Denouncing and Renouncing

[beachdrivegirl]

And I never said anyting but supporint Obama is stealing what I said was that anything but supporting the canidate with the biggest lead would be stealing and it would be stealing from the voters!

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

one more time…

if the DNC had wanted a system where a small popular lead would determine the candidate, they would have left things alone.

they experienced that problem once already…

that’s what created superdelegates.

good system, bad system? who knows?

it’s our system.

it’ the system Obama chose to run in.

It is the system he is still running in.

There is still plenty of time for him to convince enough delegates of all kinds that he is the guy… before the convention.

if he does so, he will almost surely be the candidate… he would have to do something pretty stupid himself to change that.

If he doesn’t, it’s an open convention.

Nobody gets to steal anything.. no matter how people use language to paint it that way. Hillary has done nothing illegal or dishonest.

You might not like her tactics.. and that is your right. I don’t like Obama’s tactics.

but that’s all they are .. tactics.. campaign strategies…

how many times does this need to be explained?

This is just basic politics 101.

And it has nothing to do with either candidate.

BTW.. just to put a little perspective to all of this.. when Hillary was originally courting those superdelegates and Obama wasn’t.. she had a lead in the delegate count.

It was only when he realized he couldn’t win the delgate count he needed to secure the democratic nomination without them and couldn’t get her to withdraw from the race … that he began to make such a fuss over superdelegates and tried to get the rules changed.

The people haven’t spoken beachdrivegirl..

half the people don’t agree with you and they are getting cranky at being dismissed as tho they didn’t exist.

This is what the primary and the convention are for… to allow all of the people to be heard.

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[beachdrivegirl]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/the-latest-clinton-canard_b_93508.htm

I dont know why I continue to voice this to you. I realize you are as stubborn as I am and we are both going to stick ot our guns.

And my guns are that if Hillary does manage to change pledged delegates votes and/or gain the superdelegates she needs to win then it is stealing. You are right she isnt doing anything illegal but she is in the process of destroying the Democratic party! And that concerns me. And Obama isnt the one making such a fuss about the delegate count it is more than half of the Democrats that are!! We arent tyring to dismiss anyone we are tyring to follow through on our ideals. If Clinton really pulls this to the convention, and she manages to get the Democratic nomination, then she is defying the political process and I will not stand for it. If she ends up on the ballot as the Presidential Democratic nominee come November then basically we dont need primaries or cuacuses or elections. All we need is our elite little party of superdelegates and the electoral college to decide what is right for us and I wont be part of a party that is going to do that.

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[JoB]

another local take on politics 101…

http://www.seattleweekly.com/2008-03-26/news/your-delegate-may-not-be-registered-to-vote.php

those delegates you think you have for Obama.. not unless they are legal and they show up in april.

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[charlabob]

(54) JoB, thank you for posting the link. I will check with King county and the local LD in the morning to see if they need assistance in vetting delegates. I assume you will be doing the same.

By the way, I saw nothing in the article that indicated possible unregistered delegates were limited to Obama delegates. I will also be checking to ensure that Clinton delegates are scrutinized with equal vigor.

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[JoB]

I am sorry beachdrivegirl.. i couldn’t follow the link to whatever it was you wanted us to read.. i got page not found.

and it doesn’t really matter.

this is to all of you who keep talking about Hillary stealing the election…

I am sorry that you don’t understand or simply don’t approve of the process…. but i am done trying to educate those who simply won’t understand…

I get that not understanding is a choice and I am tired of running into the same brick wall.

this is the brick wall:

You don’t like the way things are playing out. You are impatient and not willing to go through the process which gives every candidate the chance to become our nominee. so you label the process stealing and think that vindicates your unwillingness to give an equal chance to all candidates.

Obama has had the same opportunity to ask for commitments from the superdelegates as Hillary had. He simply chose not to exercise that option until he realized he may need it.

Even then he chose to try to get the rules changed instead of lobbying for those delegates. so he got a really late start.

This is your candidate’s problem. He made bad choices and it is slowing down his nomination.

This has nothing to do with Hillary.

Hillary didn’t create the process… She has simply worked the process effectively.

That is campaigning effectively….not cheating.

Obama is now trying to undermine the process once more by asking his constituents to put pressure on their public superdelegates to vote with their state’s primary…

Mind you.. he doesn’t think that should happen in states like Massachusets where he couldn’t carry the state but does carry the superdelegates.

he would much rather selective enforcement of pressuring superdelegates to commit to the “will of their state”.

I personally think that undermines the intent of the system.. which was to make certain that the candidate had the support of the OVERWHELMING majority of the popular vote and to ensure that a popularity contest couldn’t overcome the party’s need for a viable candidate.

the superdelegates are supposed to vote their conscience.. not echo their state’s majority.

I could call that and every other attempt to change the rules cheating.. including his attempts to block any kind of recount in Michigan and Florida.. thereby denying those states any chance at popular representation.

If he is truly the overwhelming choice of the people.. he shouldn’t have been afraid in give those voters their say as well.

However, i am willing to give every candidate their opportunity to secure the nomination… so i haven’t labeled him a cheat.. tho his record would indicate far less respect for the rules or the process than Hillary’s does.

I understand your impatience…

but what i don’t and can’t understand is your complete willingness to write off anyone who supports Hillary as not important…

and a party that would allow her to actually win this contest by the rules that were set out when she began it… as not worthy of your support.

The alternative to not supporting whatever democratic candidate is nominated… is a republican presidency… 4 more years of what you have now… and the almost certainty of the supreme court locked into a solid right wing position for the next decade.. and probably more… with the law they create in the meantime lasting far longer.

beachdrivegirl.. it’s nothing personal.. but your repeated statements that you can’t support a party that would allow anyone but Obama to be the nominee make it impossible to converse.

So.. I gave it the day… and am up against the same realization i faced this morning.

This is not conversation… There is no interest in the Obama camp on this thread in any kind of conversation… and all i am doing by posting in support of Hillary is facilitating a platform for Obama supporters to repeat any kind of slander enough times that people somehow think it is the truth.

Since i don’t believe lies told repeatedly become truth.. and i believe only in conversation.. not confrontation… i will not post here again.. no matter what is said.

In fact.. i don’t think i will even read this thread any longer because it is simply too tempting to me to correct blatant untruths… and more important, the more i read the less i feel like working for Obama in the fall if he is the nominee.

Instead of convincing me that Obama was the right nominee.. all you have done is try to convince me that Hillary is a bad… by repeating every talking point that has come out of FOX news.. and then blaming her for FOX coming after Obama.

In fact, as far as i can see.. if a tornado hit Obama’s house tomorrow, you would somehow make even that Hillary’s fault.

You have not won my heart and mind.. and you had every opportunity to do so. You didn’t even manage to shut me up.

All that you have done is cause a ton of hard feelings.

Right now, today, I no longer want to have anything to do with democratic politics… and i would bet that if i feel that way there are a lot of democratic voters who felt the same long ago.

Obama is a very lucky candidate. Not because he is black, but because our nation is in such a mess that most Clinton supporters will vote for him anyway.. because any breathing democrat will be a better option for America in the fall than John McCain.

It’s too bad so many Obama supporters don’t have the same kind of commitment we do. It’s that lack of commitment to what is right.. not who is right.. that worries me about Mr Obama.. and about his supporters.

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[JoB]

charla..

i have already spoken with the person handling the bookwork for our precinct.. because there were what appeared to be errors…

i don’t intend to challenge anyone… it’s not my style…

i merely posted the link to point out that even at the state level.. it isn’t over until it is over.

this is a process, not a foregone conclusion.

I am closing this thread now.

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[charlabob]

<SNARK ALERT> You are closing this thread now? I hope that doesn’t mean I’m not “allowed” to post this. I’ll risk it <END SNARK>

I’m saying I will check tomorrow to see if MY party needs my assistance in validating delegates — helping to solve the problem, no matter who benefits or doesn’t.

I went back and read my original response — nothing there could have led anyone to believe I was accusing you of challenging delegates. I merely said that I wanted to be sure any process vetted all delegates (even the leftover Edwards ones.)

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[JoB]

all i meant is that i am personally closing this thread and i do not intend to open it again.. even to read what you choose to post.

and i wasn’t implying anything about you when i said what i had already done… and did… or did not intend to do…

Your confrontational response to what you assumed was a personal affront in my post only confirms my need to quit this thread.

The antagonism here has created an atmosphere where anyone with a differing opinion is immediately assigned nefarious motives.

sorry.. that’s not me.

i will show up as a Hillary alternate because i have pledged to do so… but i have no intention of becoming involved in any of that … not my style.

that says volumes about me.. but nothing about you.

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[charlabob]

Nothing left to say. That would matter.

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[JanS]

more denouncing and renouncing…this was in this morning’s NYT…Gail Collins can be pretty humorous at times :)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/10/opinion/10collins.html?th&emc=th

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