Unreasonable Speed Limit SW Admiral Way

[hooper1961]

I have not manipulated anything. The fact is the corridor incurs more accidents with a 30 MPH limit than it did with a 35 MPH limit. The City had zero Technical Data to support the change that was arbitrary and capricious. I am open to peer review but SDOT is not. WHY I ASK?

The 2008 data is effected by $4+{ gas prices that reduced travel significantly, thus lower accidents.

I do not appreciate personal attacks, the Technical Data shows that the prior 35 MPH limit was safe, efficient and reasonable. Thus there was zero justification for the change. And not one SDOT person has refuted my Technical Traffic Report conducted.

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[Carson]

Blah blah blah, no community support, blah blah blah, not one single city council members support, blah blah blah.

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[dawsonct]

Drive 35. I doubt you would be ticketed.

If you are used to driving 40 you may not get away with it anymore.

Bridge to ferry; 4 miles? not much time difference driving 5 m.p.h. slower.

I know that’s not the gist of your point Hoop, but seriously, is it REALLY this big a deal!

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[Carson]

Dawson, what you fail to point out, is when you really need to catch that ferry, you can’t even go 30 mph!!

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[hooper1961]

The point is providing consistency in speed limits based on the geometries, traffic volumes, accesses, pedestrian and other uses of streets. Streets with superior geometries need to allow higher speeds than lesser streets.

The subject section of SW Admiral Way has superior geometries, fewer accesses et al and the 35 MPH limit acknowledged this basic principal. Motorist respect for traffic control is lessened when Traffic Control is not reasonable; and the 30 MPH limit is not reasonable.

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[Carson]

Hooper, get the support of the community (not the few on WSB) and you will get your meeting. No support and you just keep beating that poor horse.

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[KBear]

“The subject section of SW Admiral Way has superior geometries”

Two points determine a line.

Three points determine a plane.

The same points stated over and over again determine an obtuse angle.

The sign says 30 mph.

Therefore the speed limit is 30 mph.

QED

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[hooper1961]

KBear and you would follow the leader over a cliff? The issue is that the 30 MPH limit is not reasonable and is inconsistent with Technical Standards. Not one SDOT person has refuted my Technical Analysis that clearly documented that the 35 MPH limit was appropriate. And in fact other nationally respected criteria result in recommended limit of 45 MPH (that I would not support in this situation)!

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[dawsonct]

Hoop, I really wonder how many drivers look at the speed limit signs and ponder the inconsistencies. Other than you.

I hope you pursue more meaningful issues with the same tenacity.

But seriously, it’s 5 MPH.

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[Carson]

Hooper, SDOT doesn’t care. Don’t you get it? Until you get community support, they won’t give you the time of day or even consider raising the speed limit.

But keep hitting that horse!!

Your issue is just that, your issue, you are a voice of 1.

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[villagegreen]

Man, you guys are funny – and apparently flush with free time. This is probably a mistake, but I’ll chime in as voice number 2.

The speed limit should have obviously never been changed from 35. Even if the statistics don’t show a marked increase in accidents after the reduced speed limit, they do show that it hasn’t made things safer.

The naysayers don’t seem to get it. Everybody agrees that there would probably be fewer accidents if everyone drove the posted 30mph speed limit, but that will never happen (even with the frequent police speed traps). The problem is that people still continue to drive 40 or even 45 on the hill. This will always be the case because the road “geometries” (as hooper1961 likes to phrase it) encourages it.

So, all you need to ask yourself is this – is it safer to have some people driving 30mph and others weaving around them going 45? Or most people going 35 and some going 45. The statistics bear out the contention that roads with cars driving at greater differentials of speed have greater numbers of accidents. End of argument. As for how to get the city to hear the statistics, I got nuthin.

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[hoffanimal]

Is a record for most comments in sight? Job, your position has been well-stated (repeatedly), but what does age have to do with riding bicylcles? Plenty of “older” people still ride them up hills. Let’s keep it real.

Village, thanks for boiling it all down to layman’s terms.

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[austin]

Get all drivers to slow down and pay attention all the time and I’ll get the city to hear your statistics.

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[mpento]

I wonder if the statistics were adjusted to allow for the Toyota accelerator issuse? Maybe someone already asked that but there is no way I’m reading the whole thread to find out :P

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[dhg]

miws: 42? You mean how much is 6×9?

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[dawsonct]

I have to admit, the last time I drove anywhere CLOSE to 35 on Admiral was when I was following two cars driving next to each other at the same speed, and I was cursing.

Just have to time it right to avoid tickets.

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[miws]

dhg, you are correct.

Mike

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[JoB]

hoffanimal..

as you age.. your ability to maintain physical activity wanes. Those who are able to remain active will remain active longer..

but age will eventually affect even those who are active. Add an illness or accident or injury into the mix and age related slowdown will hit a lot earlier. Add chronic illness into the mix and it hits even earlier. Age does matter.

I am sorry to have to be the one to inform you of the obvious… but those are basic facts of life.. and won’t change much whether you face them or not.

If you think it doesn’t matter.. you really should look at the info on pedestrian mortality in West Seattle. Those with impaired mobility are killed at a disproportionate rate by careless drivers…

villagegreen…

so we should raise the speed limit on all hills because everyone just naturally wants to drive faster?

probably not. There are a lot of good reasons to slow down on hills.

The problem is that people mistake that road for a restricted access freeway entrance and nothing could be further from the truth.

There are at least 5 feeder intersections into residential neighborhoods on the lower section of Admiral Way (below the bend) … and another 4 – 6 on the upper section (above the bend and on the east side of the overpass bridge).

and one crosswalk on the entire stretch.

it’s no wonder those who view Admiral Way as a neighborhood differ with those who consider Admiral Way a freeway entrance in their perceptions of acceptable speed limits.

In fact, there is one pedestrian crosswalk between the bottom of Admiral Way (and a bus stop) and 42nd street..

Would that be acceptable for your neighborhood?

the speed limit isn’t the problem.

tickets aren’t the problem.

Drivers who mistake driving for a competitive sport are the problem.

If the SPD issues enough speeding tickets… drivers will slow down….

hooper1961…

i shouldn’t have to point this out to you since you are a certified engineer and thus must have at least a passing acquaintance with statistics…

but comparing like amounts of time to achieve comparable longitudinal averages is simply basic statistics.

you don’t get to arbitrarily take a year out of the stats or compare unequal amounts of time to make your point.

In statistical analysis that is considered manipulation of data and requires more than a few footnotes. That’s not a personal insult but a statement of the basics of statistics.

However, that post did bring up an interesting observation.

When you arbitrarily discounted the year with low traffic accident stats after the speed was lowered.. you stated that higher gas prices were THE cause for lowered traffic accidents in one of the years after the speed reduction… i assume because of reduce traffic volume…

Again, statistically speaking…you would have to have more data to support that assertion….

but let’s assume it is supported… that if we went back in time to the last time gas prices were higher than average we would see a similar reduction in accident rates…

If that is true.. wouldn’t the obvious alternate solution to traffic safety be raising the tax on gas?

After all.. if those numbers hold true.. the accident rate was cut in half when people had to pay more for their gas.

Personally.. i would love to see higher gas prices…

there would be fewer emissions because people would drive less..

more people would ride the bus…

increased demand for public transportation would necessitate investment in a better system…

which would make public transportation easier to use…

Everyone would walk more…

Obesity would fall…

high blood pressure, heart disease and type II diabetes rates would fall…

we would all live longer.

social pressure for civility would increase as pedestrian density increased…

that all sounds pretty good to me…

Would you join me advocating for a substantial gas tax hike to increase public safety and fund public transportation?

It sure makes sense to me.

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[hoffanimal]

Job, thanks for the lecture on aging, but I think I’ll pass. It seems in your world we are all teetering ont the brink of immoblity at what, age 50? Anyway, I wasn’t talking about pedestrians with impaired mobility I was taking issue with your comment about age making riding bikes up hill less attractive. My question is why should we assume we couldn’t or wouldn’t want to do that, especially as we all get older? Gotta keep those parts moving!

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[Carson]

I know I am the one who is beating the dead horse here, but it just dawned on me that Hooper must have some ulterior motive. I have no idea what it is, a job, resume building, revenge, but its not as simple as getting the speed limit upped a lousy 5 or 10 miles. I mean, if it was me I would contact people that live west of Calif and commute and sell them on the idea of a slightly higher speed limit equalling shorter commute times. I would sell those East of Calif all the way down to the bottom that slightly increased speeds would net result in a safer street. But Hooper in not doing anything common sense here. I suspect if we dig a little deeper we will find another motive, but damn if I can figure it out..

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[nuni]

meanwhile, why don’t we try to get this to 6 pages? :P

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[hooper1961]

My motive is simple improved Traffic Safety for all users through rational Speed Limits based on Traffic Engineering Science; not Fantasy Engineering as used by SDOT

Speed limits that are set based on rational Traffic Engineering criteria and are consistent throughout the region will foster improved safety for all users. In layman’s terms streets/roads with similar geometries, traffic, access, pedestrian, bicycle characteristics should all have the same consistent speed limit regardless of jurisdiction.

As a person who has conducted over a 1,000 traffic studies in the region it is very clear there is inconsistency in Speed Limits that breads driver disrespect and loss of trust in the value of Speed Limit signage.

SDOT is losing its trust to the motoring public by its failure to follow Traffic Engineering criteria. There is no Technical Traffic criteria that supports the lowering of the speed limit on Admiral Way from 35 to 30 MPH. The 35 MPH limit operated safely, was reasonable and met the Traffic Engineering criteria (btw some Traffic Criteria supports a 45 MPH limit, the 35 MPH limit is on the low end of being technically defensible).

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[Carson]

Hooper, your actions speak opposite to your intentions, but nice try!!!

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[JoB]

hoffanimal..

feeling touchy about your age?

i don’t think i mentioned any age at which one ages… but ultimately.. depending upon our circumstances.. we all do.

and when we do.. riding uphill on bikes becomes a whole lot less attractive.

And more to the point for this thread…

we lose the ability dodge cars.

i am all for keeping everything i can moving for as long as i can… and am in awe of the little old ladies in the water aerobics class who regularly kicked my …

now… call that a lecture if you want..

i thought i was just stating the obvious

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[JoB]

hooper1961…

step away from the screen

and go take a walk on Admiral Way.

the view is stupendous

and there are people there

sometimes you can’t see the forest for the trees

Nuni…

maybe one more post will do it.

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