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August 2, 2008 at 4:04 am #632985
beachdrivegirlParticipantI have seen both the good and the ugly from Unions. but then again I have a mother who was a teacher and had a great union supporting her and working for her rights; however, i was also a farmers daughter and i got to see unions take advantage of their rights (the farmers) by over supporting and having unrealistic expectations for the farmers employees.. It is interesting to hear peoples experiences with them; however, although i have seen my moms great experiences, due to the fact that negative experiences stick more in my head i have to say that unions need a few more regulations …due to the the fact that they (the unions) get a bit over zealous (sp) at times.
August 2, 2008 at 4:47 am #632986
JoBParticipantthe history of unions in the united states makes for interesting reading.
people literally died for the work rights that we take for granted today…
you may have grown up in a time when the abuse of power became the prevailing story about unions.. but that isn’t their whole history….
even within my lifetime unions have made an incredible difference in working conditions…. as well as in pay and benefits.
before you make judgments… do a little reading on pre-union working conditions… and ask yourself if you really want to do without the benefits of collective bargaining in the workplace.
August 2, 2008 at 7:05 am #632987
AnonymousInactiveJoB – You are incorrectly assuming that I have NOT done any reading on pre-union working conditions and a lot of reading on unions in general.
My feelings on the subject are exactly the same.
August 2, 2008 at 1:28 pm #632988
JoBParticipantthen all i can say New Resident is that it is a good thing that you are not in the majority..
for your sake as well as that of the rest of us poor working slobs.
worker’s rights were hard won… and are rapidly eroding… which you would know had you been in the work force as long as some of us.
this has coincided with the success at weakening unions. and if today’s weakened union is the only union you have known, i can understand why you think they don’t do much for you.
However, in your industry you should care about work rules since the guys in the pilot seats don’t have the same protection in the number of hours they are on the job (including the time in between flights) that they once had… due to a real effort to bust their union.
tired pilots make mistakes.. and that at least is a working condition you ought to care about… as should all of us. The planes are not yet so automated a monkey could fly them… you still want an alert pilot at in the cockpit if something goes wrong.
and you probably will want any pension you earn…
August 3, 2008 at 4:56 pm #632989
beachdrivegirlParticipanti understand that unions were good when they first began and that they did do a ton for workers rights etc.
However, just b/c something started out as good, does not mean that it is good for us today.
However, although some small union representing on company could be a good thing. The bigger unions that are the big players today are hurting the industries more than they are helping because of the corruption that goes on within them and the regulation and legislation that they have created.
I think our country has come far enough with minimum wage etc that Unions potentially could hurt some workers. Think about a minimum wage worker who gets a new job and has to actually pay $200-300 to join a union … doesn’t seem right to me. Furthermore, I don’t like that that workers that go on strike (with the union) can not be fired. if they have a legitimate reason for striking of course the company isn’t going to fire them, but if it is an illegitimate reason for striking then the company will easily be able to find a replacement worker. I think it is outragious that Unions are able to monopolize employers like that.
August 3, 2008 at 6:43 pm #632990
charlabobParticipantif they have a legitimate reason for striking of course the company isn’t going to fire them,
UM, BDG — what ar you talking about here? They can find scabs no matter what the reason for the strike, and do. I agree that unions have often been on the wrong side of issues – usually when they build big buildings and their management climbs in corporation beds. SEIU, for reasons that eluded many of us, got in bed with Walmart — one of their main organizing targets — and now where are they?
Costco is an example of a non-union company that doesn’t need one. As a result, the market constantly berates them because, though they’re hugely profitable, they could make more if they didn’t give benefits to part timers, pay roughly double the minimum wage and, generally, behave as part of the community.
I find NR’s opinion especially sad — she’s in an industry where the unions bent over backwards and forwards to accommodate management and were betrayed at every turn.
I leave it to Ken and JoB to do the research here–I’m tired of posting supportihg evidence which is ignored.
BTW, historically and today, workers are fired for organizing a union — or does that come under the heading of “an illegitimate reason.”
August 3, 2008 at 10:35 pm #632991
AnonymousInactive“I find NR’s opinion especially sad — she’s in an industry where the unions bent over backwards and forwards to accommodate management and were betrayed at every turn.”
charlabob – I would be curious to read anything that supports this statement.
Please share.
August 4, 2008 at 1:36 am #632992
MrJTMemberLooks like an opinion is not good enough here any longer.
August 4, 2008 at 3:42 am #632993
AnonymousInactiveWell, MrJT, if you are gonna accuse an entity of betrayal, you oughta be able be able to back it up, wouldn’t you think?
And, remember, this an industry I, personally, have a lot of first hand knowledge about. I have absolutely no idea what this mystery betrayal is and would like it revealed.
charlabob?
August 4, 2008 at 4:12 am #632994
MrJTMemberI’m fine with everything that Charlabob say.
August 4, 2008 at 5:17 am #632995
AnonymousInactiveI know for a lot of people that just because someone says something, that makes it so and that makes it right, but I’m not one of those people.
I like things backed up – especially accusations.
August 4, 2008 at 5:18 am #632996
c@lbobMemberNow NR, Charla is very upfront that she is the jab to my right cross, so stop with the taunting, OK?
You don’t know what she is talking about when she cites airline unions bending over backwards with concessions? You don’t remember the IAM giving up 24% in negotiated pay increases to Northwest? The mechanics ended up making less than 14% more than they did in 1993, a ten year period where the cost of living increased 34 to 40%
Then there are Northwest’s flight attendants. The attendants, evidently believing the same balderdash spouted here about big, bad unions, had decided to leave the Teamsters and start their own union, the Professional Flight Attendants Association – it sounded so much better than “unionâ€, ugh. Well, the PFAA promptly lost their members 20.7 % in overall pay reductions, not to mention the loss of $2.75 per hour in international pay.
This is all due to a labor attack strategy used by the airlines termed “New Concessionary Bargaining”.
The old concessionary barging was most prevalent in the 1980s in the auto and airline industries. Then, the companies sang the blues to the unions that, if they didn’t give back some of the benefits won in previous negotiations, they would have to close a plant, shut down routes, or some such cataclysm. In those dear dead days, the labor leaders were given a fig leaf to take to their members, that they’d get the benefits back when times were better. They didn’t.
The New Concessionary bargaining there is no quid-pro-quo even implied. The unions must take if or leave it, and they take it in order to, at least, preserve a contract and some guarantees of benefit increases, even if they pale to past ones.
See “Airline Negotiations and the New Concessionary Bargaining” by Gary Chanson, Journal of Labor Research, September, 2007.
Some cynics suggest that the employers are engineering their bankruptcy situations, knowing that politicians won’t allow them to go under, even if the rank-and-file union members would. Meaning the airlines are using setups in the financial statements to get even more draconian limitations on unions into law than already exist. I’m one of these cynics.
August 4, 2008 at 5:30 am #632997
AnonymousInactiveYou’re actually questioning the fragility of the airline industry in todays day and age?
Do you not believe that fuel costs are around 150 a barrel (maybe more since my last email update)? Airlines that have not hedged their fuel and have nowhere else to turn to cover these costs (after charging for checked luggage, pillows and blankets, sodas and now water) are going bankrupt!
That is not some ploy by the airlines, that is reality.
I never “taunted” charla, btw. I simply asked for more information.
August 4, 2008 at 6:09 am #632998
JoBParticipantNew Resident…
I’m not even going to wade in on this one since Catlbob did such a good job of the documentation that you asked for..
although he did overlook the changes in work rules that almost all airline unions have given as concessions.. changes which mean that flying employees spend far more hours in a single day than they used to… creating tired attendants and pilots.
and you chose to ignore it.
United bankrupted.. their employees lost their pensions… then the bankruptcy judge ok’d massive bonuses to the management for so effectively cutting costs.
they cut those costs by eliminating the liability of employee pensions.
Yes, fuel prices are going up.. and that is hard on the airlines…
but restructuring to eliminate their legal obligations to their employees and then rewarding the management for doing so goes a lot further than just cutting costs.
and if you buy it.. you deserve what will happen to any benefits you think you have earned if your airline decides to further cut costs.
August 4, 2008 at 6:13 am #632999
JoBParticipantNew Resident,
BTW. this is what catlbob may have been referring to when he said that you taunted charlabob..
“I know for a lot of people that just because someone says something, that makes it so and that makes it right, but I’m not one of those people.
I like things backed up – especially accusations.”
August 4, 2008 at 6:53 am #633000
charlabobParticipantThanks to Mr. JT, JoB, and, of course, Catlbob for the research.
The problem is the airlines began this attempt to get worker give-backs long before the gas prices soared. One thing I admire about the airline workers is, for the most part, they’ve stuck together — that is another hallmark of unions — it’s called solidarity, as opposed to “divide and conquer.”
August 4, 2008 at 9:31 am #633001
JoBParticipantcharlabob,
they didn’t stick together long enough. When Continental “folded” it took those employees a long time and a lot of concessions to get new jobs… and in my opinion it broke the back of the major airline unions…
continental bankrupted to break it’s unions.. united to break it’s pensions… what’s next?
August 4, 2008 at 1:11 pm #633002
MagpieParticipantI worked for a company that was/is a pretty good company where the union members decertified it the union and became non union. I was in management and we weren’t allowed to even mention the union around our employees during that time period (very strict NLRB rules). The frustration that I had with the union was that they could keep my staff from working if they didn’t pay their dues.
At the same time, I can think of many bad companies that it would help to Unionize as they treat their employees like crap. I guess the bottom line is that ultimately, it all comes down to $.
I interviewed at Qwest for a management job back about 7 years ago. The person who interviewed me asked if I had ever worked in a union shop because the staff I would be managing was union and “they all cheated”. Wow, I came home and prayed that I didn’t get the job because I couldn’t believe that anyone would actually say that in an interview..I ultimately chocked it down to the interviewer as they never even bothered to call or write that I didn’t get the job.
As far as airlines/unions going bankrupt..as long as we don’t want to pay fair market value for flying, they have to do something to keep their shareholder value up. (Ultimately, it is all about shareholder value……..)
August 4, 2008 at 4:27 pm #633003
JoBParticipantMagpie…
you hit the nail on the head… it’s not about employment any more… it’s not about service.. it’s about shareholder value.. and as long as businesses are in business primarily to cater to shareholder value… employees need all the protection they can get.
August 4, 2008 at 4:37 pm #633004
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