A good day to reflect on gun violence

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  • #759387

    DBP
    Member

    Yet another BAD day for Seattle, but another GOOD day to consider how easy it is for people to get guns, and how we can change that.

    It’s STOOPIDLY easy to get guns in this country, people.

    How many more of our fellow citizens have to die before we figure this one out?

    #759388

    DBP
    Member

    Seems like I can’t even keep up with all the gun violence in this town lately . . . And it’s not even summer yet.

    Another Times story from today:

        “Man held in shooting ‘sorry’ bystander hurt near Folklife”

    http://tinyurl.com/2-easy-2-get-guns

    Sure. I bet he’s reeeeeeal sorry.

    Note that the 19-year-old scumbucket who did this year’s Folklife bystander shooting* was a known gang-banger, with a felony rap sheet dating back five years.

    No way he should’ve been within miles of a gun. So where’d he get it?

    Brother-in-law?

    Gun show?

    Private trader?

    If we had a gun registry, we’d now. Since we don’t have one, we might never know. But nobody is even following that angle anyway. I read through the entire Times article looking for some reference to where the scum got his gun.

    ¡Nada!

    ****************************************************************************************

    *One more year, and they’ll have to make this an official Folklife event.

    #759389

    JanS
    Participant

    and then there was today….this gentleman, who is no longer with us, who killed 4 people and injured two more, had multiple guns, as is his second amendment right. Maybe it’s time to amend the amendment. Yeah, yeah, I know the arguments, so spare me. Would love to know if this person, who now, as of a minute ago, is said to still be alive, had these guns legally. Reports are that he was a “strange” guy, who had been in the cafe a few times, had gotten into a verbal altercation with someone there at some point…and maybe was a little “off”..is this who the second amendment is protecting/allowing to have as many guns as he wants? I don’t know the answers..a sad day indeed for this city..

    #759390

    clark5080
    Participant

    You also need to look the laws for gun possession for those 18 and under. If a Juvenal is found in possession of an illegal gun (even if he hasn’t fired it) he only gets it taken away no real penalty. If I do that it is major time for me. Work on getting the guns out of the hands or the criminals

    #759391

    yesac1234
    Member

    Just to clarify gun shows require a W.A.C. (Washington arms collector) card to purchase a gun. To get a card you have to have a background check. Also the reason a registry doesn’t work is because the guns don’t come from legal sources for most crimes. They are usually stolen or imported very rarely is a legal gun owner ever commit a gun related crime. although I believe it should not be any harder to buy a firearm. I do believe there should be a gun safety course that has to be taken before you can purchase a firearm that is reasonable because to get a hunting license you have to take a hunter safety class why not for guns. In my opinion guns are a valuable asset for self preservation. I will always carry for that reason because given the choice me or them I’m choosing me.

    #759392

    kootchman
    Member

    The “banger” movement was centralized around drug turf. As was the the prohibition wars around hootch distribution. The presence of known territory interlopers was a death sentence. Yes, organized crime expanded that level of violence to protect, extortion, numbers, prostitution and a whole code of gang laws. At the heart of it is territory and gangs. Then we had a cultural movement extolling the virtues of “gangsta’ style. Music, sports icons, and the proverbial wannabes, who find an upgraded status with violence emulation at the core. School is too hard. It’s not the guns. I have a right here beside me, in a drawer, a Desert Eagle. It’s just a hunk of metal. It will remain a hunk of metal. Inanimate and harmless, until or unless I need to put human intent and interface to the object. where did he get it? Gang gun trafficking? That would be my guess. Colors are the gang version of do not trespass. You are obsessed with registration… did it stop the shooting? Nope. I don’t care what assembly plant the drunk driver’s car was made in or the dealer he bought it from…. neither one was a participant in the drinking and driving. A simple set of schematics and a few machine tools and you have a gun. My .408 barrel for CheyTac rounds, a converted M-14 stock, was made in a machine shop in NC. The blueprints for every gun ever made are easy to get. Hell, I can get prints for an M2 .50 caliber online.

    http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/weapons/machine-guns/

    There were 3200 gun deaths in the USA in 2009. Of those, 1/2 were suicides. in 2012, so far, 16 gun deaths of police officers, cops on average kill 230 citizens per year. However, drunk drivers kill over 12,000 per year… and everyone of those vehicles had a VIN number, traceable to the plant that made it, the workers tha assembled it, every dealer and previous owner…. they were all part of national registry…. didn’t prevent a single one did it?

    #759393

    Cindertang
    Participant

    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

    The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunken guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

    There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for an [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed.

    People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

    Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

    People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force, watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

    The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable. When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation… and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

    #759394

    kootchman
    Member

    Indeed.. that 112 lb NVA with an AK was one lethal little sob…

    #759395

    Jeff
    Participant

    DBP, I believe you mean well, but you really need to know that “ballistic profiling” is CSI nonsense. I change the “ballistic profile” of my gun every time I clean it or change ammunition brands.

    #759396

    TanDL
    Participant

    “Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.”

    Maybe through the limited lens of your own perception, but I see those thoughts as sad and more of a statement about the writer than on humanity at large. If you want me to do something for you, you have to convince me with either reason or force? What about all the things people in this community do for each other, every day? Am I convinced by either reason or force to buy a plant for Furry Faces, donate to the White Cener Food Bank, or attend an upcoming benefit for a family dealing with cancer? No! I’m convinced by love of animals, by caring for my neighbors, by compassion, by the concern I have for my fellow human beings and lesser creatures on this earth. I’m not reasoning these situations out or dealing with them by force.

    My take on life is that we can choose to live by our higher thoughts, carings and aspirations, and refuse to live with paranoia, fear that someone will steal something from us or constant distrust of our neighbors. In the end, you will lose your life and things anyway, no matter how many guns you carry. In the end it won’t matter how many rounds of ammo you have stashed in your house or how many guns you keep under your pillow at night. You are going to die – we all are. And you can’t take your things with you.

    So, to me it makes better sense, with our limited time on this earth, to view the world though the lens of love, caring and compassion as much as possible. Of course evil exists and we have to stand up to it when we’re confronted by it and we also have to be mindful of who is around us when we go out. But to see evil in every corner and be so afraid of it coming at you every time you step out the door that you have to carry a gun, is a sad and fearful way to view the world.

    #759397

    miws
    Participant

    Well put, TanDL….

    Mike

    #759398

    dbsea
    Member

    More guns do equal more people killed by guns. And guns don’t kill people. People with guns kill people, more than they do without guns.

    Is society better off with all the guns in public hands? We better be because the price is pretty high. And maybe we are but I don’t think that can be demonstrated.

    However, I do want to be able to own a gun for my families’ protection (even though there are risks involved). But I don’t trust most other folks to safely have guns, especially seeing how well many of them handle their cars. Hypocritical? probably, but I know myself. I don’t know you, and you with a gun frightens me.

    #759399

    2 Much Whine
    Participant

    All those folks that think they need to carry a weapon in their car, under their pillow or into a park to thwart the bad guys – where were you yesterday? With all the concealed weapons permits out there why was nobody able to stop that guy? Despite intentions to be prepared when a bad guy does something the bad guys will always have the upper hand because they have the element of surprise. It just seems so silly to me to think that whack jobs with guns would ever be intimidated by a law-abiding citizen with a gun – they’re not thinking like most of us do.

    #759400

    sarelly
    Member

    Agree that drug legalization would cut down on gun-related violence. My mother lives in Mexico where, she tells me, it is not unusual to find a severed head in the dumpster due to drug trade and the police & government corruption that allows it to continue. You probably saw the headlines identifying Wells Fargo bank as a major launderer of drug money – because there is so much money involved is probably the main reason drugs remain illegal. When the money is taken out of the equation, so is the violence. Nobody is going to become an addict if drugs are cheap. People who want to use will do so anyway.

    As for keeping guns out of the hands of nutters…I don’t know how that would work. Judging by the number of obnoxious road-ragers on our highways, I’d say far too many people suffer from a short fuse. There should be a waiting period and background check – as mentioned above about Chicago, 30 days doesn’t seem unreasonable. Registering and tracking ownership seems like a good idea.

    Why do “law-abiding” people who own guns feel they need them? Unless you are hunting, what do you want with a gun? Is owning or carrying a gun an effective method of self-defense?

    #759401

    EdSane
    Participant

    @2 Much Whine

    Having a concealed pistol license doesn’t make you a vigilante or thrill seeker. Personally when I learned that the police were actively looking for a gunman in my area. I took my (lawful) firearm with me as I headed out to a friends bbq. A firearm is for self-defense. The police are paid to go after the criminals. That shouldn’t detract from my right to defend myself.

    #759402

    JanS
    Participant

    so, Ed…a question here…when you go out carrying…do you strap on a holster? do you keep your gun in a pocket? Is it locked, or always ready to fire? How does that work? I’m a 65 yo disabled woman..walk with a cane. So…would I be expected to also strap on a holster? What about keeping the gun in my shoulder bag (which doesn’t always go with me anyway)…and..how does fumbling to get to my gun while I’m being thumped by someone, self protect me? I’m doomed before I ever get my hands on the damned thing, and then will probably have it taken away from me, and possibly used against me (or someone else – another gun in the hands of bad guys), after the stronger assailant pushed weaker me down.

    Inquiring minds want to know..

    #759403

    kootchman
    Member

    Very true TanDL…. but I am going to let fate, genetics, arbitrate that departure date. 2MW…people carry for personal protection, not to guard the public at large. The bad guys do not “always” have the upper hand… they have surprise on their side. Carrying is one side of the equation. It takes practice and training.to be a capable defensive shooter. Thousands of rounds and hours of practice on the gun range. Target practice is not defensive or combat shooting… Bad guys generally are not that good. My personal feeling.. if you do decide to carry … be very very prepared to use it, and be prepared to justify having used it. Going to Ed’s gun shop on Monday and having a 9mm on Friday will not surround you with a magic bubble of invincibility. Fact, until you wear out your first barrel … you aren’t street ready.

    DBP…. please. You can custom order on the street whatever you are willing to pay for, in whatever caliber you want. I am still willing to accept some casualties in lieu of registering.

    #759404

    casaboba
    Member
    #759405

    kootchman
    Member

    well Jan, it depends. If I am wearing a tan jacket, it’s a cross draw. teflon lined internal pocket with a spring steel tension bar sewn on the liner, fastened at the botten with a snap on the belt. (left side won’t be flapping in the breeze) Try a few styles that you feel comfortable with. Your local gun store will help you. Is it locked? Use a double action revolver. The first shot is the one that counts. Shoulder bag is probably the worst way to carry. But in all seriousness…. creeps rely on quick access and quick getaway. Use a pin activated screecher… they work. They will run away so fast their heels will be in their back pockets….. about $10

    #759406

    EdSane
    Participant

    @JanS

    Personally I am a able bodied male in my 20s. An in-band waist holster is sufficient. I conceal carry my weapon 1-3x a year. Generally depending on the area I’m visiting or in this case a known threat. As to whether the firearm is ‘locked’ or the safety is on. Depends on the model/type of gun. My firearm is to protect myself, my friends and family. Professionally I work in the security industry and am well versed in the lawful application of force.

    You have to make the choice for yourself whether you want to carry or not. I fully support your freedom to make that choice.

    #759407

    JanS
    Participant

    casaboba…my cane…lol..I think I’d more lean to a cane with a hidden flask :D

    #759408

    365Stairs
    Participant

    You can’t defend what you don’t see coming.

    You can’t possibly live on such high alert at all times to defend yourself against random & tragic acts done by evil people.

    I would love to believe that not seeing this coming, in some small measure, ensured the people to lost their lives to these evils didn’t die in fear…like we now live today with a little more fear…

    #759409

    test517
    Member

    I have some questions. With this dramatic spike in gun violence, is there a corresponding large spike in the amount of guns in Seattle? Are there more guns here this year than last? How have the post ‘North Hollywood shoot out’ laws in CA changed gun violence there?

    I am not asking these question to advocate one way or another. I know that this is going to stir the pot a little, so let first say that I am a gun owner, but I am not against having a gun registry.

    I completely agree with dbsea comments, while I trust myself, it is everyone else that worries me, such as my neighbor who shot himself in the leg while reportedly cleaning his gun. While I have a CC license, I have never carry personally (although I have been armed professionally in the past). From my perspective, there is not many things that I feel are worth getting into a gun fight over, having a gun does not make me feel safe, using my head and being aware does.

    This is not true of everyone. My brother-in-law was held hostage at gun point while he was in college by a former roommate and ever since he carries everywhere he goes. Right or wrong, for him, having a firearm allows him to feel safe again, something that he feels was taken from him all those years ago. I don’t agree with him, but it is what he feels he needs to do. He is obviously not alone in feeling this way.

    I asked the questions above to try to add some data to the conversation, I will be doing some research tonight to see if I can find some data to add to this thread (hopefully raw data). I personally believe having this data is a prereq to having any kind of meaningful discussion.

    Cheers

    #759410

    JanS
    Participant

    with all the illegal guns out there amongst the less than savory citizenry…how can we know exactly how many guns, more or less, are out there in this city…therein lies the problem..

    #759411

    casaboba
    Member

    Re.: Post # 46…

    Jan, I thought of that, but then I thought best for Jan to carry two hip-flasks (to protect those kidneys from stray bullets) then one cane-flask.

    One can’t be too careful…… ;-)

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