49 Replies to "WEST SEATTLE BRIDGE CLOSURE: Change in plan for tube-tunnel proponent's next presentation"

• Sillygoose June 23, 2020 (9:39 am)

  This shouldn’t even  been considered stay on task with fixing this bridge not starting an entire new project with no money and taxed out citizens.  This idea needs to be squashed after all he is retired!!!

  • Eise June 23, 2020 (10:02 am)

    Agreed

  • DRC June 23, 2020 (10:38 am)

          You are so right! Add another 5 to 10 years to this project with this brain wave

  • Anne June 23, 2020 (10:40 am)

    What does his being retired have to do with anything? Do you think somehow that makes his experience as an engineer irrelevant? This has to be the silliest comment I’ve seen in a long time.

    • Conjunction Junction June 23, 2020 (11:14 am)

      Actually, retired does make a difference, if you are not keeping up on industry and environmental standards. I’m not saying this is the case with Prof. Ortblad, as he has very likely been watching advances. But if my husband had stopped working as a PE 20 years ago, he’d understand the physics, but he wouldn’t know about all the incredible advances made since and the environmental sensitivity.

      • Anne June 23, 2020 (1:30 pm)

        Conjunction-all I’m saying is please don’t dismiss retired folks out of hand -just because they’re retired. Many have kept up with advances -perhaps because they  have the time to  do so.  If  Mr. Ortlblads idea  has no merit- I’m sure it will be obvious  fairly quickly. 

      • Thomas Berry June 23, 2020 (6:19 pm)

        Re: environmental regulations. Not a bad point. Excavating a tunnel will require disturbing many layers of pollution from the Duwamish’s past — that alone could be deal breaker. 

    • Also John June 23, 2020 (11:23 am)

      Anne…. my jaw dropped when I saw the same comment.  I guess his 40 years of experience on large infrastructure projects makes him useless?…      Being retired doesn’t mean his knowledge is outdated.   I’m a retired PE civil engineer.  All options need to be looked at.   This is a major project.  This will take time.  Yes it’s an inconvenience, but lets do it right.

      • Will June 23, 2020 (12:40 pm)

        Yeah the attacks on the WSB are getting really bad. 

        • Alki resident June 23, 2020 (9:57 pm)

          I’m not seeing attacks. I’m seeing conversation. Let people have their opinions. 

      • MarkM July 12, 2020 (2:43 pm)

        sounds like we have a lot of super ageism discrimination here. That tunnel is not the one Bertha built silly people it is actually our best and least costly option to replace a way over the Duwamish or we keep making the same bumbling mistakes over and over with that exotic designed bridge that only will end up lasting half its life expectancy. if we repair we get 10 years if that. I will bet all day long that it won’t give us 10 years even after repairs.We have perfect examples of this type of immersed tunnel in Vancouver BC and it works wonderfully and is earthquake proof as well so another bonus. Also it will get the job done sooner than later. I’m ok with no bridge but how many of you can endure 5 years with no bridge post Covid that is? Look up Immersed tunnels on UTUBE you can watch as they are installed all over the world so this is not some exotic thing that is unproven. Go watch people and be educated please.

  • Smittytheclown June 23, 2020 (11:28 am)

    Warren Buffet is 90.

  • Exodus June 23, 2020 (3:52 pm)

    I want to see all proposals, and building a tunnel under a shallow waterway makes a lot of sense. Keep all options open.

• TunnelNow June 23, 2020 (9:41 am)

  Cheers to Mr. Ortblad who seems to prioritize science/engineering and common sense over SDOT’s bureaucratic, snail’s pace approach that took this project from a two year fix to a 10 year…what? After months of this there is still no direction. In the meantime we sit in traffic for an extra hour every day, our small businesses, already hit by the pandemic continue to suffer and we watch our neighbors and friends leave West Seattle. For those of you cheering this last development you’re also cheering the nail in the coffin for small businesses and the incredible quality of life we enjoy in our beautiful West Seattle. Get your act together, SDOT. We need real leadership like Mr. Ortblad’s led by a real engineer not a gaggle of bureaucrats and their infuriatingly laxed talking head. 

• David June 23, 2020 (10:37 am)

  As I understand it a “fix” might last 10 years and take 2 years to implement. A unique tunnel approach could last much longer. An example is the chunnel between England and France. It is 31 miles long and took 6 years to build. We are only in need of a few hundred feet of tunnel under the river – even by Seattle standards this should be quite doable.

  • Jet City Girl June 23, 2020 (10:34 pm)

    Well Noted!

• Marc Milrod June 23, 2020 (11:01 am)

  A tunnel is the best solution, though I think that 2 lanes for reversable use including cargo fromTerminal 5 would be ideal. Pretending the short term pain is more sensible than a long term solution is extremely short-sightes… even if for some of us this represents a good portion of our remaining life span. We need to also understand the lifespan of the lower draw bridge, and improve access from the West Seattle Bridge to the rest of the road system… being on grade east of the Duwamish allows people to go South from Eastbound, for example. This flexibility would have served us, given ANY other access point across the Duwamish.

• West Seattle Hipster June 23, 2020 (11:23 am)

  Although I highly doubt a tunnel will be built (makes too much sense), kudos to Ortblad for demonstrating passion and dedication to his city.  I wish our paid leaders had his vision.

• Conjunction Junction June 23, 2020 (11:24 am)

  Science takes time.  Taxpayer money is precious.  Half of WS is crying that the process is taking too long, and then when something is decided on, the other half will protest that the decision was made too fast, or expensive, or with not enough input.  Or maybe it will be the same half, because the their idea was not chosen.  Frankly, Ortblad is one of the few people that can do any commenting about what the solution could be, but even he may not be right.  Maybe the solution looks great, until there is a detail that is unsolvable, too expensive, or inequitable.  Remember that the current bridge was supposed to last a long time, and was put up quickly (by public project standards) and time has given us more information about this type of structure. Science takes time.

• Rob June 23, 2020 (12:11 pm)

  This kind of cut and cover or sectional drop to form this is actually a pretty slick idea. My only question is how would a below grade portal get linked back up to the fauntleroy entrance up on top of the hill? Seems like that grade would be rather steep? 

• VBD June 23, 2020 (12:46 pm)

  I would like to see the proposal for getting the roads low enough to enter the tunnel.  Highways need to have a grade less than 6% and transit less than 3%.   So to go from the current raised viaduct to 70 feet underwater will mean a drop of more than 100 feet.  So the highway must begin dropping at least 1700′ before the tunnel for cars, and over 3400′ for rail.  On both sides of the tunnel.  That would mean well over a mile of road needs to be built.  Plus there isn’t just one waterway, there is two, with Harbor Island in the middle.  Unless I’m missing something, this does NOT sound cheaper than just leaving everything else as is, and rebuilding the span.

• Jort June 23, 2020 (2:01 pm)

  Everybody wants a Magical Unicorn Pony Plan that’ll fix everything for us (Tunnel! Gondola! Adaptive traffic signaling! Officers controlling traffic!) but none of those will actually “fix” our traffic situation because it is literally unfixable. The only cities that have decreased commute and transportation time have done it through robust public transportation and cycling. No city has ever in human history “solved” traffic congestion by building more roads. Seattle will not be the first. The technologies and methods for the efficient, scalable and sustainable transportation of humans through cities big and small has been demonstrated successfully thousands of times all around the world. We do not need to re-invent the wheel, we just have to finally wake up and realize that our all-in bet on the personal automobile has reached its maximum capacity limitations. Do what works and what’s proven and force car driver behavior changes through transit and cycling prioritization. 

• Sillygoose June 23, 2020 (2:10 pm)

  Let’s not forget all of the boat traffic!!! This is a pipe dream lets move on to the fact we need this bridge fixed 3 months ago.

• Joe Z June 23, 2020 (2:21 pm)

  The Q/A says that a half-mile of new highway ramp would be required to connect the tunnel to the existing infrastructure. As a neighbor of this area, I am strongly opposed to the creation of any new highways. We do not need any more 20th century highway ramps in Seattle. Either use the existing highway ramps which are in good condition or tear down the highways entirely and replace them with surface streets.

  Additionally, climate models predict 5 ft of sea level rise in Puget Sound by 2070 and I would like to know how building a new underground car highway is consistent with the city of Seattle’s efforts to mitigate climate change. As well as how the tunnel entrances will be designed to accomodate sea level rise over the 100+ year lifespan of a new tunnel. 

• ScubaFrog June 23, 2020 (3:07 pm)

  A “fix” on the bridge may only rend it usable for a lane each way.  Let’s wait until we have all of the information on both proposals, and why are we attacking retired people?  Ageism is bigotry.

• Vistagirl June 23, 2020 (3:25 pm)

  Pretty please, no tunnel! We lost one gorgeous view with the viaduct tunnel. I don’t want to lose another  with a WS tunnel. 

  • Matt P June 23, 2020 (5:57 pm)

    But we also lost an eyesore and gained a beautiful usable waterfront.

• J June 23, 2020 (3:50 pm)

  I don’t know why I finally feel compelled to respond but here it is.I lived in West Seattle for 5 years until March and was relocated for work to Denver. It is amazing to me to see a city, actually a region, so well developed for what people like to call our ‘alternative transportation methods’.I rode my bike everyday to work rain snow and shine when I lived there, and the fact that so many people drive blows my mind. Even the people I knew first-hand living there that drove to the water taxi and took up parking along that street blew my mind. They refused to ride the bus for whatever reason and the free shuttle was either too slow or too smelly. I truly empathize with the situation because I love West Seattle and I love living there and I never wanted to leave. I tend to side with Jort in his comments and he typically gets handily refuted by people saying that biking is impossible. Honestly if you would see the level of happiness and friendliness in the place that I’m living now, because people are out and about enjoying their streets, you would change your tune after a week. That’s why I’m commenting. I have never seen a greater juxtaposition in disposition than between living in Seattle and living here.Rad power bikes for God’s sake is in your city and has made accessibility a moot point unless you’re unfortunate enough to be commuting across two bodies of water. I have friends like that and I understand. But seriously if you’re talking a few miles and you’re going to complain about hills, get an e-bike. If you’re going to say that only rich people can afford e-bikes, do your research. They even offer payment plans if you really need to.To think positively again, the most rewarding thing that’s happened during covod is the amount of people that I associated with in Seattle asking me for referral links to their bike program. That means that people are seeing the situation and seeing this pandemic as an opportunity to change the way that they think and every single one of them has been extremely satisfied with their decision of a bike. Even with the rain!And for context: I do have a 1-year-old child and we pedal him around our city everyday……for anyone that thinks that getting kids to daycare is impossible by bike.In all my time there I wish the infrastructure had been better for biking because it scared the living crap out of me on a few occasions, including the times I was hit and the time my wife was doored on Alki.I really hope that West Seattle blog gets back to the positive community messages in the forum because I agree with the above commenter that the negativity has overwhelmed the folks doing good ever since this pandemic took over our lives. Stay strong Seattle and I hope you make the right decisions. Bridge, tunnel, whatever. I truly hope that you aren’t crushed by this sucker punch that you received in 2020 because I love your neighborhoods and I love the businesses I visited while I was there. Much love.PS West Seattle blog is one of the greatest community resources I’ve ever seen in my life and in the 12 cities that I’ve lived in. You do amazing work.

  • Jort June 23, 2020 (4:30 pm)

    Biking will easily and clearly be the fastest way to get downtown from West Seattle, and there will be no competition on this. I can understand why people might be hesitant to bike, though, given how criminally reckless drivers routinely endanger cyclists with their aggressive behaviors. This is not an impossible problem to fix, and the city can encourage it by making it safer for cyclists with infrastructure improvements and right-of-way prioritization. This takes political courage, but it is an actual possibility. There is no actual possibility of mitigating the car traffic. That’s a joke of a dream and it will not happen, period, end of story, no debate.     \

  • Bill June 23, 2020 (7:35 pm)

    Ok J, so to be clear: We’re judging former fellow-residents for not biking, and then judging the commenters for judging. You can take the man out of Seattle…

  • NDT June 23, 2020 (10:51 pm)

    Denver is nearly flat — it isn’t in the Rockies, just looks at them from the Great Plains. So biking is inherently easier there than it is in Seattle.

  • ScubaFrog June 24, 2020 (12:46 am)

    Right on J!

  • mark47n June 25, 2020 (4:45 am)

    I grew up in Denver and moved out here because the woman I loved lived out here with her daughters. I’ve been trying to get back to CO ever since…with her (kids are grown!). Denver saw the writing on the wall decades ago and started planning for increased transportation needs. It started putting in light rail, had the 16th street Mall and free shuttle buses, which were always packed during the work day and ruthlessly defended it ROWs along 25 which has now paid off by having an extensive rails system connecting moats of the region to the north and south.When you have regional and state governing bodies that don’t feel the need to have committees to oversees the other committees and then the advisory committees an the need to have advisory votes… things actually happened.While I don’t want to live in Denver again I want to get back to CO. It’ll happen.

• Leigh June 23, 2020 (5:08 pm)

  I’m surprised at the number of people commenting who are so against the tunnel idea without having listened to what Mr. Ortblad has to say given his experience and knowledge. I watched his first presentation and he makes many good points for the tunnel and why the bridge may not be the best option. I get it – traffic is bad and we’re sick of it and just want things to be “fixed” already. But spending years on a bandaid fix that may only get us 10 more years before we’re out of a bridge for another few years… let’s think carefully if that’s really the best solution. How many times have we all wondered why we don’t have a better light rail system? The majority voted against funding something that wouldn’t get built for many years so we kept extending the pain. Maybe if we bit the bullet earlier we’d already have light rail in West Seattle and wouldn’t be in such a predicament. Again, I urge everyone to listen to what he has to say before jumping to conclusions and pushing for the quickest fix that will leave us crying in pain again shortly down the line.

  • John June 24, 2020 (11:49 am)

    We don’t want the tunnel because it will just be another excuse to Levi a tax against us just like the tollon the 99 tunnel which should be illegal because it’s an interstate. It wouldn’t even be there if the state would have some teeth and bring the hammer down on the contractor who went over budget because they damaged the drill due to their negligence

    • WSB June 24, 2020 (2:44 pm)

      The 99 tunnel is NOT an interstate. It is a state highway.

• Mj June 23, 2020 (6:20 pm)

  Jort – I have not heard anyone requesting added capacity, the impact of losing a major bridge corridor is horrific.  WS businesses are struggling, people who want make a day trip to the mountains are impacted and many people need a vehicle for work. 

  From SDoT the bridge may indeed be fixable and they need to get on with it now.

• Mr. C-vu June 23, 2020 (7:07 pm)

  I see a lot of value in keeping the City on their toes and applaud Mr. Ortblad for his innovative thinking. However, given current temperature and sea level trends much of Harbor Island and the lower Duwamish  will be unusable in 50 to 100 years without New Orleans or Netherlands level engineering.  50 to a 100 years is the expected lifetime of a major infrastructure project.  With sea level rise an at grade tunnel descending from the existing viaduct would have unique vulnerabilities that would need to be carefully considered that a bridge does would not.  I see the tunnel as a bit of a gamble with some unique and unappealing risks. Given the low ground surface elevations in vicinity of Harbor Island a properly designed tunnel would need flood walls at the portals on both ends as king tides could be above the ground surface in a few decades.  And the “fun” thing about sea level rise and our out-of-control warming (our current predicament)  is that it is unlikely to be stopped. The only thing to debate is the timing. A large earthquake (likely in project lifetime) will liquefy some of the artificial fill soils near the tunnel or bridge. Any properly built structure would have to be pile supported its whole length but would still move a lot during a large earthquake ( I say this as someone who worked next to the river and experienced the Nisqually quake first hand). A small displacement of a flood wall joint during a earthquake could lead to catastrophic flooding of the tunnel if loaded by high water. This is the hurricane Katrina failure mode, just replace the wave loading with ground motion.  Surely proper engineering can address some of this risk. As a civil engineer familiar with these sorts of things, and  a would-be  daily user, I would role the dice on a properly repaired or redesigned new bridge over a tunnel personally, but I will say the existing bridge gives me the heebee-jeebees (technical word for “I can’t put a number on it but something don’t look right”). If the tunnel would only be expected to get us through a few decades and could be constructed with proper precautions at far less time and cost than a replacement bridge I might be swayed.

  • ARPigeonPoint June 23, 2020 (8:05 pm)

    The earthquake question was answered in Bob’s original presentation. See BART and the Loma Prieta quake. This isn’t a bore tunnel. 

• 22blades June 23, 2020 (7:17 pm)

  It’s funny to see all the downers. “Crazy idea!” “Waste of money!” Here is someone with a modicum of expertise offering a solution versus the sea of critics with no solutions. Being retired can be a tremendous advantage when coupled with expertise; He’s not constrained by the walls of serving an employer but is able to offer his own voice. Not listening is the beginning of the end. Don’t complain unless you can offer or at least listen to ideas. At least he’s not some old retired guy complaining all the time. Now get off my lawn!!!

  • Zander June 24, 2020 (10:11 am)

    ‘Fixing the Bridge and saying No to the Tunnel’ is a ‘solution’ being offered in this dialogue over and over. 

• Ted June 23, 2020 (11:11 pm)

  I believe that a lot of folks are missing a central point here – fixing the bridge would take two years and only last maybe ten. A blink of the eye for someone who has lived in West Seattle for 18 years – and many of you new WS folks will discover that soon of you stick it out (I suggest you do !)Seattle is in a lot of this transportation crunch specifically because of short sited/ short term solutions. Similar to the beautiful tunnel that now flows under Seattle – traffic going north or south moves much more efficiently. We found a way to pay for it. We will find a way to pay for something new. (And I sure miss the rides I took on the viaduct while wondering if the big one would hit while I was on there)We need to start being comfortable with big thoughts / projects. Think of the revitalization that could take place in the zone where the WS bridge passes thru now if a tunnel was underneath.Finally I know the commute stinks. I’m in it with you – but let’s think a little bigger and for our kids future transit. We can do much more than Band-Aids and bailing wire.

• anonyme June 24, 2020 (6:47 am)

  I think the tunnel option should at least be considered, even if (GASP!) the engineer is over 65 and therefore must be designing with dinosaurs in mind.  Hermione Granger does not work at SDOT; I wish she did.  We need science to guide this process, and SDOT is a bureaucratic mess.  Have at it, Mr. Ortblad.

• Zander June 24, 2020 (9:24 am)

  …why am I not surprised someone viewed this ‘problem with one span of bridge’ as a win/win for Lightrail. You know, like when all those tax dollars dwindled.  Guess what West Seattle. Another Tunnel equals another toll. Fix The Bridge SDOT!  And Open the Lower Bridge to ALL atleast during non-peak hours. It’s just ridiculous!

• WHENITRAINSITPOURS June 24, 2020 (3:41 pm)

  I like the pipe dreams so here’s mine.  Let’s fix/replace the bridge but then build a tunnel that goes north from the tip of the peninsula toward 15th and interbay.  A north/south link west of the City would be interesting to explore.  

• Please June 25, 2020 (4:51 pm)

  Just Fix The Bridge. This is sooooo easy. Fix. The. Bridge. That is the first and best option. Weird experiments are not the order of the day. Lord please deliver me from this backwater dysfunctional city that is incapable to accomplishing anything. 

  • WSB June 25, 2020 (6:14 pm)

    To be clear if you’re late to the party … this is a private citizen’s proposal.

• Josh June 28, 2020 (9:19 pm)

  As an architect, I’m someone who looks at problems holistically and arrives at the solution by eliminating possible inferior solutions. Ortblad’s proposal to drop precast concrete sections of tunnel into the Duwamish makes sense. It’s simple. It’s versatile. Its much longer lasting. It’s less expensive. Its a construction method already familiar to our region (520 and 90 floating bridges). It’s not digging like 99. It’s like dropping a road into the water. The connections to surface streets can be made via bored tunnels or small bridges, and remember: this doesn’t need to happen where the existing bridge is located. This can happen anywhere. Sodo to alki. Georgetown to white center. Think of the options. Traffic could be more effectively dispersed than the way the west seattle bridge funnels it and clogs the roadways. I think the submerged tunnel is a promising idea for car and rail traffic. 

• Spencer June 30, 2020 (1:23 pm)

  Does anyone have a recording of the webinar?  I missed it, but am interested.

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