Time to stop calling us Democracy or Republic?

[wakeflood]

Pretty obviously, we’re neither of those anymore. If your eyes and ears aren’t convincing enough, here’s some data.

How do we turn this around?

http://www.desdemonadespair.net/2014/04/princeton-study-concludes-us-government.html

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[JoB]

i believe the most effective step towards bringing this around would be mandatory voting…

which would fix the registration problems we have now immediately.

if you are a US citizen you would certify that once and be registered to vote for life.

which would bring an entirely new group of voters into the polls.. those who are not currently swayed by the piles of money spent by political groups during elections.

i believe this would lead to a loss of interest in dark money because if you can’t buy an election with it.. what use is it?

it wouldn’t be an instant transition.. but it could be the tipping point for more transparency in elections

and build on the political inroads the occupy movement has begun… actual local control of local elections.

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[JoB]

we need to look at three words very closely

right, privilege and responsibility

it seems most people think that privileges are rights and that they come absent responsibility

but then..

we have had this discussion before ;-)

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[wakeflood]

That’s some great thoughts, JoB. I’ll be thinking about the mandatory voting concept alot now!

And yeah, we did kinda’ beat up the rights/privs/resps thing recently. Not sure we’re all on the same page yet but there was some fairly significant dialogue at least.

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[VBD]

Perhaps the problem is that we live in a world where people are becoming increasingly detached from the mechanisms of society. There was a time, not long ago, where we understood the workings of most of the devices we encounter on a daily basis. People tuned up their own cars, understood how to wire a basic electric circuit, could unclog a drain, etc. Now most people do not understand how their computer works. Many are uncertain whether their microwave oven is safe. Most have no idea what to do if their car won’t start.

I would suggest this extends to public policy as well. In an increasingly complex world, we have become accustomed to not knowing how the economy works, and what policies would be best for economic health. We don’t know exactly what stem cells are, and if the government should fund research on them. We can’t tell if the tunnel drilling plans are good or bad, and if the prediction for completion and cost are accurate.

We are detached from the mechanisms of our society, and thus, we aren’t sure how to evaluate the best course of action. Most people don’t feel they have the time to sort out all the details of complex legislation. Many couldn’t understand it if they tried.

So for a large chunk of the population, the solution has been to simply check out of the process. They stop voting, or vote based on whether they like (or hate) a TV commercial. Or maybe based on whether you think a candidate is a good, honest person. We end up with a political system that tries to simply make the voters feel good, and cuts out the real details.

Most citizens no longer regard our government as being “of the people”; it’s more often viewed as an “us and them” system. If the city council makes a decision, we don’t say “we” did that, we say “they” did that.

In the end we just feel powerless – because we are.

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[wakeflood]

Well said, VBD. And it doesn’t help that we revel in our ignorance as opposed to being humbled by it. We don’t even bother to have civics as part of our curriculum – and why is that, exactly?

Who wants us to not know or be connected to our governance and responsibilities as citizens? Hmmm… cui bono?

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[wakeflood]

Although, I’m pretty sure I could guess the curriculum in its entirety, if it became a requirement again.

The syllabus would list a single book. The book would be 350 typewritten pages of one phrase. Remember “All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.” from The Shining? Same thing.

The class would consist of a full hour of the students chanting said phrase in unison.

“…the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

Anything else would just be useless socialist brainwashing, right?

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[VBD]

No kidding wake…. How in the world could you get everyone to agree on what to teach?!

Critical thinking skills are vital to obtain truth, but one man’s truth is another man’s propaganda. If you actually attempt to separate myth from fact, somebody’s going to object.

Carl Sagan proposed we equip our students with something called a “baloney detection kit”; a set of logical tools that a person can employ to determine whether something is real or not. In light of how people have become dependent on the internet for information, effective baloney detection is more important than ever.

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[JoB]

every time i think our current situation is unique i think of Will Rogers in the 30’s…

http://www.willrogers.com/quotes.html

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[Wes C. Addle]

I agree with everything said so far. It’s a sad state. I took a college night class last year to brush up on some things and was in classes with the typical 18-21 year old crowd. I am in my late 30’s and all I can say is that I have no reason to fear losing my job to someone younger and more intelligent. I may lose it to someone younger and cheaper though.

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I like JoB’s idea of mandatory voting though. I mean we can file taxes online, we should be able to vote that way too.

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[maplesyrup]

If you want the least-informed, least-educated, and most apathetic people to have a substantial impact on elections, mandatory voting is the way to go. I know it sounds elitist, but I don’t want people who don’t know and don’t care being forced to decide things that affect me.

What needs to be addressed is campaign funding. Put modest limits on what individuals can spend, no matter how much money they may have, make corporate contributions illegal, and give a public stipend for national elections. If you make it so that politicians are not beholden to PAC’s, lobbyists, and big donors, the power gets distributed among a more diffuse group of constituents.

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[wakeflood]

I would like to live long enough to see that happen, syrup.

The biggest obstacle that I see now is that those who hold the power know their ideas and ideology are bankrupt and they can’t win on their policies alone. It’s gonna’ take something big AND a change in the SCOTUS balance, first and foremost.

Virtually every decision they’ve made that has consolidated power for elites and corporates (save ACA which is still a boon for insurance companies), has been on a 5-4 vote. We need two votes to swing the balance since the next judge to retire is likely Ginsberg and she’s on the 4 side. Would love to see a D in power who would actually nominate a progressive but they won’t since one couldn’t get through Congress. What a cluster.

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[VBD]

I absolutely agree with maplesyrup. Simply forcing everyone to vote, without revamping the motivations behind the politics, won’t change anything, and potentially could make things worse.

Politicians pander to the big money donors, and use smoke and mirrors to fool the public into voting. I would suggest going a step further and remove ALL the private (including corporate) money from campaigns.

Publicly funded means, such as on-line video voters pamphlets (or something more creative perhaps), would be available to voters. No lavish paraphrasing and gushing imagery. Just the facts.

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[JoB]

the flaw in the argument that you want only educated voters to vote is that this is not what is happening now..

the “base” that Republicans are whipping like a stick to get angry enough to turn out in large numbers are not exactly what i would call educated voters.

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[JTB]

In their book “It’s Even Worse Than in Looks,” the constitutional scholars Norm Ornstein (Am. Enterprise Institute) and Thomas Mann (Brookings Inst.) put forward a number of recommendations to reduce the stalemate in Congress and ability of one party to tie up government by using methods developed for parliamentary forms of governing. They assert our form of government was intended to compel compromise and collaboration via simple majority rule. Some of their proposals include mandatory voting, voting on the weekend, end of the filibuster, end of mid-term elections, campaign finance reform, and elimination of gerrymandering.

I believe the Australian experience with mandatory voting has proven capable of keeping pressure on their political parties to perform.

Regarding Maplesyrup’s assertions, I think it’s abundantly clear we have hoards of grossly uninformed and misinformed voters at present. Perhaps having less educated voters would add a layer of more practical people with actual common sense to the mix. Do we even know what the educational background is for those who abstain from voting? Perhaps they are smart enough to reject being played for suckers time and time again. The point is that mandatory voting, while probably helpful, is not going to be a sufficient remedy slone for fixing this broken system.

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[VBD]

True JoB, but I would think that forcing uneducated citizens to vote doesn’t solve the problem either.

I think campaign finance issue is the more influential.

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[wakeflood]

I’m trying to think if I can remember an instance of nefariousness be it in govt, business or general human activity where “following the money” didn’t get to the source of the problem.

There are the occasional instances where securing power was an interim step to the ultimate payoff, but that’s merely an issue of process. And even then, initial investments are usually required.

To mangle George Clinton’s adage, free your elections and your ass will follow.

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[maplesyrup]

Sure, there are loads of misinformed voters already (perhaps some of us are in that group, myself included). And it cuts across the entire spectrum- conservative, liberal, libertarian, progressive…

Now do I want even more of them in the mix? No. And I especially don’t want apathetic voters being forced to vote. That’s how you wind up with a rhinoceros on your city council (http://hoaxes.org/archive/permalink/cacareco_the_rhinoceros) or even worse, how you wind up with people like Cristina Kirchner.

BTW I’m basing my views on mandatory voting on numerous conversations I’ve had with people in Brazil and Argentina who have that system, and NONE of them think it’s a good idea.

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[JoB]

wake..

it’s pretty impossible to follow the money with the influx of dark money..

but easy to see that if the Republicans carry this midterm it will be because they are doing a far better job of turning out voters than democrats

and if you want to know how they are doing it.. all you have to do is watch FOX news…

as for those who choose not to vote.. i can’t speak for anything more than the random sampling that hubby walks with at noon.. but they are choosing not to vote because they did their due diligence once and voted and the idiots carried the election.. and that is almost a direct quote..

i have to think that mandatory voting would up the intelligence level of the average voter.. not dumb it down.

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[waynster]

I found this from a South Carolina Senator…………..

http://www.seattlepi.com/default/article/Graham-Remark-about-helping-white-men-was-joke-5858758.php

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[JoB]

waynster..

an in joke meant to be taken seriously?

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[JanS]

Lindsey Graham is a joke.Once it was out of his mouth (in a private place – but nothing is really private), and people responded in an uproar, what was he going to say? “Yeah, I meant that”. No, he has to trot out the old “It was a joke” response. I don’t believe that. I firmly believe that what one says first, esp. a politician who speaks often to many groups, is really the truth. This man is from the south, people. He is racist, and he is white MAN proud to be a white man. It’s all about them. They own the street, and think they own the world, and no one will ever convince me differently.

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[JanS]

oh, and not voting is surrender…and many are waving the white flag already :(

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[workin4thedirt]

Compulsory voting with the intent to fix democracy is akin to Johnathan Swift’s “A Modest Proposal;” democracy will be “fixed” because the autocrats ate it up.

Define Republic

Define Democracy

If a democratic republic is what a more perfect union would look like in this day and age, the constitution is a good road map. In it, it suggests autonomy and equality rather than despots forcing institutions on the people. Although it has been manipulated along the way, there are some valuable precepts of freedom in there. If the citizens don’t vote, the government loses legitimacy. Maybe that time has come.

Just a couple notes to explore to become a more informed voter:

Money:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Tender_Cases

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII9NZ8MMVM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMwcXmtvQAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz05A6cP6Iw

Education:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJhSAv-NrDo

-John Taylor Gatto- This is just a taste. It’s a long interview, but worth it. Check out the Prussian school system and the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeEWPbTad_Q

Liberty, Government:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNIgztvyU2U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xd_zkMEgkI

https://archive.org/details/NoTreasonTheConstitutionOfNoAuthority

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[JoB]

mandatory voting isn’t as uncommon as you might think..

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/jul/04/voterapathy.uk

in fact.. it has been the law of the land in some countries for over a century .. and it’s turned out fairly well in most..

workin4thedirt

” If the citizens don’t vote, the government loses legitimacy. Maybe that time has come.”

i followed your links and i can see that requiring everyone to vote might not turn out the results you might want…

but there you go.

i am guessing you wouldn’t like the results of a loss of our democracy as well as you think anyway…

“Places with mandatory voting also have less wealth inequality, lower levels of political corruption and higher levels of satisfaction with the way democracy is working than voluntary systems. Here in Australia, where we love freedom as much as anyone else, we have a mandatory voting regime that is well managed, corruption-free, easy to access, cheap to run and has an approval rating of more than 70 percent.

Is being required to vote a violation of autonomy? Sure, but so is mandatory taxation, jury duty and the requirement to educate our children.

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