41 Replies to "WEST SEATTLE BRIDGE CLOSURE: Work this weekend includes 5-way repaving + lane reconfiguration including Delridge Way"

• Tim K April 23, 2020 (12:56 am)

  Oh my! One WB through lane at the 5-way intersection should be fun. This they move on w/o any public input or comments during the meeting? I realize it narrows to one lane alongside the Chelan Cafe anyway, but as it has been, at least you get a few more vehicles through each light cycle that can merge, flow west and clear out before vehicles cycle from Delridge and then the low bridge. The soft right could now stay green unless there’s a fire response WB as there’s no traffic coming from the high bridge. Roadway will go unused and the bottle neck will grow longer to the south on West Marginal. I may be missing something (always willing to listen to another view), but this move by SDOT doesn’t seem to make sense. Especially with only this vague explanation, “To support bus service, emergency response, and freight movement.” I’m all for that, but how does this help?

  • AdmiralBridge April 23, 2020 (6:23 am)

    Think the better answer would be to see if there was a way to keep it 2 lanes west of the intersection and allow the LH lane to flow to admiral and rh lane to flow to harbor.  The mild benefit of getting a couple of cars through before the light is offset by the high likelihood of road rage conflicts; have already seen a lot of birds flipped by people who’ve waited in the RH lane who view the LH lane as not waiting and cutting in.  Similar problem going on at WB Marginal where people are slipping through on the Delridge side and cutting in at the last minute.  

    • West Seattle Coug April 23, 2020 (7:23 pm)

      I actually offered up that solution to the Mayor, SDOT and Herbold in an email last weekend… including a photo showing how they can cut out a little bit of that island at the light.Here’s the interesting part. For years that westbound intersection had TWO right turn signals there… still there today! You could theoretically turn right from the left lane but then forced right away to merge. Anyway, they obviously chose to ignore my suggestion. Sigh…

  • Kyle April 23, 2020 (8:26 am)

    Yeah I do agree that I’m not sure how the lane restripes for the 5 way intersection help traffic flow there. Only one direction is green at a time, so it would make sense to get as many vehicles through the light cycle as possible and then sort out merging after the light. Agree it is funny how some things with SDOT have no comment period and others seem to drag on forever. The bus lane extension on Delridge makes sense for the 120 though.

    • Mark Martinell April 23, 2020 (4:41 pm)

      I guess if they can’t fix the bridge or know what to do or how to proceed on that busy work is the next best thing in their tiny minds 

• Dan April 23, 2020 (3:18 am)

  One lane should be fine, it just means traffic wont have to stop or slow for cars trying to merge at the last minute as they do now

• Chris April 23, 2020 (5:11 am)

  Are they out of their minds?  1 lane eastbound and 1 lane westbound???  It’s all about getting through the lights.  I knew SDOT was dense, this is plain stupid.  

• abovealki April 23, 2020 (8:10 am)

  Those diagrams are pretty much incomprehensible. I can’t figure out anything from them. Can’t they find someone who can do simple and understandable graphics? 

  • Mark martinell April 23, 2020 (4:44 pm)

    Not making them easy to understand was their whole point ,them making any sense was not part of the plan they don’t have in place yet 

• Admiral Dad April 23, 2020 (8:11 am)

  I like how the eastbound direction is going from1 through lane and 1 a shared left and through lane, to 1 through lane and 1 left turn lane (I wonder what the count of daily users is for that turn lane?).  As it is the traffic backs up quite a ways past the Cafe with drivers being able to use both lanes.  Obviously, as per city norm, there has been no thought or study into the traffic patterns because this is not a solution which is going to work.I can already see traffic will back up even further under the bridge on Chelan, blocking the buses even further as people use both lanes and try to merge into one at the intersection.

• Kalo April 23, 2020 (9:01 am)

  Open up Florida Street (Terminal 5) for folks headed to/from Harbor/Alki. Use some jersey barriers to designate thru lanes.

  • Steve April 25, 2020 (9:50 pm)

    I was wondering about this too – back in the day I used to cut through and pop out on Harbor Ave.  once in a while.  It seems like this could help at least in the westbound direction.  Not sure about adding one more heavy traffic entry point to the intersection eastbound, though.  

• shipwrecked_and_comatose April 23, 2020 (9:22 am)

  This is going to take an already terrible situation and make it much, much worse. The right hand thru-lane in the east leg of this intersection is going to back up for a mile or more down W. Marginal, while the left hand left-only lane will remain relatively open. So of course drivers are going to hop into the left lane, get as far up as they can, and then try to force their way back into the right lane, because that’s what drivers do.  This will exacerbate the back up in the right lane in a self feeding  Ouroboros of road-rage, hatred and flipped-birds. This already happens anywhere there is a thru-lane that gets backed up next to a left-only lane or right lane-ends, etc. I call the one on I-5 south coming from the downtown feeder lanes “the Zipper,” and from the window in my lab I used to watch it turn into a snarled mess every. single. day. ADMIRALBRIDGE’s idea above is a much better solution.

  • Chris April 23, 2020 (10:27 am)

    As somebody who used that intersection daily before the bridge closure,  I can attest that the afternoons, when returning home, that right lane heading northwest on West Marginal would back up more than a half mile around the bend from the light. If I was in a hurry, I would use the left lane and then cut in at the last minute by the Chelan Cafe. If that isn’t allowed because the left lane is changed to left turn only, but the signage doesn’t appear until you round the bend, then it will create conflict.  Also, the back ups will be tremendous once social isolation ends, especially on a sunny day with after work beach goers using W. Marginal, freight trucks, occasional trains, and normal commuters using the detour.

• Wendell April 23, 2020 (9:52 am)

  That intersection needs a roundabout. Has done for years.

• Mj April 23, 2020 (10:28 am)

  Please do not tell anyone that I generally believe that the SDoT plan should help via allowing significantly more green time to the WB traffic movement.  

• D April 23, 2020 (10:43 am)

  These are terrible revisions in light of this long-term traffic crisis emergency situation. The goal should be to get as many vehicles through that intersection as possible, keep as much of the traffic moving, not limit the amount of vehicles getting through the intersection. I am starting to vote for an organized safe distancing protest in that intersection. These revisions will compound the problems. I am a small independent contractor with truck, tools, clients in the Seattle area, no, cannot work from home, take transit or ride a bike. No, cannot survive on work alone within the West Seattle neighborhood. Please don’t tell me to move….half of my clientele base is in West Seattle.

  • WSJ April 23, 2020 (11:55 am)

    This is the height of arrogance: disrupting traffic to protest something you know nothing about because your “common sense” tells you you’re smarter than professional traffic engineers. 

    • Frog April 23, 2020 (1:45 pm)

      If these are professional traffic engineers, I can think of only two explanations for the plan:  1) they are actively trying to sabotage the intersection; or 2) if you are headed in the direction of Belvidere or Alaska Junction, they want you to turn left at the five-way, and go Delridge-Andover-28th-Yancy-Avalon, rather than turning left onto Avalon from Spokane.  Pro tip:  take the latter route even if you are going to Admiral or Alki, because it will be faster than waiting in the mile-long backup in the right-hand lane.

    • D April 24, 2020 (9:37 am)

      Your right. I’m stewpid, an don’t even no the diifrence between you’re and your :( sawrry. Been drivin West Seattle roads for thurtyfife years butt dunno nuthin bout anythin’ an i wood’nt wanna disrup the worser traffic jams SDOT creates with there inane revisions. Dunno diff between their, there an they’re neither :(

  • BBILL April 23, 2020 (1:35 pm)

    I suspect that your percentage of clientele based in West Seattle is increasing.

    • D April 24, 2020 (3:42 pm)

      Thanks, hopefully!

• Keep traffic flowing April 23, 2020 (11:34 am)

  I agree with the comments above.1) The goal is to improve traffic flow through the intersection by increasing the number of vehicles that pass through the intersection AND reducing the size of vehicle backups in any one direction.2) The five-way traffic signal lights limit movement in the intersection to one direction at anytime.3) Traffic light controls are now being actively monitored centrally with traffic cams and other tools at the intersection.4) Traffic to / from Spokane in any direction is limited by rule to transit and freight which results in much lower flow in these directions.5) Westbound and eastbound left turns from Chelan to the port or from West Marginal Way to Delridge have lower flow volumes at anytime of day than the traffic flow to / from Chelan and West Marginal Way.6) Two lanes eastbound to West Marginal Way from Chelan and two lanes westbound from West Marginal Way to Chelan will increase traffic flow across the controlled intersection because more vehicles can cross the intersection from two lanes than from one.7) Two lanes eastbound to West Marginal Way from Chelan and two lanes westbound from West Marginal Way to Chelan provide more visibility to traffic controllers regarding the size of the vehicles backups on Chelan and West Marginal Way.  One lane won’t sit empty and traffic control cameras and devices are “blind” to backups that extend down West Marginal Way or up Admiral beyond traffic cameras and other tools.Prior to April 1, the traffic signal lights at this intersection had a timing of about a two-four minute wait per direction when there were cars waiting in each direction.  This has changed to be more sensitive and improve traffic flow to / from Chelan and West Marginal Way. I don’t believe forcing traffic to merge prior to the intersection supports an increase in traffic flow.  There is simply not enough flow that turns left to support this change. Keeping two westbound lanes

  • Tim K April 23, 2020 (1:57 pm)

    Thank you, KEEP TRAFFIC FLOWING, for your excellent observations. Other great comments here as well. No, we can’t replace seven lanes or avoid all choke points, but every small thing helps. Mayor Durkan said on April 15, “The ground truth is felt by the community,” and recognized the need for citizen input. Where is our opportunity for input? I agree with ADMIRALBRIDGE’s comment that we need TWO westbound lanes. I didn’t have time to delve into that in my previous comment at 1AM. Here’s a mock up of how a second WB lane could be achieved. The photo looks east on Spokane at 23rd. Shift EB Spokane lanes to the south several feet allowing the current left turn lane (formerly to high bridge EB ramp) to continue to WB Spokane. Yes, it requires cutting curbs, removing median/”sidewalk” areas, new pavement and certainly new signals, maybe drainage, etc., but it would double the WB capacity. Another option would be to widen to two lanes along Chelan Cafe. I didn’t mock that up. The real estate is there one way or the other. It doesn’t have to be pretty; this is an urgent situation. I try to keep a positive, solution-oriented approach to life. If my ideas aren’t feasible, so be it. But SDOT (even if some staff live in WS) appears to be operating in a vacuum, isolated from community input. I’ll be exploring all my transportation options. I expect the city to do better than this.

     

    • BBILL April 23, 2020 (2:58 pm)

      What I heard was something similar to “all options are on the table,” and so maybe they are considering realignment as you suggest.

• wetone April 23, 2020 (12:05 pm)

  The west bound lane choke point at light (west side of Chelan Cafe) could easily be widened to 2 lanes. Cut sidewalk and island, dig out and pour concrete. No reason this couldn’t be done and drivable in 5days or less.  Going to single lane from West Marginal is just crazy talk. Really shows the incompetence of SDOT and city. It will greatly increase traffic to Olson/Roxbury and Highland Park. What SDOT is doing now is lip stick on pig, what does repaving 5 way intersection area do ?  it might all get changed with new bridge. Anyone that thinks Seattle is capable of fixing this bridge ( if condition is described as were told today) in 2 years wake up. Makes me wonder if  SDOT and city have an agenda for W/S. Who is going to fill all the new apartments being built here ? are there that many jobs available in W/S to support all new apartments being built here ? hummm  

  • tsurly April 23, 2020 (2:40 pm)

    “Cut sidewalk and island, dig out and pour concrete.” Um, no there is a crosswalk there for pedestrians. The curb also acts a buffer to keep vehicles away from the adjacent bridge pier. If you armchair engineering design were some implements, how long before some inattentive/distracted/aggressive driver plows into the pier

• Mj April 23, 2020 (12:10 pm)

  Keep traffic flowing – I proposed your scenario via removing the EB to NB and WB to SB left turn and combining the WB and EB traffic movement to SDoT.  Their proposal allows for LT phasing, the EB to NB LT volume is minimal thus this phase will drop off and allow much more green time for the WB traffic.  And regarding the EB movement from what I see the two lanes would be better utilized.  I am very critical of SDoT, but believe that what they are proposing will increase capacity of the intersection.

  • Mamasuze April 23, 2020 (2:02 pm)

    Sitting on delridge in line to make the right turn onto West Marginal Way, i have noticed that the bike riders crossing that intersection REALLY slows things down. They appear to be in no hurry…… what next..??

  • Frog April 23, 2020 (2:58 pm)

    I see your point, that reducing the left turn from EB Spokane into the
    port to very occasional, eastbound and west bound traffic could be
    simultaneous part of the time.  Problem is, what will happen on the
    Marginal Way side.  The left lane will be constantly blocked by line
    cutters who come up to the light and try to merge right; and the right
    hand lane will be constantly slowed down by line cutters merging in from
    the left at the last second.  These problems will more than offset any
    gain in capacity from running the westbound lane longer.  A better
    alternative might be:  1) recognize that the EB direction has a single
    lane choke point on Marginal Way just east of the intersection
    regardless, so little is lost from having EB as just one lane all the
    way through.  Redraw the marginal way side to have just one EB lane (not
    two that quickly merge, as now) and three WB lanes — two through lanes
    and one left turn only to Delridge.  The eastbound direction can have a very long green light during the morning outbound rush hour.  Then modify the west side like Tim suggests above, so no merge is needed to get to Admiral Way and Harbor Ave heading back into West Seattle.

• KT April 23, 2020 (2:18 pm)

  If this doesn’t convince you SDOT has no idea what they are doing then I give up.

  • BBILL April 23, 2020 (2:45 pm)

    How did you come to your conclusion that SDOT “has no idea what they are doing?” (Maybe it’s time for you to give up.)

• BBILL April 23, 2020 (2:45 pm)

  By restricting opposing LH turns, the traffic engineers might clear the straight/right traffic of westbound W Marginal Way SW & Chelan Ave SW simultaneously, thus approximately doubling the “through” capacity, but then there is the lane reduction on W Marginal Way SW, so maybe more vehicles cross the intersection during heavy demand periods. It’s difficult to guess what the traffic engineers have in mind, but if the light is going to be changed to allow two sides to move at once, that would help, even with lane reductions.

  • HP Steve April 24, 2020 (5:58 pm)

    From the drawing it appears this is what SDOT plans to do – give EB and WB simultaneous green lights for vehicles traveling straight. It works great at most intersections, and maybe it will work great here, too.It seems people commenting choose to bash SDOT’s plan before it’s even in place!The zipper merge of travelers both WB and EB after the intersection that people are complaining about (and calling them cutters)  would be gone (yet people are still complaining).

  • BBILL April 26, 2020 (5:38 pm)

    Again, it’s often difficult to guess all the factors under considerations, what the traffic engineers had in mind when they create a design, but the current signal timing is exactly as expected–sure there is a lane reduction, but there is also (approximately) twice the amount of crossing time. Loosely eastbound has much more capacity, and my guess, without collecting the data, that westbound will be slightly greater throughput, but it’s going to be fairly close. Whatever the case, it’s unlikely to be nearly as terrible as the amateur traffic engineers suggested.

• Mj April 23, 2020 (3:35 pm)

  I am a big time SDoT critique, the plan they proposed will improve capacity. 

  Where SDoT and the City failed us is in properly maintaining the WSB itself.

• NewBicycleCommuter April 23, 2020 (6:47 pm)

  It would be super awesome if, while working on repaving, SDOT could clean up the corner at Delridge on the bike path. It is super narrow, and has really broken up concrete right at the blind corner. There are more and more bicycles every day, and that blind corner is a menace and a head-on bicycle accident in the making. 

• ws-commuter April 24, 2020 (12:18 pm)

  Any idea if the discussion of creating one-way roads in/out of the area during peak times? with timed traffic lights?  Once one of the main roads out gets an accident we all know what happens, now just that much worse! ugh!!!

• Mel April 24, 2020 (9:56 pm)

  I’m all for first responders and protecting lives of our community members.. but isn’t that why they have the sirens?  Transit .. cool , cool .. I’m down with that but there is not enough C lines .. let alone bus drivers to drive them to make a dent in this the show of the shit that is shaping up to take residency for the next 2 years for about 100k of us needing to get to our jobs across the Duwamish.  That SDOT makes it blatantly clear that their concern and their deliverable is to support only the people that can squeeze into an overstuffed bus that will be subjected to long waits due to not having HOV priority .. I’m thinking more about selling this house before it’s worth a shit ton less than it is today.. but who in their right minds would buy here now?  Seriously, who? 

• Steve April 25, 2020 (9:42 pm)

  What the heck? They are choking westbound West Marginal down to one straight-through lane rather than letting two lanes through and zipper merging in front of the Chelan Cafe?  Or better yet, bust out some sidewalk and let two lanes flow through the second light side-by-side west bound?  SDOT has their heads up their nether regions for sure!

  • BBILL April 26, 2020 (5:39 pm)

    Consider the changes in signal timing too.

Sorry, comment time is over.