Deep Bore Tunnel Public Forum Fri at the Market

[captainDave]

Citizens for Seattle Tube and Cascadia plan to present the new “third option” for replacing of the Alaskan Way Viaduct to a public forum. Come join us on Friday, January 9th between 7:00 PM and 9:00 PM at the Top of the Market meeting room (93 Pike Street at the pig) in the heart of the Pike Place Market. This is a big deal. We may actually have a chance at solving one of Seattle’s most contentious transportation issues in recent years!

Seattle Tube proposes a twin tunnel under 6th Avenue with a new expressway to link I-90 to West Seattle. Cascadia proposes a single bore tunnel under 1st with an alignment to the existing 99 route. We believe either deep bore tunnel approach is better for Seattle than what is currently on the table. Come share your ideas and concerns.

It is your city. This is a unique situation where concerned citizens can triumph over special interests and half-hearted government efforts to solve a complex problem.

See our web site at http://www.SeattleTUBE.org for more info.

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[Zenguy]

I am for any tunnel option that has exits into downtown (otherwise, what is the point?) is not way out of line with other options and this one can even be done without interfering with current use of the Viaduct.

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[JoB]

if what i read is correct.. it will only take 12 years…

it will disrupt downtown traffic.. just not in the same places… but in places that may be of more concern to West Seattle residents who have found work around solutions to downtown gridlock utilizing 509 and SoDo.

also.. will the viaduct be ok for another 12 years without major work.. or more likely 14 or 15 by the time all the studies have been done?

Citizens for Seattle Tube and Cascadia plan have a great marketing presentation..

but where is the science?

and why are they only including cost projections for their project.. when the cost projections for the viaduct replacement options include other waterfront area work that will still have to be publicly funded?

and last, they are presenting this as a new option.. but it is my impression that this has already been through a review process and was rejected… ???????

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[captainDave]

We do not believe that it will take 12 years to bore a tunnel. For instance, the twin bore transit tunnel through beacon hill only took a couple of years. Granted it is about half the length and about 30 ft in diameter vs 53′. We think it is probably more like a 4 to 5 year construction project.

My understanding is that viaduct must come down by 2012 regardless, as mandated recently by the Governor. So there may be a time period where Seattle will experience a traffic snarl. But those details have yet to be worked out.

Much has been studied already so repurposing what was learned probably should not take that much time (we hope). The science is ultimately funded by WSDOT. We are just an independent citizens group with a different approach to solving the problem. The science will prove one way or the other. We just want it to be equally evaluated as it holds many benefits that the other options lack.

The waterfront work will no longer be tied to transportation. That doesn’t mean it goes away. It just gets looked at as one of the many independent issues the city deals with each year.

What was originally rejected in March 2007 was a cut and cover tunnel that presented a myriad of problems and a long construction period. The bored tunnel option is completely different process and in a different location alignment than the original trench tunnel proposal.

WSDOT admits that it severely padded recent figures when looking at a bored tunnel due to linking it with surface street and other unrelated costs.

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[JenV]

no offense, Capt Dave – but I would NEVER ride in a tunnel in downtown Seattle. The whole downtown area is fill, isn’t it? What happens in an earthquake? I recognize that my chances on the Viaduct aren’t great in an earthquake either…but I have often wondered about the tunnel option and whether it makes real sense. Any info you can provide in regard to possible tunnel failure in an earthquake would be appreciated.

Although, anything has to be better than the silly ass surface option being proposed. That will cripple West Seattle.

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[mellaw6565]

Independent Citizens Groups? Who provides your funding? Do you have any corporate or developer sponsors? Inquiring minds want to know.

It’s clear that a tunnel provides more benefits to those interests (corp. & devel.) than individual citizens in W. Seattle.

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[GenHillOne]

Jen, since the bay area quake sandwiched so many cars, I ALWAYS think about that on the viaduct. I used to drive northbound (on top) daily, but rarely southbound. Silly perhaps, but the older that thing gets, the more I think about it. I’d rather have a chance by dropping the extra 20 feet than get crushed!

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[inactive]

I get the worry about tunnel safety, given the fill, but here is something to contemplate, fwiw.

There is currently a tunnel (there are a number under Seattle) which is used, and has been used for many decades, by the trains to go under the city.

So, no tragic accidents in all of the years that that tunnel has been used every day, right under downtown Seattle. It was built MANY years ago in the solid clay soil. No worries. It has withstood all of the big earthquakes and it was built without modern engineering safety measures.

I find that knowledge very comforting, personally.

http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&File_Id=4029

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[wingme]

captainDave…nice websites and well-written layman’s descriptions of alternatives, but I too am waiting for answers to some of the above questions.

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[JoB]

WestSeattleDood..

the train tunnel was built when we still over engineered so things would last…

now we do a cost benefit analysis for acceptable failure:(

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[captainDave]

mellaw6565: No corporate funding at this time. just out of pocket so far.

JenV: Just the areas down near sea level are fill including the DoDo district. Most of the areas above 1st ave downtown are not fill. My understanding is that concrete lined bored tunnels are about the safest place to be in an earthquake. Lots of info online about it. Easy experiment: put an egg in a box of sand, then drop the box. Try the same thing without the box.

JoB: Today’s structural concrete is actually much better than the old stuff primarily because they use a lot more reinforcement. Transportation infrastructures are built to higher standards today (unlike other products)

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[JoB]

captaindave…

it’s obvious you are not an engineer…

while it is true to say that today’s structural concrete may be better than the old stuff per cubic inch… depending upon the application… because it is “better” we use a lot less of it… thus negating many of the advances in technology… but bringing in the project with a healthier profit.

In a way, we were safer with lesser materials and less knowledge.. because everything was overengineered due to the unknown risk.

Now that it is possible to calculate that risk.. there is a lot of pressure to cut costs… so you end up with projects that are safe within a reasonable margin of error….

Engineers are serious about making sure to the best of their ability that construction companies stay within that margin or error…

but you can’t extrapolate the safety of a current project engineered and built by current standards using a project built and engineered under a totally different set of standards…

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[villagegreen]

JOB – So you’re worried about the tunnel thru Beacon/Bacon Hill as well? No riding the light-rail for you?

Downtown is not built on fill and a deep bore tunnel under 6th Ave would be extremely safe. It would seem your chances of encountering a sudden demise are much greater each time you use the current viaduct (or cross California Ave at a cross-walk for that matter).

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[inactive]

There is also a bored Third Avenue bus tunnel under downtown. That SHOULD have been light railed, but oops, somebody muffed that up royally back in the day. That was a fun bit of Seattle debacle history. As they say, anyhoooo…

There are two tunnels being tabled in these new rounds of developments which are DIFFERENT than what Seattle voters rejected as then costed and presented to them a couple of years ago, was it?

The 6th Ave is a two (maybe three) tunnel bore and the 1st Ave tunnel is a much cheaper, narrower bore.

Here’s a link to an accurate article, from what I’ve been able to determine, from Dec. 31.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008575577_viaduct31m.html

This REALLY is getting momentum…I think in spite of the costs.

For me, it’s been somewhat reassuring to note that the discussion the planners are having is also about tweaking access to downtown on the 1st Ave proposal. And, I THINK that applies to temporary route scenarios, as well as permanent.

But, I also think that is what they are furiously working on. Gregoire called a deadline of Jan 12, but let’s hope that comes and goes till the hard-working peeps on this get it all together.

But, I REALLY wish we had a more extensive Ferry District already in place. Or, private companies would step it up and carpe the dang diem. If folks would just envision what Vancouver, BC has already successfully done and use that as our model to incorporate into capacity discussions, I think it would really be revolutionary as WELL as pragmatic.

Check these links out:

http://www.theaquabus.com/visitors.htm

http://www.granvilleislandferries.bc.ca/

http://www.translink.bc.ca/Transportation_Services/SeaBus/

http://www.hellobc.com/en-CA/TransportationMaps/TransportationModes/FerryTravel/Vancouver.htm

But, what do I know? Not so much. I could be mistaken…I’ve just been trying to get up to some level of being better informed since they announced the two crappy choices in Dec. It’s like trying to wrassle an octopus just to grasp it all. I know I haven’t.

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[JoB]

You know Captain Dave.. you shouldn’t get a curious woman interested…

i started following links from your website.. i think maybe not the one you directed me to but the one i found by putting your organization in google.. to see who was backing this move…

this is what i found from the cascadia group…

http://www.cascadiaprospectus.org/2009/01/commissions_report_to_urge_tra.php

It seems that this group thinks the way to fund public infrastructure is to go back to a toll system.

so who likes the idea of a bored tunnel and direct access from West Seattle to I-90 with a toll system to pay for it?

and who likes that being the only alternative to getting through and around town other than I-5?

the best investigative advice i ever got was to follow the money… and the further i follow it the shakier this citizen initiative seems.

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[JoB]

villagegreen…

i didn’t say the tunnel wouldn’t be safe..

i said that using a tunnel engineered using differing standards from the one proposed to illustrate safety was not good science…

Nor is using the city planning docs on the sea wall good science..

something tells me that there is good science out there… and we don’t need to rely on century old information…

so why are we being given such dated information in an aw shucks manner?

David Peprich, the founder of this organization is a designer and engineer. I suspect good information is available and he knows both how to interpret it and how to relay it… so i am sure that Captain Dave has access to current information.

Using century old information is just one way to play on our emotions.. to make this citizen initiative look like it actually comes from citizens..

not from a bunch of businesspeople with a financial investment in the outcome.

go through the links on their website… all that stuff on the right hand side is pretty interesting reading..

http://blog.seattletube.org/?cat=15

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[JoB]

westseattledood…

yes,, i think you are right.. this is like trying to wrestle an octopus… too much ink in the way to see what i really happening…

someone is spending a significant amount of money to publicize this option.. and from the amount of recent news coverage there is an advertising or marketing firm involved…

does this sound to you like the kind of financial investment a few good joes with tools in the back of their pickups trying to get from West Seattle to the other side of town would make?

somehow, i don’t buy it.

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[JoB]

What we were linked to by Captain Dave…

http://www.seattletube.org/

the job opportunity these “concerned citizens” posted…

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/wrg/962140832.html

Where i started following links… and where i think you should too if you want to be educated about this…

http://blog.seattletube.org/

now in all fairness,

i think CaptainDave did mention this blog somewhere in either a convestation here on the forum or on the Home page… when i mentioned my Geotech daughter.. but i haven’t found his link to that blog…

If you follow those links like i did, you begin to wonder why Captain Dave chose to link us to a website that is little more than a marketing tool…

I am just saying that if we are going to have this conversation, we should look a little deeper to find out who stands to benefit… and how we will ultimately pay for this…

Thanks WestSeattleDood for making me curious enough to dig a little deeper….

this is definately not your average little neighborhood blog:)

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[wingme]

wow JoB you da wo-man! You certainly know how and where to go after it. I’m a fan…really!

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[Bingley]

These ideas are coming from concerned citizens who are donating a lot of their time to this – not paying some firm to do it for them. If you check out the plan proposed by Seattle Tube – it links you to at least one firm involved that is donating its time and office space for public meetings. A lot of this is done word of mouth – the media involves itself in things that are interesting to their audience, and this is a hot topic.

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[villagegreen]

I don’t give a crap if this idea is coming from concerned citizens or companies standing to profit from it. Someone is going to profit from any option that is ultimately selected. That’s how Capitalism works – nothing major gets done in this country unless someone stands to make money. Sometimes that sucks, but that’s the way it is.

The only thing I care about is whether the tunnel will keep the current capacity and how it will affect people trying to get downtown from WS. Personally, since I don’t work downtown, I’m much more interested in how easily I’ll be able to get to Ballard or Green Lake. This seems like the best solution I’ve heard. Obviously, we’ll need to know exactly how it will be paid for, but it doesn’t seem to be that much more expensive than the other (non)options.

Guess I just don’t understand all the dissmisive comments right off the bat. More answers need to be provided, but that goes for any solution as far as I’m concerned. I’m more interested in hearing what they have to say rather than trying to turn this post into some intellectual debunking exercise.

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[Anonymous]

CaptainDave openly posted his blog link several days ago while trying to introduce this idea to us. He didn’t get very far because he was immediately argued with, accused of having all sorts of nefarious motives, and told he didn’t know what he was talking about. All around nice reception for a new poster.

****I have been promoting a bored tunnel for two years. Hence the web site and graphics are two years old. I don’t have a lot of money to hire web designers to change it as plans are upgraded. However, you can see current info on our blog which is linked on the home page (or just go to http://blog.seattletube.org****

I don’t understand why it’s so difficult to simply listen and consider taking him at face value. At least he’s attempting to contribute, unlike some of us sitting here passing judgment.

He also never claimed to have all the answers or all the figures. He is proposing this idea be evaluated to produce answers. And someone is always going to benefit with every plan. If you want to throw away ideas on that basis, might as well leave America.

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[JoB]

JT….. I have an issue with people who present an alternative plan without giving you all of the information you need to make a decision…

in fact, to access the real information even on the blog site.. “strategic initiatives” .. you need an access code… it’s there on a need to know basis.. and john Q apparently doesn’t have a need to know.

bingley…… there is a big difference between businesses and business organizations donating time and space to a project and characterizing those businesses and business organizations as just concerned citizens…

and it is evasive at best not to name those businesses when asked directly where the money for this promotion is coming from.

as for this being a big story.. someone did a remarkable job of promoting it starting the last week of december.. when all those news stories that are linked appeared.

and as intended.. that buzz seems to have created a postponment that gives the organization more time for an option that even Captain Dave admits needs a more thorough review.. pushing the entire project out how much longer?

having tried to attract media attention to public service events and issues myself, i can attest to the fact that it takes a lot more than a couple of phone calls by volunteers to get that kind of attention.. it takes professional marketing. word of mouth takes a little longer to create that kind of attention in that many sources that fast…

I have no doubt we will find that the expertise that created the news buzz was either donated or paid for as a donation from one of those listed businesses…

but that does put a different spin on this grass roots citizen thing that is being promoted here…

villagegreen…. do you really want this option enough to pay for it every time you use it?

Because in the first line of Captain Dave’s first post you will find “Citizens for Seattle Tube and Cascadia plan”

and you should really follow the link to them i provided above… that prospectus is crucial to understanding the push for this plan…

if you don’t think making this a toll option is in your best interests… you might not be so hot for this plan…

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[JoB]

why talk about the seawall and insist that it be included when talking about cost?

by following the links from the website… http://blog.seattletube.org/

i easily accessed this WSDOT information…

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/viaductSeawall.htm

which makes it clear that regardless of whether we do work on the viaduct or we choose a bored tunnel option on the east side of downtown.. the seawall problem isn’t going to solve itself…

so much for the reassuring info from the century old city plans that Captain Dave referred to when the subject came up…

in fact, one thing that isn’t mentioned in that link is that the process of dismantling the viaduct is likely to create enough trauma to further destabilize the seawall… we’re back to that bowl full of jelly thing.. and dropping the viaduct is likely to make it shake shake shake…

Maybe that isn’t something we should just ignore…

and we haven’t even mentioned the possible seismic impact of the boring process on the hill directly above that seawall….

geotechnical engineering much more than simple plumbing…

and we ignore it in an earthquake zone at our peril..

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[TD West Seattle]

JoB (and others concerned):

I am one of the very few people currently involved with the Seattle Tube project and can tell you for certain that your concerns about where the initiative is coming from, its ability to generate press coverage, etc., while certainly understandable, are completely unfounded. We have been working for weeks on this simply because we’re not convinced of the two ‘short list’ alternatives’ success and decided we should do whatever we could to promote a better option. We have not received a dime for our time, nor has anyone else for theirs. As for PR, Dave set up the blog himself and you can credit the graphics to yours truly (glad to see they were noticed). We got media coverage by emailing various news groups with an alternative solution to a very hot topic, and they were interested.

I believe much of the confusion about the idea comes from the fact that our study is unfunded. We don’t have the financial resources to self-fund a full study of all the issues involved (traffic, roadway interchanges, etc.), nor to hire a PR firm to assist in getting the public’s attention, and as a result we have sought the input of Cascadia and others with experience in tunnel boring technology in order to assess the idea’s viability. Their input has been minimal but helpful, and to date their main comment on it is that it should be studied to the level that the other major options were studied. That is our primary goal – to get the governor, mayor, and others to consider an alternative that doesn’t doom us to a decade of downtown gridlock while we turn the viaduct into a lower-capacity bottleneck.

More on Cascadia if you’re still concerned: The only reason this idea is being linked to any of Cascadia’s earlier work in terms of the public forum is that we’re trying to gain support for further study of a tunnel, and the governor recently commented about Cascadia’s earlier ideas for bored tunnels being the preferred alternative if financially feasible. The Seattle Tube is a different way of looking at the tunnel, boring through more predictable subsurface conditions. Our open meeting on Friday will therefore allow time for Cascadia to talk about bored tunnel technology, financial implications as they see them, etc., and will also include a discussion of the Seattle Tube proposal in its current form. If you don’t like tolls and you feel that is what Cascadia will propose, show up and tell them you don’t like it. We expect that our tube idea will be modified by attendees’ input (in fact we hope so) so that when we meet with Ron Judd, the governor’s top aid for the viaduct issue, on the 19th we have a plan that has greater public support.

Let me repeat: no one is making any money off of this, in fact quite the opposite! We are looking for input ASAP. Open forums are being held all week this week at Grace Architects’ office at 1927 Post Alley in the Market, and a larger forum is scheduled for this Friday at Top of the Market (meet at the pig at 7PM). If you’re a West Seattlite like me and are upset with the limited options being seriously considered at this time for a viaduct replacement please show up or give Grace a call at 206.788.4603.

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