bit at stake. And if the Church keeps pressing its luck on this, there’s going to be a backlash that may cost the Vatican whatever allegiance it still has among the masses of ordinary Catholics.
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On your comment about good works by the Church, I whole-heartedly agree with you. I give them credit for that. But right now we’re talking about contraception.
Wanna talk about good works by the Church? Start another topic. I’ll join. I have many personal stories in that regard.
March 8, 2012 at 5:19 pm #750060
JoBParticipantHMCRich..
are you aware that where preventative healthcare is provided, the costs for urgent care go down substantially?
even insurance companies recognize that preventative care saves them big bucks.. preventative care isn’t what they try to weasel out of..
it’s that really really expensive life saving stuff they don’t want to pay for.
you know… those pre-existing conditions justified by a precautionary remark on your medical file that you might not even be aware of…
the boon to insurance companies..
that everyone had to purchase health insurance of some kind…
which btw could be nothing more than critical care coverage..
was not the only thing legislated by the political compromise you insist on calling Obamacare…
denying your insurance company the right to weasel out of the care you contracted and paid for was also part of that package.
I agree that Obamacare is a rotten deal for john Q…
universal healthcare should have received at least a seat at the table when the compromises were made…
but a violation of the constitution?
that’s been a pretty hard sell in anything but the most politically motivated conservative federal court districts.
perhaps you should fight those car insurance mandates too…
your rates for uninsured motorist coverage would go through the roof…
but heck.. it’s your right as a citizen to avoid undue taxation!
a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do ;->
March 8, 2012 at 7:10 pm #750061
kootchmanMemberI have the option to choose to drive or not. I am not mandated by congress to buy uninsured motorist protection if I choose not to drive. Why even the state in lawsuit after lawsuit where it has denied driving “rights” say it is nit a right.. It;s not the insurance company profit and loss at issue. It’s a violation of the First Amendment and congress overstepping its limits on the commerce clause. Regulating trade does not mean you force trade. Every insurance commissioner in every state could have simply required pre-existing conditions to be covered. We didn’t need Obamacare. Uh JoB … in a week or so.. the US Supreme Court is taking up the issue, you call over half the states “only the most conservative” ? The majority of American want it killed. Every poll says it.. even the behavior of the President and congress who passed it say so. If it was such a high water mark… they sure aren’t rolling it out as the numero uno achievement of the last 3 years are they? They can read the poll numbers. Obamacare is a turkey…. I tell ya this… you will rue the day … Obamacare has one fatal flaw… to protect all the exceptions, favors, waivers etc… over 12,000 of them so far…the law says you cannot sever those portions found objectionable at later date. So when your labor/union plans are found to violate equal protection clauses…. that cadillac plan you love.. goes away. Dependency and Mediocrity… DeMe – ocrats.
March 8, 2012 at 8:46 pm #750062
elikapekaParticipantThe article? Very biased article from a very biased source. Every administration has these fights. Yawn.
My predicton – The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) will be upheld by the Supreme Court under the interstate commerce clause.
And it’s funny, people say they’re against it until you ask about the individual provisions, and then they like those – you know, no pre-existing conditions, no canceling your coverage when you get sick, allowing your children to maintain coverage until age 26, all those details. Yes, people like that a lot.
And this whole thing could be avoided by just opening up Medicare to everyone.
That is all.
March 9, 2012 at 8:09 am #750063
HMC RichParticipantArticle from a right wing source but since the supposed middle of the road sources are covering the Pretender in Chiefs bum, someone has to do it. Look, when someone posts a link from Mother Jones or the Daily Kos, I have an idea what I am going to get but I don’t immediately dismiss it out of hand either. Unless it is Matt Taibi with Rolling Stone. He is the only journalist that I have banned myself from reading.
JoB, did you know Obama has cleared the way for our government to kill US citizens overseas? Holder was defending it.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/05/us-usa-security-americans-idUSTRE82402420120305
That wasn’t Bush, that wasn’t Cheney. That was Obama and Biden. As Joe probably said at some point, This is a pretty effin big deal.
Yes, JoB, I do know about preventative health care. It should be affordable and it is not.
In fact this ramp up to Obamacare is causing rates to skyrocket.
Elikapedia, you could be right about Medicare, but you are wrong about Obamacare. It is not a tax. It will not fall under the Interstate Commerce Clauses. Not unless someone steps way out of the grid in the Judicial System and causes a new precedent to happen. I don’t want to get into Roe v Wade, but if both houses of the congress voted to outlaw abortion and the president signed it, then abortion would again not be legal Federally. It can be overturned. I doubt if that happens but it is not an amendment, neither is Obamacare.
JoB, Kootch is right about car insurance. If you do not drive you do not need car insurance. Comparing the two is useless.
As far as contraceptives go, why should Gays and Lesbians pay for contraceptives and other procedures and drugs under HHS guidelines? Under Obamacare, every person would have to pay into the system whether they want to or not. That means the citizen is already paying for services that they may be opposed to. But they would be forced to pay or get fined. That is beyond the role of the Federal Governments reach. Some of you may bring up you have to pay for schools even though you do not have kids. That is different, that is local or state mandated through your property taxes. If you are against it, sell your house and rent.
Look, I see the injustice of the medical/insurance costs. I commend people for looking for a better way. I personally believe that…Social Security and Medicare (and Medicaid) should be changed. I believe 1) Social Security should be a savings account that is off-limits to the House and Senate. Kill Pay as you go. 2) All people working from age 18 to 67 whether W2 or 1099 should have to contribute 5% of those wages. The payroll tax was 6% until recently which is shortchanging the system. 3)Since all people 18-67 will be paying into the system, it should cover all children birth to 17 and 364 days old. It should also cover retired people 67 and older. 4) Certain people over a certain amount should not get the benefit until their “income” drops below a certain level. 5) There is more but I am too tired to finish.
It seems to me, children and the elderly need healthcare the most. But since I am definitely not an expert I do not know the legality of changing the Entitlements. But please stop the BS about Obama caring more. He does not. It is all about power.
March 9, 2012 at 2:36 pm #750064
TDeParticipant“Under Obamacare, every person would have to pay into the system whether they want to or not. That means the citizen is already paying for services that they may be opposed to. But they would be forced to pay or get fined. That is beyond the role of the Federal Governments reach.”
So what’s new? You have to pay income taxes and there are things our taxes support that we all object to, but we still have to pay. I objected all over the place against the war in Iraq but still was forced by the federal government to pay taxes.
Medicare? You’re paying for a lot of fraud and abuse by doctors and patients alike. Sure it should be changed, but no matter; you still pay.
Social Security? You are paying for a small percentage who might be scamming the system. You still pay.
You pay for private insurance? I don’t think my insurance dollars should support some guy’s Viagra, but I don’t have a say in that and I still have to pay the bill to the private company if I want health insurance. And it’s darned expensive, too!
You pay for car insurance? I don’t think my insurance dollars should support lousy drivers, but I still have to pay car insurance or quit driving and I just can’t do that right now.
You pay sales tax, excise tax, payroll tax, car tab tax? Same thing.
What about utility bills? Every time I see a utility worker hanging out I know that my hard earned dollars are paying his salary. But, if I want lights or water or garbage pick-up I have no choice.
Cable TV – Satellite TV? I’ve only got one choice of cable and don’t like all the sports channels… but I gotta pay for them if I want to get the other channels. Even with satellite you gotta buy the package.
Want to gas up your car? You gotta buy the additives in the gas. Gotta take a ferry? You’re paying for the good as well as the lousy workers. Gotta drive a toll bridge? You’re paying for the icky paint color.
The list goes on and on. And yeah, I could live like a monk… without electricity, water, garbage pick up, a car, gas, TV, insurance, etc. We all pay for parts of packages we object to if we want to live a normal life in this country. I don’t understand why this particular health care plan is so different from any other tax you have to pay or package you buy and why all the screaming about it.
March 9, 2012 at 4:53 pm #750065
JoBParticipantHMCRich..
regardless of all the smoke and mirrors…
mandatory car insurance and mandatory health insurance are similar. They both spread the risk over a larger population base therefore limiting costs.
kootch is right.. you do have the option to avoid paying car insurance by not driving…
but critical health care is mandatory for all citizens.. paid out of our taxes..
there is no way to opt out of the risk that you will cause your fellow citizens to incur costs by opting out of health insurance.
i suppose you could blow your head off to prevent becoming a medical burden to others..
but too often that plan backfires with unintended consequences for everyone:(
as for those rising costs for preventative care that you think are tied to Obamacare…
please present your case.
all available evidence points to the contrary.
March 9, 2012 at 4:56 pm #750066
JoBParticipantHMCRich..
couldn’t resist:->
Matt Taibi too challenging for you?
He does cover some pretty complex issues fairly thoroughly.
March 9, 2012 at 6:35 pm #750067
redblackParticipantrich: re: post 25:
“Promote the General Welfare” does not mean the Federal Government should provide healthcare.
where in obamacare does it state that the federal government is providing health care? or even health insurance? there’s no new federal agency that is available to poor people instead of insurance companies. HHS is not going into the insurance business. obamacare is legislation that seeks to insure every american, since insurance companies have dictated that you must have it in order to see a doctor… and since our access rates for the working poor are the worst in the industrialized world… and since our costs are the highest.
who gave the insurance industry the right to be the gatekeeper for the medical industry? i don’t see that in the constitution or the u.s. code.
(by the way, it’s actually called the ACA – the affordable care act – and it was written by congress, not obama. but if you want to use a pejorative term, it doesn’t bother me.)
Also, I have for the past three years been on and off health care plans. Medical Services are much cheaper when you are not on a plan, but major health problems are super duper expensive. Lets see. I did use COBRA briefly, but COBRA is EXPENSIVE!!!!!, then went to Lifewise, then I went to an HMO. I could have qualified for some of the State Plans for a bit but did not.
so you don’t have access to health insurance through your employer? or do you choose not to participate?
in any case, if your employer doesn’t offer access to health insurance in exchange for some kind of payroll deduction, the ACA seeks to remedy that situation. as the second-largest employer in the united states, wal-mart is one of the biggest offenders. they tell their employees that if they can’t afford health insurance, they are to apply for medicaid. and you do pay for medicaid.
No, insurance should have been for high dollar issues, operations, costly medications and not for every day exams etc. This is where the medical profession and the insurance companies have screwed the consumer.
exactly! so who has authority to remedy this injustice?
you argue that states should have the authority to sue insurance companies to keep their prices down and improve access. and they do. but when an insurance company’s revenues are larger than most states’, how do you expect anything to change? as such, it’s cheaper for insurance companies to settle than it is for them to comply with judgments against them if they lose.
but you also state that insurance companies should be able to operate in multiple states, and, i assume, that consumers in washington should be able to buy insurance from states where it’s cheaper.
so whose jurisdiction is interstate commerce?
Finally, Obamacare steals our rights. It is a life controlling document that gives so much power to HHS.
what rights? your right not to buy insurance? that’s great! i respect that argument.
but what happens if your kid gets lymphoma?
have you never asked yourself why it’s cheaper for you to pay cash to doctors? our beef is with insurance companies. not you. not your rights to get sick if you want to. not with christian scientists. not with doctors.
Remember the little girl whose lunch was deemed not appropriate and was given chicken nuggets?
isn’t this a local school district issue? what does it have to do with obamacare?
Obamacare is about control.
right again!
it’s about insurance companies’ control of the health care industry in america, and it is time to pry the two apart and say, “now wait just one minute here. this is my doctor, and i’m not going to let some actuary determine the best course of treatment for me.”
and i want you to be really honest with me here, rich.
do you honestly believe that obamacare seeks to create a federal insurance program and supplant the insurance industry? do you think that it seeks to put some HHS flunky between you and your doctor?
obamacare is about control. it’s about stopping insurance companies from controlling who can see a doctor and how much procedures cost.
so if you’re honest, and you have at least skimmed the ACA, and you understand what is happening, and you’re not just repeating some talking points because they tug your heartstrings at the thought of your children’s freedom to get sick and die if they want and not have some high-falutin’ liberal telling them “no,” then it’s not your rights you’re worried about. it’s aetna’s rights you’re fighting for.
JoB, Kootch is right about car insurance. If you do not drive you do not need car insurance. Comparing the two is useless.
you’re right again!
but if your kidneys fail, you do need health insurance.
driving is a choice. kidney failure is not.
but to sum it all up, i don’t think the ACA goes far enough fast enough. i’d like to see insurance companies replaced with a single-payer federal system. but i’d settle for a good state-run system here in washington, accessible to all residents. got an ID? bank statement? proof of address? boom! you’re covered. homeless? boom! free urgent care, courtesy of the taxpayer. take profit out of it and everyone’s cost drops. and no b.s. about what’s covered and what’s not, who’s eligible and who’s not, who can afford a kidney and who can’t. think of it as the biggest insurance pool ever. no more premiums paid by employers. (imagine all of the economic freedom our industries would have if they didn’t have insurance bills weighing them down.) no more deductibles paid by you! (okay maybe $500 for surgery or something.) no more shopping for individual screw-job insurance plans.
hell, no more insurance industry, except for wealthy people who want elective surgeries and procedures…
which are currently covered by my insurance company and which i shouldn’t have to pay for..
March 9, 2012 at 7:30 pm #750068
JanSParticipantpoint of fact, Redblack…HMCRich is self-employed – no employer to provide health care benefits…
March 9, 2012 at 9:41 pm #750069
kootchmanMemberTde… “to provide for the common defense”… that’s why you are taxed for it. It’s a constitutional authority granted to the feds. It one power they do have.
DBP… you don’t get to tell any faith group what is right and what is wrong. The first amendment says faith groups are protected from the government. It’s not your call.
redblack… Obamacae will be like every other government boondoggle… it will bloat and grow with civil servants, immune from productivity incentives, we have every federal agency in existence as a model. It will deliver an inferior product at an inflated cost. And… it will bankrupt us .. just as the wave of insolvency that is sweeping across Europe is starting…
March 9, 2012 at 11:01 pm #750070
redblackParticipantObamacae will be like every other government boondoggle… it will bloat and grow with civil servants, immune from productivity incentives, we have every federal agency in existence as a model. It will deliver an inferior product at an inflated cost. And… it will bankrupt us ..
objection!
speculation, your honor.
March 10, 2012 at 2:22 am #750071
kootchmanMemberIt’s not speculation when you can observe it. The Chinese are soo grateful though. Their road building programs, their ability to increase their manufacturing, invest in telecomm, consume vast energy reserves, all that… because they know, that to continue to fund all this slop… for every $1.00 we spend, they have been loaning .40 cents to our deficit driven government… forever making us pay all that interest expense to them for generations to come. We have to take it…. cause we can’t meet our entitlements without them. Close your eyes redblack, whistle past the graveyard… we can do this forever!!! Just ask Greece. The more we borrow, the more jobs we ship overseas, the more we borrow the more we enable competitive nations to clean our clocks… but heck … we don’t care. We are immune.
March 10, 2012 at 3:32 pm #750072
redblackParticipantlike i said before, we didn’t borrow anything. they “borrowed” it (more like stole it) and they are going to pay it back by putting the top marginal tax rates back where they belong.
twist it any way you want to, but the fact is that the deficit spending started with the exorbitant tax cuts in the ’80’s. it’s a direct relationship, and there’s nothing you can do to change that fact. it was childish, self-serving, and stupid.
as far as other nations cleaning our clocks, i’m all for isolationism and protectionism. slam the effing door, pay them back, and don’t open it again. get out of global energy exploration, resource exploitation, and quit playing world cop. right now china relies on our debt. i say pay it back and flood them with dollars. screw ’em.
March 10, 2012 at 8:25 pm #750073
waynsterParticipantI fine it amazing how the right just hates the fact that the poor and the elderly can get health care at no cost or very little cost. Yet they don’t criticizes the fact that romneycare works in Massachusetts witch is what obamacare is based on and is starting to work. Have yet to see them death squads that Sara Palin said would happen. What I am hearing is the death squads from the GOP basically saying if your poor can’t afford healthcare then you should just die and go away. This country is not a third world country where its poor should suffer and go hungry and die from lack of affordable health care and housing…..Is this what we want? No its not… we can afford to go to war we can afford basic health care for all….. Yet it was ok for G.W Bush and co. they could skirt the courts and other constitutional items the very things Obama is doing and it was ok just like all presidents before him did so why question President Obamas moves when other pesidents did the same dam thing…..
March 11, 2012 at 12:25 am #750074
kootchmanMemberIt amazes me. You don’t have to be fiscal genius. If you returned to the highest tax rates as redblack would fantasize…it wouldn’t even come close to covering SS, deficits. It’s not even a drop in the bucket. We havr a 17 trillion dollar deficit. Add the entitlements, and the total liability for the federal liability entitlements is north of 135 trillion over the next 20 years. Now, add federal pensions, and whatever we choose to spend on the military. In the aggregate, the private model has extended the life of all Americans remarkably. What’s next… for social acceptance and esteem… all men get covered for hair transplants from Bosley? There are death squads now Waynster… organ transplant teams do it every day. This country will be third world in short order … when you can’t balance a budget.
Jobs and budget cutting… that’s what puts the system on track. Neither one is an Obama objective. He spends from an empty cookie jar. We are back to tax and spend liberals… here comes the course correction. When you ask others to subsidize your sexual behaviors… it’s a step too far.
Mass Cost trends
Private Coverage
Private insurance covers the largest proportion of the population. Estimated spending per member year for residents enrolled in employer-sponsored or individual coverage was $4,427 in 2008, or one-third that of either Medicare or MassHealth (Table 1
Mass AVERAGE cost..? $14, 383 per enrollee. And rising faster than private…
and as you say Waynster… it’s just starting…
March 11, 2012 at 12:30 am #750075
kootchmanMemberHow many states filed suits filed lawsuits against RR, W, RN, for violations of federal constitutional overreach? Take a hint waynster MOST states are telling the feds they are overstepping their bounds.
March 11, 2012 at 3:11 am #750076
redblackParticipantcorrection: most republican states are telling the feds… whatever crazy crap they thought up this week.
and while most states are republican, there are more people in the blue states.
March 11, 2012 at 3:28 pm #750077
waynsterParticipantGeeeee… when something is working and not going the republican way they sure get defensive….sounds like when medicare started it won’t work its just going to cost cost cost…..well it worked and still is….survived the courts too as far as who likes and dislikes polls show about even and growing more in favor and romneycare its in a BLUE state….imagine that…What does hair plants for men have to do with it are you president of the club j/k…..lol…Organ transplants yea ever try for one 2yr waiting list and thats if your clean ….unless your rich but that’s ok……when you look through red you will always be blue….. you won’t be happy until you do become blue…
March 11, 2012 at 5:37 pm #750078
JanSParticipantI am tired of Kootch calling organ transplant teams “death squads”. That’s effing far from the truth, and he knows it. It’s incendiary, and it’s an untruth.No one is deliberately killing people so others can have their organs Am I supposed to feel guilty because I may get a deceased person’s kidney? Waynster, 2 year wait? Make that more like 4 or 5 year wait in a lot of cases. If organ transplant teams were doing this you’d think that we’d all be getting transplants left and right.
Kootch, before you spout off like that, put yourself in my shoes. Oh, you can’t do that, can you? Yeah, I’m a little defensive when it comes to this. Kootch, if you don’t want to donate your organs, then don’t.And keep you trap shut about it. But please don’t try to poison others minds about it so they decide not to.
March 11, 2012 at 6:07 pm #750079
waynsterParticipantSorry jan you are right a coworker has been waiting now for 2yrs and now he says it could take longer and thats if he is not by passed…
March 11, 2012 at 6:25 pm #750080
JanSParticipantIs he waiting for a kidney? In essence, you are not put at the end of the line when you get on the list. It depends on blood types, and crossmatches for antibodies, and whether or not that person is compatible with your tissues. I am pursuing live donors (which has a better outcome by percentages), and hopefully, if everything works out, I may have a kidney before early summer.
I get very defensive when people like Kootch think they know it all, and start saying that people are killed to harvest their organs. That’s far from the truth.
March 11, 2012 at 9:32 pm #750081
kootchmanMemberJaN you are dead wrong again. The original “death panels” the Republicans were concerned about are those appointed to ration health care. It happens right here in WA State.. if you read. Our very own state was giving out Rx for methadone instead of more expensive pain management After numerous deaths from overdose, and bad press the state death panel relented. You wouldn’t qualify for transplant in some countries. You wouldn’t be on any list. I am not talking about the wait list. I am talking about the rationing of health care. It happens in socialized medicine. I don’t want a government healthcare arbitrating what medicines I can and can’t get. Happens right now in the VA….there is an “approved” list of medications. If the most effective treatment is not on their approved list.. tough luck.
Your statement borders on moronic. Show mw where I said people are killed to harvest their organs? You can’t..what a twit statement.
Fortunately, the low countries, refused to join the original 13 colonies unless, the had equal representation in the Senate,, and an equal voice in the constitutional amendments. The states were given more latitude in majority rule specifically so the self interest of the major population states could not exert self interest on them.
March 11, 2012 at 9:43 pm #750082
kootchmanMemberThat is the nature of liberals…waynster, close your eyes, hide your head in the sand… as long as next months goodie check is in the mail. NO one with a IQ above a gnat says that Medicaid or Medicare are sustainable. I could have done much better with that 14% of my income than funding deficits by my SS … and … left more of an inheritance to my heirs. Remember this… $40 of every $100 the federal government takes in is borrowed money…. could you do that with your credit cards? Not for long.
From that rag…. Politico
The new Medicare trustees report says the trust fund is now likely to run out of money in 2024, five years earlier than predicted last year
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54933.html#ixzz1oqYNMEFt
And your Messiah and his underlings which pegged Treasuries which back SS and Medicare, effectively yield nothing, like 1/2 of one per cent.. which doesn’t cover base inflation. It’s what bananna republic economies due… print money, give the idiot masses inflated dollars so they think they are getting richer, while their dollars are worth less. Then, they pay off their fixed obligations ( like Treasuries to China et al) with devalued dollars. That is the Obamanomics plan…. is it too complicated to figure out? Probably.. liberals can’t. Every party has a hangover.
What’s even more ironic…. the “middle class tax cut” is your SS fund being shorted. You are all too funny. You are underfunding your own retirement, shortening the life span, or reducing benefits, or raising your payroll tax in the future. Some great choices for an average of $48 per month.
March 11, 2012 at 9:49 pm #750083
JanSParticipantKootch…look..we have a difference of opinion here…I really don’t care what you’re saying..I’m tired of you calling it “death squads”, when it comes to transplants. Don’t donate…don’t believe it. But don’t undermine the need for donating.I quote :”There are death squads now Waynster… organ transplant teams do it every day.” death squads? seriously?
Of course I’m wrong. I’m only involved with the transplant clinic, i.e., getting one. Of course I’m wrong…and of course, as always, you are god almighty right.
Bordering on moronic? Go away. I’m done with you. You don’t have civil enlightened conversations. You accuse, you accuse, you belittle, you belittle, and it’s tiresome. You bring nothing positive to conversations in your rantings to always be right.
Believe in death panels all you want. You repeat what you hear from Palin’s lips, from others lips. It’s amazing how many talking points get into your rantings…things that others have said and you repeat..”death panels”, “ponzi schemes”… so continue with your whatever you want here. I’m done with you..it’s – YOU – not worth the aggravation !
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