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November 25, 2014 at 4:06 am #816203
JoBParticipantit would have been almost impossible for it to happen any other way :(
this is not a victory for anyone
November 25, 2014 at 4:53 am #819737
JKBParticipantA thread like this was expected, yes.
November 25, 2014 at 8:34 am #819738
JanSParticipantJKB..so are you saying this thread shouldn’t happen? Do you have any opinion about the actual grand jury decision?
November 25, 2014 at 9:05 am #819739
JanSParticipantNovember 25, 2014 at 4:53 pm #819740
JoBParticipantJKB
as long as our system perpetuates the belief that a secret grand jury investigation into whether or not an officer should be indicted according to a very strict criteria should include the full evidence that would be presented in a public trial..
then yes.. this post is to be expected.
Quite frankly.. i am surprised that you wouldn’t think questioning a system that makes it almost impossible to prosecute abuses of power isn’t a good thing.
November 25, 2014 at 5:21 pm #819741
JoBParticipantin 2013 there were 32 officers killed by gunfire in the United States.. 2 of them accidental shootings
http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2013
this year there have been 42.. 2 of those accidental shootings
http://www.odmp.org/search/year
it’s impossible to accurately count the number of gun related deaths attributed to the police in the line of duty in the United States because there are no federal statistics kept…
yup.. none.. let that sink in for just a moment…
and then thank the NRA who thinks keeping a database of shootings of any kind might actually alert the American public to the danger of unlimited numbers of firearms…
We know exactly how many officers were killed in 2013 by gunfire.. but we do not have an accurate count of how many citizens were killed by police in the line of duty…
it turns out the best tally is actually on a facebook page.. which reports 754 fatalities by officer in the last half of 2013.. 1750 to date since then.. that’s 996 this year alone.
https://www.facebook.com/KilledByPolice
there are others where you can get a look at the details behind those numbers
http://www.fatalencounters.org/
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
http://regressing.deadspin.com/were-compiling-every-police-involved-shooting-in-americ-1624180387
all links from this article
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/another-much-higher-count-of-police-homicides/
and all requiring significant digging to find actual counts….
from Wikipedia… the number of justifiable homicides by officer in the United States averages 400 yr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States
For the years of 2013 and 2014 in Canada wiki list 17 incidents
That there is a disparity in those figures.. even if you adjust them for population… is an understatement of vast proportions.
We clearly have a problem.. not just with the way that our police force interacts with it’s citizenry but with the authoritarian manner in which we approach policing… and it’s inevitable corollary… incarceration.
isn’t it time we acknowledged that problem and worked to fix it.
Personally, i liked officer friendly much better.
December 2, 2014 at 9:18 am #819742
HMC RichParticipantI’ve dealt with street thugs and jerk cops. I will choose the cops any day.
December 2, 2014 at 3:32 pm #819743
miwsParticipantRich, do you think you’d feel the same way if you were a Black Man?
For African-Americans, the “choice” of whom to deal with may be a wash.
Mike
December 2, 2014 at 4:11 pm #819744
rwParticipantPerhaps a better response to “street thugs” and other civil disturbances is fewer “jerk cops” such as through better training and a different policing philosophy. I prefer not to live in a police state where the police are seen as adversaries by a large segment of the population.
It should be of great concern that people respect neither the police nor the grand jury result. But even if imperfect, I don’t think the grand jury would have had a different outcome with more information. It seemed to be an example of the Rashomon Effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon_effect
December 2, 2014 at 5:44 pm #819745
wakefloodParticipantRW, just because there appears to be differing interpretations as to what exactly transpired, the following appears to be undeniable:
An unarmed person was killed by a single police officer whose story was – and I read it several times – at the VERY LEAST – debatable as to its truthfulness. It doesn’t pass the sniff test.
If THAT ALONE doesn’t require a trial by his peers, then something is most definitely wrong with this picture.
December 2, 2014 at 9:27 pm #819746
rwParticipantOK, Wakeflood. I agree with all but the second half of your second paragraph — but then you seem to have studied his testimony more closely than I did.
So either policies/laws regarding police culpability in shooting incidents need to be changed, or the rules for how the results of grand jury proceedings lead to trials by jury need to be changed — or perhaps both need to be changed.
I also wonder, however, whether trying this officer based on public outcry will help, especially in light of all the conflicting versions and testimony. My belief is that we as a society should move forward to solve the underlying problems (in ways such as those I’ve presented) rather than focus merely on this particular case and officer.
December 2, 2014 at 10:21 pm #819747
wakefloodParticipantCertainly those issues need to be addressed and I hope that this ends up being the case that breaks the camel’s back. But of course, it won’t be. Because it’s not just about laws, it’s about hearts and minds.
Changing THAT is always the true measure of a society’s capacity for justice.
I’ve heard lots of folks these last few days who, without knowing a damn thing about the case get upset at the protesters as their first and foremost concern.
Tell me how in the era of Faux News, we’re going fix that?
December 3, 2014 at 9:18 am #819748
HMC RichParticipantWake, why did you have to put in the Fox news line when you know the other media entities purposely leave out provocative stories out or don’t give enough facts? Sheesh. Your not helping.
Mike. White privilege allows me to look less suspiciously at the Police. When I had really long hair and lived an alternative style the police didn’t care much for me. Because my choice was non conformist at the time.
I wish life was easier for minorities. But I am not a minority. I can’t speak for them like too many others try to do. I used to. Fortunately someone set me straight.
Thug Black Culture has to be changed.
But, what did Jesse Jackson say a few years ago about walking down a street alone? Even he was more comfortable with a white person walking behind him than a black.
Listen to Charles Barkley who is not giving a pass to thug culture. http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/charles-barkley-calls-looters-scumbags-backs-grand-jury-decision
Rudy Giuliani has fought the mafia and other thugs while being open on other issues that many Republicans do not embrace. But his time as a prosecutor has valuable insight.
http://nypost.com/2014/11/30/giuliani-to-holder-dont-make-federal-case-out-of-ferguson/
Reality needs to come into play. Stupid people hurting Seattle and could have hurt many more. http://www.mrctv.org/blog/ferguson-protesters-chain-mall-exits-shut-anniversary-locked-door-fire-deaths
Have you heard about the death of the Bosnian immigrant who was killed by youths with hammers? Or the case of the black officer in Salt Lake City who had to shoot a white man (glad he did). No riots or looting there. Or the Akron incident where a disgruntled minority killed an off duty white cop. Hell, Chicago every day of the year. Black on Black crime. The topic no liberal seems to want to talk about.
There is a horrible subset of problems with our minority communities. Bruce Harrell and others are trying to change it here locally, but it has to come from within. It has to come from people like Martin Luther King. Not Al Sharpton. I was at a public meeting with inner city groups. They sure let the cops have it but didn’t seem to have many answers on stopping the problems other than saying the police were always picking on them.
The minority community needs our LOVE and support. But they have to take part in the process and start fixing their problems. We are lucky that we are in a rather tolerant area compared to other parts of the country. But we really have a long way to go.
Everytime I see a young man with his pants down and his underclothes in visible sight I just shake my head. Talk about the dumbest fashion statement ever. Don’t worry, I have seen all races doing this. But it is a reflection of a destructive thug culture. Just like my choice in lifestyle that said I will not conform, they have chosen that persona.
President Obama has addressed it a bit. He is far more capable of doing this but he has not gone far enough. I was hoping that he would help mend our country more. I am not seeing as much as I would like but it all will take time.
I read an article the other day about a very successful black family that tried to be color blind. They had Masters or PHD’s, Lived in very upscale neighborhoods. Their kids went to some of the best private schools. And some stupid rednecks called their teenage boy that word NOBODY should ever say. It devastated the boy and the family. I want an America that doesn’t have racism. I want people to be relatively color blind. But all sides have to come together and work this out. I don’t want anybody to pretend they are white. I just want them to be tolerant and live their life in a fruitful way.
I have only been attacked and assaulted by minorities as a resident of Seattle. More than once also. They did it because I was white and they were not. I do not feel comfortable at times with some groups. That has not stopped me from having an african american roommate. From hiring blacks and other minorities. From having friends of all races and backgrounds because those people are individuals, not a group.
But it is not me who has to to change. I am trying to help. And I can help make that happen by teaching my son and his friends that skin color doesn’t matter.
Chris Rock’s insight on race is quite interesting. http://www.motherjones.com/mixed-media/2014/12/chris-rock-daughters%20
There is always hope.
December 3, 2014 at 3:59 pm #819749
miwsParticipant
Rich, I certainly don’t condone the looting, vandalism, and other violence of some of the protesters.
Quick answer to some of your points/links, as I don’t have much time right now; this all boils down to Minorities still the support of Society to give them hope, and reduce the hurdles to bettering themselves. The Thugs, and their ilk, in the pic above, and the predominantly Republican politicians they own, are continuing to see to it that the 99%’ers are being held back, and Minorities are continuing to get the brunt of it.
Now, regarding your links, and their sources:
Charles Barkley; at least at one time identified himself as Republican, I would guess he still has mostly Conservative leanings, he has fame and wealth.
Rudy Giuliani, Pretty Dang Republican.
mrctv; Conservative News Source.
Chris Rock; I’ve never followed him closely, what I’ve seen he seems pretty funny. Between not following him, and a quick Wiki search, I would have to guess he probably lean more Liberal. But he, too, has fame and wealth, and although I didn’t have time to research the School his Kids attend, I would have to guess it a Private, not Public School. Plus, they are Chris Rock’s Kids! How cool is that? Probably and automatic pass to being accepted by the other (mostly white) Kids!
Mike
December 3, 2014 at 4:23 pm #819750
wakefloodParticipantMike, you don’t even need to go there to counter Rich’s arguments.
In fact, Rich torpedoes most of his own. To wit, and I’ll be brief:
You ask why I called out Faux News? Because they spend hours drilling the inaccurate meme of “Black on Black” crime. The fact that you USE THAT TERM, suggests you have accepted their view on the topic. THAT’S why I called them out specifically. It’s called CRIME, period, full stop.
Secondly, the very concept is flawed at best and racist at it’s core and very worst. Why? Facts: “…from 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders, but that racial exclusivity was also true for white victims of violent crime—86 percent were killed by white offenders. Indeed, for the large majority of crimes, you’ll find that victims and offenders share a racial identity, or have some prior relationship to each other.
What many miss about crime, in general, is that it’s driven by opportunism and proximity; If African-Americans are more likely to be robbed, or injured, or killed by other African-Americans, it’s because they tend to live in the same neighborhoods as each other. Residential statistics bear this out (PDF); blacks are still more likely to live near each other or other minority groups than they are to whites. And of course, the reverse holds as well—whites are much more likely to live near other whites than they are to minorities and African-Americans in particular.”
And with regards to “thug culture”. Have you SEEN any predominantly white High School in this country? The physical look, the music, the language, etc. is – and has been for over 15yrs. now – heavily influenced by minority culture.
The negative attributes of that culture are there to be sure, just as the more predominantly white and rural meth culture embodies in it’s milieu.
I’m not giving anyone a free pass and the folks who want to paint this as a racial issue are doing everyone a disservice. Read Kareem Abdul Jabbar’s article regarding the topic. He rightly points out how the issue is now more economic-based than racial.
Give people fair treatment regardless of economic status (and don’t even try to tell me that happens now) and you have BOTH an argument to use against the lawbreakers and a viable point for those who can now legitimately say they have little hope for making it in this country.
You want social change. Fight for social and economic justice. Otherwise your argument not only falls flat but rings of racism.
December 3, 2014 at 4:29 pm #819751
wakefloodParticipantFor those who wish to read it, here’s the column from Kareem Abdul-Jabbar referenced in my earlier post:
http://time.com/3132635/ferguson-coming-race-war-class-warfare/
December 7, 2014 at 1:56 am #819752
gregsalmonParticipantAs soon as your demonstration blocks a highway, street, or sidewalk it has become violent.
December 7, 2014 at 5:15 pm #819753
dobroParticipant“As soon as your demonstration blocks a highway, street, or sidewalk it has become violent.”
This appears to be a rather arbitrary definition that has little to do with the actual meaning of the word “violent”. Kind of like “if I disapprove of what you do then you’re being violent.”
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