resources for challenging dogs

[JoB]

We are the roommates of two shiba inus (smallest of the japanese spitz) rescue dogs. We rescued them within a week of one another nearly a year ago, not realizing our lives would include moving cross country before they were fully trained and socialized and quite frankly underestimating the challenges of the breed.

We make progress. We have them in training.. both puppy classes and in home work.

But both humans and dogs need some friends who are struggling with the same issues.

so i am looking for other people who have taken on some of our more challenging four legged friends. We are looking for play dates (they need to learn how to play nicely with others.. ), resources and perhaps a bit of mutual training assistance and support.

Any other dog people out there crazy enough to take on some of our more boisterous and/or troubled four legged friends?

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[flowerpetal]

Its not in West Seattle, but we found the best classes at Family Dog Center in Kent (but nearer to South Center). There website is familydogonline.com

I would shy away from having your pups fraternize with other naughty dogs. Perhaps well mannered dogs would give a better example. I know that Family Dog Center recommends doing individualized training with dogs when a household has more than one. The other should be kenneled up, or in the house and not a distraction.

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[JimmyG]

Keep in mind that off-leash dog parks and play dates aren’t a good idea for the majority of dogs.

You want your dog to think of you as it’s pack leader, not other dogs. And you don’t want them to see other dogs as fun and play, you should be the provider of their fun and play. You want them to look to you.

I’m not saying you, but way too many use the off leash parks and doggie play dates as a guilt free way of getting their dog exercise and “socialization”.

Dogs don’t need dogs outside their own pack to lead full happy lives. As flowerpetal says the last thing your sometimes naughty dogs is to be around other naughty dogs.

Outside of your dogs needing to know how to calmly and safely greet a strange dog, they don’t need playdates with other dogs that aren’t going to be members of their own pack.

Good luck, my rescued dogs have tried my patience many a time.

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[flowerpetal]

Well put JimmyG!

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[JimmyG]

Thanks flowerpetal, I take it we’ll never run into each other at the off-leash park, huh?

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[flowerpetal]

Your right about that! My dog is an alpha; she would get nothing out of going to the dog park because she would feel it to be her duty to “correct” other dogs’ behaviours.

Besides, one of our neighbor’s dog had a nasty bout with Giardia a few weeks ago; most likely picked up at the dog park.

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[JoB]

Jimmy G and Flowerpetal, thanks for the input.

You are 100% right, it is important for the dogs to think of us as the leader of their pack.. and they do.

If you could be a fly on the wall in our home, you would wonder what i am fussing about. I have great well behaved dogs who look to us for everything. They even come when they are called which for this breed is amazing. They know all of their basic commands and most of the time, they obey them.

If only i wanted to stay home alone all of the time, they would be nearly perfect dogs.

However, we think it might be fun to go out into public with our dogs or to have people in. This is where things get a little problematic.

I am not so concerned about them having fun with other dogs as them getting to a point where it is not a hassle to walk them past another dog.

Right now, they both want to meet other dogs and cry piteously when they are restrained. One doesn’t know how (and is in class… i can’t recommend Jeff at Sound Animals enough) and the other sniffs fine but then tries to establish dominance too quickly.

And this is when they are being walked alone. When together, they make a terrible fuss and then attack one another.. like two kids fighting over who gets to say hi first.

Shibas are noisy when they act out. They make tremendous mean sounding noise with their lips curled back and hair raising which surprisingly enough scares off other dog owners before they can be corrected and have positive interaction.

I don’t blame the other owners one bit… these are ferocious sounding dogs… it just makes it difficult to expose them to other dogs and train them.

Right now i couldn’t take them to a dog park even if i wanted to… and i am not sure i do. However, they have successfully had other dogs visit in their backyard.

Resources are hard to find. Finding a trainer that would allow these dogs into a dog class was not easy.

Stella Ruffingtons has been incredible with grooming (my boy has to be muzzled to have his nails cut) but they certainly can’t stay there for daycare or overnight boarding.

I finally found a vet who understands the breed, but she is in DesMoine. I would love to find someone closer.

I found one kennel that would take them for boarding (in Monroe), but am concerned about their sanitation and won’t go back. right now they are going to the vet’s for boarding. not ideal.

I am exploring Shiba groups… there is a Seattle group that holds play dates once a month.. but they are mostly puppies.

i found a shiba rescue organization in Portland but again that’s pretty far.

And being newcomers, we don’t have friends who are dog friendly to drop by and ring the doorbell or sit over tea while the dog gets time out for misbehavior and learns that it is good behavior or banishment.

I hired a dog walker and now have someone coming in as a training partner and that helps, but it is slow progress.

I have always had rescue dogs, including an abused Akita… these two are simply the most challenging i have encountered… Yuki’s nickname when he first came to us was Cujo and it was well deserved. He’s not Cujo now, but his behavior is certainly aggressive enough at times to frighten even experienced dog handlers.

Don’t get me wrong, these are good dogs. They play together well. (They sometimes sound like they are going to kill one another when playing, but there is never blood drawn.) They eat within a foot of one another and don’t fight over food. They are leash trained. They are both affectionate with people they know.

They just need the kind of socialization they didn’t get in loving homes… and at two/three it is harder to find than when they are puppies.

We are doing our best to create an environment for them where they can learn those skills… and that will take other people and other dogs.

In the meantime, i am teaching them to like muzzles so they can be out in parts of the world where it is a little more crowded.

I agree that rescue dogs can be pretty trying, but they sure do steal into your heart.

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[Robindianne]

JoB,

We have a shiba and a mutt. They are good walking together or alone until (yep) we see another dog. We walk all around West Seattle, Lincoln Park, etc and have no problems except for their barking incessantly when we see other dogs.

Our shiba gets his nails dremmilled (sp?) at Petco while we talk to him and pet him. We had basic dog training there as well, and our pup did fine but it wasn’t his turf so he didn’t need to get territorial. (The trainer is who dremmils him)

I want a good trainer as well, just to get him to stop chasing our cats when they run (he’s fine if they remain calm – but, you know, they are cats and don’t really always respond when I ask them kindly to remain calm :) and stop eating the furniture, books, etc.

We don’t go to off leash parks because he’s a runner when his leash is off. He comes back but just on his own time. We use a harness for him and a gentle leader face harness for our mutt (runs for squirrels).

I don’t really have advice but we are really pet friendly so I wanted to give you a response :) and a “bravo” for your rescue efforts. We didn’t exactly rescue Gizmo but he’d been in 3 homes and we babysat him while he was in his 3rd and when they couldn’t take care of him, he became ours. He sleeps with us every night and we just love him! (and our Sadie mutt too of course)

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[Ken]

For those unfamiliar with the breed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiba_Inu#Temperament

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[Ken]

Two of our three current dogs, and many over the years, came to us because their owners could not keep or handle them or they could not find pet friendly housing. One was found as a 3 month old puppy wandering a mall parking lot.

That does not qualify as rescue exactly but I do understand the challenges of fixing both learned and strong instinctual behavior.

Non of ours would win any obedience contest but they mostly come when called and adjust to visiting dogs and fosters.

The Husky is the alpha through all visits mainly because of the thick neck ruff which larger dogs think is a good target. It’s not.

Good luck in your qwest.

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[JoB]

Robindianne,

i think my husband and i met you one night down in the junction with your two four legged friends.

we have someone coming by tomorrow who is involved with rescue shibas and runs the shiba meet-up site.

I will let you know if she has any words of wisdom. I sure hope so:)

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[JoB]

Ken,

thanks for the empathy and for linking to wikipedia on the shibas. i didn’t think to do that.

I don’t think i have ever had a dog that wasn’t rescue… one way or another. And of these two, only one was from an actual rescue organization. the other came to us from an internet posting by the local pound which would only take him to put him down.

His progress is amazing. And i am going to let a stranger into my house tomorrow without muzzling my dog. That’s amazing. We will see.

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[Anonymous]

JoB – I have a 8 to 9 year old shelter Shiba. Besides being the most unique breed I have ever encountered, she was obviously abused as a pup. I have worked with her this entire time and continue to do so, yet she still thinks I’m going to hit her every time I approach to pet. It took almost 2 years to be able to touch her tail without being bitten. She wasn’t even a year when we got her, so it seems the imprinting on her little psyche is deep and permanent. Because Shibas don’t respond like other dogs, I think in the wrong hands they are often abused. Some people want strict obedience, which is certainly not their strong suit.

Like you though, I love her to pieces. She’s extremely loyal, very affectionate on her terms, and just a riot when she’s playing. To me she seems much more like a cat. Very independent. Responds when she’s good and well ready. Little spurts of energy, where she jumps from furniture to furniture at a hundred miles per hour and races through the house or yard.

Her social skills on a leash are exactly as you describe however. She’s either completely indifferent or wants to challenge every dog she meets. Doesn’t matter if they’re ten pounds or a hundred. We’ve learned to let her have about a 2 second sniff and then snap her back to attention and walk briskly. After this many years and trying every possible method of training, I’m pretty sure what you see is what you get.

With people she’s strange also. On walks she’s not the least bit interested whether it’s a stranger or someone we know. Then at home, she’s all protective and will bark and growl and show her teeth to a stranger until we say it’s “okay”. Then if it’s a repair person or something she’ll just walk away like she’s bored to tears, but if it’s a friend or family member she goes nuts with squealing and delight.

Don’t know if this is encouraging or discouraging that you’re not alone, but you may end up having to accept your Shibas the way they are. I do know I don’t regret for a minute having this little strange creature in my life.

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[JoB]

JT. i can’t thank you enough for your post. The shiba person who came over wasn’t exactly encouraging… and the shiba rescue organization wasn’t much more help.

We have come to the same conclusions you have.. that our little shibas may never be able to be the type of dogs we have had in the past.

We can touch both of ours.. in fact, even the most abused has become a little snuggle bunny… but on his own terms of course… like a cat.

it would be easier to have just one… but which one? so we are going to step up individual training instead of separating them.

I am still looking for help with the people thing though for the more abused little fellow.

I am told more training will help.. so we will see. Our desperation has passed…

so now it’s just time to get on with things and find what kind of relationship we will be able to have with these two and the world.

it is good to know someone else understands why we can’t just put them down.

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[Anonymous]

JoB – I forgot to add that I would be happy to talk/help you in person if that’s something you’re still looking for since I’m not at all afraid to be exposed to your dogs. Not exactly sure how to make that happen though cuz I don’t want to put contact info on here.

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[JoB]

just contact the webmaster through her contacts page and i will email her asking her to give you contact info.

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[Robindianne]

JoB, I hope you and your pups are doing well. Was your shiba person bad? Maybe there is someone else out there. I’m trying to get my shiba to mind better and got a list of trainer / behaviorist names from my vet. I’ll let you know what I find out if you want.

Robin

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[JoB]

Robindianne… the shiba person who came by wasn’t really helpful. there is someone the shiba community recommeds… Diane Rich.

i am still looking.

In the meantime, i found a great dog book “Dog Problems” by Carol Lea Benjamin… even has a pic of a shiba on the cover tho the shiba pictured doesn’t seem to be mentioned.

please.. let me know what you find.

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[JoB]

Robin Rich is at Spokesdog.com

this is the other training center where the shiba rescue folks take problem dogs

Packworks .

Gretchen Schumaker and Michael Schmidt

425-870-7533

http://www.packworks.org

Robin Rick is described as “espensive but worth it” and she will come to your home. the other benefit is that she does board dogs she has worked with.

Packworks will also come to your home.. but they specialize in creating environments to challenge your dog.

i think that is where i am going next.

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[JoB]

i just spoke with Gretchen Schumaker at Packworks.

She has worked with Shibas before and knows the breed well.

they have a rate for training two dogs together (your pack) that is reasonable.

You will spend about two hours with them the first time and come home with some viable solutions to problems and she said it is possible that you will be able to solve your problems with one session.

i iwll let you know how it goes.

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[Robindianne]

Thanks for all your thoughts and ideas. I sure wish you well. I wish I knew dogs better and could be of help to you as well.

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[JoB]

you and JT have been a lot of help just by sharing.

Great dogs, but some days i am just overwhelmed.

i really think i have finally found someplace that can help tho.. so I am optimistic:) She understood exactly what i was talking about… and has worked with shibas in similar circumstances.

I don’t expect instant results, but i will finally be getting an accurate assessment of the problems and some probable solutions… with both dogs.

I have to say, Jeff Tinsley of Sound Animals has been incredibly supportive and helpful… And for class structured support, i can’t recommend him enough. He was also great when he came to the house.

you learn something new each step of the way. maybe i will end up the local shiba expert:) these two are certainly making sure i learn a lot.

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[JoB]

for anyone dealing with an agressive dog… but shiba owners in particular… i can’t recommend this trainer enough.

Packworks .

Gretchen Schumaker and Michael Schmidt

425-870-7533

http://www.packworks.org

They start with a thorough assessment of your animal(s) in what will seem slightly eccentric controlled circumstances with observations they share as they make them.

This is not like any other dog training experience you have ever had.

Their methods are simple.. and you will have heard some of this before.. but you will never have been given the understanding about what makes your dog do what it is doing and how you might short circuit that behavior quite this way.

You will come away with work to do.. but you will understand exactly what you need to do for your dog and why after completing just one two hour session.

And you will discover things about your dog that you didn’t know. I guarantee it.

i thought i was a great trainer.. and i am pretty good… but they saw things i hadn’t seen and just those things have made a tremendous difference in the way we are handling our dogs.

I won’t tell you that it is safe to come to my house yet:) Yuki is still very people aggressive…(i don’t need to worry about a security system with him on the job) but he is making progress. In time he might even be able to tolerate having you in the room:)

And mochi (the dog aggressive one) has nearly stopped lunging at other dogs.

The pack leadership issues have been straightened out between us and the dogs… and between them. We have a much more peaceful home.

As a shiba owner, i can certify that these people understand shibas.. but i came away with the haunting suspicion that no matter what breed i had brought them, i would have felt the same.

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[Anonymous]

Have you thought about trying Seattle DogWorks on Capitol Hill? Here is the info:

info@seattledogs.com

1417 10th AVE, #2 SEATTLE WA 98122

206.919.8105

Hope it helps!

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[JoB]

seattle dog works doesn’t take aggressive dogs. (any dog who has bitten). i did call them.

they take “problem” dogs.. those who are out of control (don’t mind their owners) .. but not aggressive dogs.

in fact, most places don’t. So those of us with those dogs are left with few options.

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[Author]

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