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September 15, 2015 at 3:28 am #818444
JanSParticipanthttp://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-leads-hillary-clinton-iowa-new-hampshire-371764
what do you think about this man and what he is doing/saying? He was at Liberty University yesterday…
September 15, 2015 at 4:35 am #827859
JTBParticipantI’m very surprised at how much his basic message about the systemic nature of income inequality is resonating. Of course, the “but he’s a socialist theme” crops up constantly in the media but isn’t gaining much traction—yet—it will if he presents an ongoing challenge to Hillary.
I thought his decision to go to Liberty University and challenge the religious conservatives on a moral and religious basis was inspired. I haven’t listened to the whole speech, but what I’ve heard and read didn’t come across as critical or condemning as much as challenging or inviting in a positive manner.
I certainly don’t expect it will lead to an up-welling of support from that sector, but it may well serve to set a tone or theme that lessens the message or impact of the political moralizers who exploit evangelicals. Who knows even the media may stop its usual fawning and simultaneous dismay at everything the religious right puts out.
In any event, I thought it was a very clever and effective move. Let’s see if it generates any momentum in furthering the voice of moral authority that underlies his basic political stance.
September 15, 2015 at 12:32 pm #827860
redblackParticipantif bernie is the nominee, i will rejoin the democratic party.
September 15, 2015 at 2:14 pm #827861
JoBParticipantJTB
he resonates more with young conservatives than you might think. My grandson who is about as knee jerk fundamentalist conservative as they come (except for this rock and roll thing his dad can’t understand) is now campaigning for Bernie.
September 15, 2015 at 4:46 pm #827862
mrseattleMemberVladimir Lenin
( The principle Founder of the Soviet Union ) Said the Following:
” The Goal of Socialism is Communism “
” It is true that Liberty is precious; So Precious that it must be rationed “
and
” He who now talks about the “Freedom of the press” goes backward and halts our headlong course towards Socialism “
Socialism enslaved and Murdered millions and that is not even up for Debate and imposed the Death Penalty if anyone tried to escape ” Defect” from that System.
What kind of System is that ?
Every example of Socialism has ended in Poverty and the Death of Millions.
Any ” System ” that looks upon ” Freedom ” as an Enemy is True Evil.
September 15, 2015 at 4:59 pm #827863
SmittyParticipantHe’s been saying the same thing since the early 80’s. His poll numbers are simply a reflection of America “catching up” to him and his ideas.
He will continue to gain traction because HRCs negatives are so high. He has a real chance, but needs to come close in South Carolina and the more traditional/center states.
September 15, 2015 at 5:17 pm #827864
rwParticipantIf you think the Republican fear machine has and continues to play extreme hardball with John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama, then I’ll bet they would be ecstatic to have the Democrats nominate Bernie Sanders. It would make their hyperbolic bs that much easier to spread.
MRSeattle demonstrates the point by bringing up Lenin, communism, and totalitarianism.
Bernie describes himself as a “democratic socialist,” which is often used as a synonym for “social democrat.” As always, the devil is in the details, but I take it to mean that Bernie favors more regulation to counter the excesses of capitalism, and more government intervention to address people’s needs that are not being adequately met by the balance of capitalism and social programs as they stand today. Think today’s Sweden or Norway, rather than Stalinist Russia.
September 15, 2015 at 5:27 pm #827865
JoBParticipantmrSeattle
i notice that you left out both historical perspective and a very important qualifier when you ranted about socialism
When Stalin was spouting off he was still hoping that England would land in his corner.. after all he had invested heavily in making that happen.
Alas for him.. it didn’t turn out that way.
and that qualifier you left out, Bernie Sanders is a democratic socialist. I am linking a definition just in case you don’t know the difference…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism
Bernie isn’t interested in political socialism..
he is interested in economic socialism.. where the worker actually sees return on his/her labor.
it’s a very different animal.
how can you argue with workers making enough to buy the products that keep the 1% afloat?
September 15, 2015 at 6:54 pm #827866
mrseattleMemberOnly a Liberal could take a list of Facts about the results of Socialism and Quotes from one of the Founders of the Ideology and call it a ” Rant ” ?
Socialism is ” Government Control ” not even Lenin or Sanders can argue with that. But, Supposedly the New Sanders crew and the progressive Liberals of this country want us to believe is that ” This time it will be different”
They want us to believe its not the System of Socialism that is the problem but the Evil people running it. Or just the stupid people like Greece .?
In Russia, China, Cuba, Argentina, Cambodia etc… The people in Power weren’t as compassionate and Enlightened as the Elite Demo-socialists are in this country.
This time around the Government will allow itself to be criticized (yeah right) and would never think of restricting the ” Freedom ” of the Press. Which is evident daily with example after example of how Progressives eagerly invite debate and reflect tolerance for differing opinions ( Sarcasm ).
Actually, I will be shocked if I’m not blocked from the WSB very soon.
Progressives are tolerant only if you agree with them. Look at our college campuses. If you are a Conservative they typically won’t allow you to even speak and there activities on campus are restricted by Identifying it as ” Hate Speech “.
In fact, look at Hardcore Conservatives like Jerry Seinfeld and Chris Rock. They refuse to do shows on campus’s anymore because there is NO tolerance for Free Speech anymore
I believe that Bernie Sanders is a Good man and does not intend for any of the Harms of the Socialist system to happen here but he is not the problem. Once you start down this path of Socialism the Government will act like all Governments do which is look out for itself and protect itself from harm via criticism and consolidate more and more power which is a natural function of those that are convinced they are ” Right ” and doing Good.
Basically , Government becomes its own Dictator
and it will go to any length to protect itself from harm so it can continue to grow and spread the “Good” like ALL the Dictators of the past.
Look at the abuses of the Government now in this relatively ” Free” society and imagine how it will act once all dissent is quashed.
Everything the Government touches is Rife with Corruption, Waste and fraud and this is what Progessives and Sanders want to give MORE power too ?
Remember.. Communism is So great that most examples had to build a Wall to keep all those socialist ” Freedom Lovers ” IN. Why ?
Welcome to North Korea.
September 15, 2015 at 7:32 pm #827867
JTBParticipantI am struck that mrseattle eventually settles down into a basic disdain and mistrust of all governments. I find it hugely entertaining that the end result of years of conservative ideologues and politicians cultivating a contempt for government has finally come back to bite them in the form of Donald Trump and Ben Carson. The more married to the system, the less acceptable the GOP candidates are in the eyes of the rank and file. Enjoy!
September 15, 2015 at 7:36 pm #827868
JanSParticipantdon’t feed the trolls…they don’t want to listen to facts re:Democratic Socialism. They only want to hear and spout what they deem as right..not what facts are. And they use terms like “only a liberal”…damn, I’m tired of hearing that as a preface to anything someone wants to pass off as truth, when it’s not.
Rant over. (feeling like crap really makes one cranky)
September 15, 2015 at 7:49 pm #827869
JTBParticipantmrseattle, in reference to your sense of world history and the evils of communism, there were three revolutionary situations in the last half of the 20th Century. Those were in Indonesia in 1965, the French General strike in 1968 and the Prague Spring in 1968. In each instance, mass left wing movements had the potential to overthrow state power and implement a new government.
There is a single common denominator underlying why none of those revolutionary situations progressed into toppling those governments. Do you what that is? Hint, do you know what the Comintern was in the USSR and what roll it played in directing communist parties throughout the world? Do you know what guided the policies of the Comintern?
September 15, 2015 at 8:58 pm #827870
mrseattleMemberMr JTB,
Please tell me your kidding me..? Please ?
We are discussing the Colossal Failure of Socialism over the past 100 years and you bring up a pop quiz on the ” French General Strike & Prague Spring ..?
The Millions and Millions of Oppressed, Murdered Tortured , Re-educated peoples in the Great Social Disasters with names like ..
The Soviet Union, The National German Socialist workers ( Nazi ) party. Cambodia ( Pol Pot ), Cuba ( Castro Cartel ie.. OBama’s new buddy ).
North Korea, China .. on and On.
Basically that list covers too many wars to count, 100 million Deaths from Execution, Torture and just plain disapperence . All ending in Complete undeniable Failure ( Bring up the Positive virtues of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, in there respective countries and see what kind of response you get…? )
Lets not bring up what happened to those that dared to Criticize..?
It is typical of a Socialist to Point to the ” Potential positives of a “Utopian ” Society ( It will be Different THIS time ) while ignoring the facts of past Tragedies combined with the ever present qualities of Human nature ( To work hard & smart to get ahead ) that leads us back into this mess.
Socialism by its very nature requires a surrender of ones Liberties and once that happens the people are usually powerless to stop it from continuing and continuing.
Nice try on using examples like the French General Strike and the Prague Spring ..? Really..?
I would like to use an analogy to Vividly expose your ridiculous arguement but how do we compare the WTO riots to WWII..?
September 15, 2015 at 9:04 pm #827871
anonymeParticipantThe caps say it all.
September 15, 2015 at 11:05 pm #827872
wakefloodParticipantSounds like someone needs to spend some time in the re-education camp to get their “isms” sorted?
September 16, 2015 at 2:02 am #827873
valvashonParticipantWhat strikes me about mrseattle’s rants is how full of grammatical and punctuation errors they are, along with some distortion of the facts and more importantly, omission of information. When you see a rant, post, what have you that looks like that on first glance it almost invariably leans rightward. Those who have a profound ignorance of the facts, both political and basic schooling, most often lean to the conservative side. Those of us who are educated, well spoken and written, have paid attention to what is really happening in the world and reject hysteria and hyperbole.
Aside from being difficult to read, mrseattle’s rants suffer from the omission of the fact that the U.S. government has also caused hundreds of thousands of deaths over the years, from illegal and immoral wars, police and covert actions all over the world. We have not met a civil war we didn’t want to take sides on and if there wasn’t a civil war in a country we were happy to start one. Guatemala, Nicaragua, Grenada, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, etc. To blame Socialism for the deaths caused by Communism and ignore all the deaths caused by our brand of freedom, Democracy and Capitalism is simply intellectually bankrupt.
September 16, 2015 at 2:20 am #827874
JoBParticipantmrseattle
what? that wasn’t a rant?
what about what followed? was that a rant?
because.. and i hesitate to bring this up.. you still haven’t demonstrated that you know the difference between political socialism and the economic realities of democratic socialism.
i know.. i know.. i am a thinker.
it’s a blessing and a curse ;-)
September 16, 2015 at 6:58 am #827875
JanSParticipantand dear Mr. Seattle decided that Sept. 15 was the ideal time for him to join this forum and set us all straight…imagine that.
We should welcome him..
September 16, 2015 at 12:43 pm #827876
JoBParticipanti don’t know why i don’t think to check when people pop in… i guess i count on people like jan to remind me:)
welcome MrSeattle..
i don’t think it matters when someone finally finds they have something to say or how defensive they are when they finally say it…
some of the best conversations and strongest friendships here have occurred because someone finally got fed up enough to post :)
September 16, 2015 at 4:09 pm #827877
JTBParticipantConsidering the various ism’s, Bernie Sanders actually represents a rational attempt to save capitalism (in great part from itself).
Social democratic governments do not nationalize private industries in the same way as the socialist government in France did (briefly). In England, the Labor party nationalized a number of industries but returned most of them to private ownership over time. Nationalization was utilized to salvage financially troubled industries.
Generally, social democratic governments implement tax policies that enable for-profit corporations to function satisfactorily while providing revenue for public services. Some industries that provide worthwhile public service but struggle for profitability may be nationalized—Amtrak would be an example.
We have seen how finance capitalism can easily spin out of control and exert widespread financial and social ruin on industrial and personal economies in it’s pursuit for ever more profit. The Great Recession reached its staggering proportions due in great part to the unwillingness of the investment banking system to restrain itself.
If you set aside the labels and look at what Bernie is proposing—- break up “too big to fail” investment banks (restore Glass Stegall), implement a single payer healthcare system (which will produce huge savings for business and consumers), these are reforms that will restore a more productive economy and enable businesses that create real wealth (versus funny money) to operate more effectively.
While conservatives like to whine about FDR, the fact is his banking reforms and social programs saved the capitalist system at a time when real pro-socialist and pro-communist alternatives were in the public consciousness. But more than prevent a revolution, FDR saved the capitalist system from the capitalists themselves.
I listened to a piece recently that explained how banks do not provide protections against theft to the business customers as they are required to do by law for consumers. So a business that lost $10,000 through a hack was out of luck. One bank spent nearly $1,000,000 in legal fees to get out of having to reimburse a $250,000 loss to a commercial customer. Guess they calculated it was worth that to keep the lid on. My point is that financial capitalism is not particularly beneficial for a promoting a productive economy; not without some practical regulations at least.
Wanna keep the capitalist system around and healthy? Consider the social democrat.
September 16, 2015 at 4:55 pm #827878
wakefloodParticipantQuite so, JTB. As David Simon, creator of The Wire and seasoned observer of American politics said in a speech not long ago, Marx was very adept at pointing out the inevitable implosion and auto-cannibalization that unrestrained capitalism eventually devolves to. Communism’s problem is that it isn’t a workable prescription as an alternative as it lacks a level of pragmatism and operational functionality.
Social Democracy represents a realistic (and proven) policy that keeps the beast chained and fed and allows the rest of society to go about its business of living a reasonable life and pursuit of happiness.
September 16, 2015 at 7:20 pm #827879
JoBParticipantJTB
this popped up on the internet this morning and i think you will find it interesting
it was billed as an evangelical’s response to Bernie’s recent speech
bottom line
“I wouldn’t be much of a Christian if I didn’t stand on the side of gospel for the poor, because, the last time I checked, that’s where my master Jesus stood, and I’ll stand with Him. And, for now, that means I stand with Bernie Sanders.”
September 17, 2015 at 4:38 am #827880
redblackParticipantmister seattle:
i’m a hard-working american hod carrier, and i’m a proud member of laborers’ local 242.
without ever having met you, i feel pretty safe saying that i’m as american as you are. both of my grandfathers served during WWII. both of them were second-generation americans. both of my parents were army brats and civil servants.
me? i love the free market economy – with the caveat that no one should be able buy more constitutional representation than my birth right affords me.
agreed?
i’m just wondering if you understand exactly who it is that has been screwing us over for the past 50 years.
because that is and has been sanders’ message for a long time. and if you think that he wants to start marching people into death chambers for his own personal glory, then i have no choice than to conclude that you’re delusional, and that you haven’t researched the candidate or his policies.
have a great week.
September 17, 2015 at 5:24 pm #827881
JoBParticipantSeptember 17, 2015 at 7:03 pm #827882
anonymeParticipantI’m SO glad rb is back…
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