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September 30, 2011 at 1:36 pm #735023
redblackParticipantyou know, i think i’m going to become a teacher. then i’ll teach your kids to be politically correct and that having three mommies and a horse for parents is okay. i’ll go home to my lavish palace every night and smoke hash. after having careless sex with strangers, i’ll use my taxpayer-funded cadillac health care plan for an abortion. and i won’t show up for work for a month afterward, because my job is secured by my strong-arm union-enforced tenure.
oh, wait. i don’t have a uterus. scratch that.
you know, kootch, the teacher’s union doesn’t write the curriculum in any school district in this country.
the private testing companies do.
worried about public school education and america’s rank in global education? get rid of the standardized tests.
like i’ve insinuated in other threads, republicans can either try to work in good faith to fix the problem in a reasonable manner, or they can talk a long walk off a short pier. when you start negotiations from the standpoint of tearing down the entire system and slashing people’s wages and benefits the other side gets entrenched and angry.
the union isn’t even the damned issue here, kootch. the curriculum is. but i suspect you find it easier to bash liberals than to go up against the testing corporations.
pretty cowardly, in my opinion.
September 30, 2011 at 1:40 pm #735024
redblackParticipanthey, by the way…
should education be a business?
if it is, i’d like to remove the churches’ tax-exempt status.
September 30, 2011 at 2:11 pm #735025
kootchmanMemberredblack..go for that degree..you could use it. . Curriculum is determined by school boards. BUT if you watched the video..what you will see… how refreshing.. good teachers at Charter schools can select their own texts..and design their own curriculum. How about that? The are given objectives, year end expectations, and then meet them. They get merit pay! The highest paid teachers in Oakland? Charter school teachers! Not increases for sitting on their asses for years. Again.. watch the video..listen to your great teachers unions spout drivel. Watch them threaten to strike unless they get a 6 hour, 40 minute work day and compare themselves to the private sector. “Not a busines one minute, a business the next”… depends. If it isn’t a business… they why do they even have unions? All the rest of the world takes standardized tests. That which is not counted..doesn’t count. Unions HATE standards because they can’t meet them and are held accountable. Note again…I said I support increased pay for teachers… for merit. If unions are not the problem… then why do PUBLIC charter schools do better? Watch the video dude… watch the video. Even you have to pass “wrench/bond” standards after laying up those bricks. SATs count dude.. all the other school systems in the world seem to be fine with being measured. Public educations is a failure..why not admit it, and get to fixing it? It seems private education IS growing… because public education is failing. Bury your head in shame dude…you would rather doom generations of kids to dismal futures than fix it and scrutinize the role of unions in preserving mediocrity…. like the clip says.. “American don’t know what they don’t know… bingo!
September 30, 2011 at 2:23 pm #735026
kootchmanMemberNYC.. 2 teacher dismissals out of 80,000 educators in one year. Even McDonalds fires more per year for incompetency. Six years to dismiss a teacher for propositioning a 15 year old girl for oral, anal, sex…on the school computer system… and he admitted it.. the e-mails were there for all to see… six years. I never suspected you would support such an agenda…but by your post..I suppose you would. You better believe public education is a multi-billion dollar business. Church tax exemption revoked in exchange for a non-unionized civil service? You don’t like parochial schools because the HS’s routinely kick PS butts in SATs… with a non-union work force.
September 30, 2011 at 2:54 pm #735027
JoBParticipantkootchman…
i didn’t have to watch a video kootch.
i assisted a friend who helped start a charter school a decade ago…
i know what charter schools are…
and i also know that unless the provide a service for the local school district.. in this case providing educational access for those kids labeled “special needs” they do drain off resources from the local school district…
this one provided an alternative learning environment for ADD and autistic kids.
do you really think a video you found is the be all end all of the discussion kootch?
would it amaze you to know that some of us have looked far deeper into this subject with a more objective eye than that of one video that was produced to create only one conclusion?
your rants against teachers are emblematic of your assessment of the issues facing our public the school system.
your end goal.. busting unions and public subsidization of private religious school systems.
If you want to compare apples to apples kootch…
why don’t you look at the Texas school system where the unbridled charter school systems have had time to accrue some actual stats on their effect on public education.
The truth is that you aren’t intereted in educating all children. Your choice of quote from the Belgian school teacher illustrates that. You don’t think all children should be educated.
you think that public money should be spent to subsidize the school systems of a selected few.
And btw Kootch.. that 60% figure you threw out for foreign students in our universities is fairly recent… and coincides with the economic downturn that has pushed the debt load of most graduates beyond serviceability.
You did realize that the political agenda you promote would further reduce the number of American students in our advanced educational systems by eliminating student grants and restricting student loans.. didn’t you?
Your end goal is transparent.
Please stop trying to sell an illusion.
September 30, 2011 at 3:45 pm #735028
kootchmanMemberNope… you presume fact not in evidence. The public school system is failing. Argue that? By every measure and standard recognized as legitimate. Charter schools are public schools. Many, increase resources because they accomplish the education mission at a lower cost. Yes, it would amaze me. Other than throwing more money at a system that in inflation adjusted dollars, has doubled its funding, Seattle being particularly generous, there will be no public action until the PS system gets the message, it’s intolerable. I rest on the issue. In the end the voters will decide, as they always do. You can remain secure in defending the status quo. But then again, you have no current children in school who are at risk, I presume. I already educate all the children…as all taxpayers do. I think the results speak for themselves.
September 30, 2011 at 4:48 pm #735029
kootchmanMemberYea… this is what it is like to be a student in todays HS….. bullying from teachers. What a petty man…. Someone should just knock him on his wizened, old, bitter ass.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/29/vacaville-students-lost-2_n_987930.html?ncid=webmail8
September 30, 2011 at 5:58 pm #735030
JoBParticipantOctober 1, 2011 at 1:43 am #735031
kootchmanMemberWell, I am not a taxpayer of Texas. What should I look at? And the purpose of what I am looking for? Are you reciprocating and looking at the video?
October 1, 2011 at 1:55 am #735032
kootchmanMemberI “suspect” that their will be a statistically significant correlation by number of hispanics within the general population. I could find out by delving into the PEW Hispanic Center data base.. they may even break it down by county. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Central American and Mexican populations underperform at every education level. There are some very dismal statts contained therein.. Cubans (FL) and second generation Puerto Ricans (NY) break the “latino” curve though and while not faring as well as Asians and Whites, do better then latino populations as a whole. What data do you wish me to glean?
October 1, 2011 at 1:59 am #735033
kootchmanMember• Regional dispersion. One-third of Mexicans (36%) live in California,
and one-in-four (25%) live in Texas
Pew Hispanic Center
October 1, 2011 at 2:12 am #735034
redblackParticipantsee, kootch, the problem with corporate standardized tests is that profit is the motive for passing students. not merit.
it’s the free market economy at work.
again, teachers’ unions don’t write the curriculum. they simply guarantee that teachers make good money and benefits for their efforts.
typical right wing blather, though, to find a few examples of bad behavior, then throw the baby out with the bathwater. less resistance that way, huh?
October 1, 2011 at 2:55 am #735035
kootchmanMemberFirst after the “fever” of corporate testing subsides… SAT, ACT etc.. have predictive values for colleges. Are you kidding? A “few” examples? Where have you been hiding dude.. we rate at the BOTTOM of the industrialized world… 25th in the world… that is a “few” to you? NO improvement in over 30 years… the entire country.. the lowest SAT scores in 40 years… those are not a few stats.. that is called a persistant trend. Nothing in the free economy would tolerate sub par earnings, declining market share, for over a year let alone four decades. BTY…. the most successful curriculums ARE written by teachers…teachers are freed to find the methods and instruction techniques that best fit their class..they are treated as professionals. The better the outcome..the higher the pay… MERIT pay…it stimulates the creative teachers.. in Charter Schools. SAT doesn’t give a hoot if the students pass or fail….if they did what would justify falling test scores?. Your logic is sooo not there dude. You make no sense. The customers for ACT and SAT are the colleges that use them to evaluate the probability of success… if they did not offer accurate predictive values…the colleges would not use them. Watch the video dude… watch the video. It won’t hurt one little bit to go a wee bit out of the old rigid leftwing doctrinaire… hell I watch your favorite pinheads from time to time… Keith Obermann and Lawrence O’Donnell.. Heck … I can even dig up a Charlie Rose show for ya… if, as you say, passing students is “for profit” who exactly is “profiting”? … every Seattle PS classroom represents a $250,000 check to the school district from the taxpayer…. where does it all go? I can tell ya. Put it to the the test… attach 7800 to every student… they can spend it at the school of their choice… if PS educations is sooooo good, they should retain their students right? You know and I know those kids and parents will look like scurrying rats getting off a sinking ship. Education is not immune to atrophy… it too needs innovation…. I never see teachers striking for that… nope.. just more money, smaller classes (more union dues) less class time, better benefits… and NO accountability for results.
October 1, 2011 at 4:48 pm #735036
redblackParticipantyeah, and a corporation trying to teach all kids – with all of their various problems and proclivities – the same things in the same way and expecting them to answer each question the same way or face having his or her education wrecked by some minimum-wage flunkie test scorer is a reflexive education system.
then some bureaucratic auditor says, “well, crap! looky here! this school and its teachers can’t teach to our test! there must be something wrong with this school!” and bingo! funding gets threatened. teachers get insulted and have their pay cut.
the ironic thing is, the reason you hate public schools and their low performance compared to private and charter schools is because someone started making a profit from education and testing.
“who’s profiting?” you ask.
i’m surprised you don’t know this, since you have kids.
WASL was replaced with the measurement of student progress (MSP) for grades 3-8, and the high school proficiency exam (HSPE). then there’s the washington alternate assessment system (WAAS) for special needs students.
the scoring contractor is data recognition corporation. apparently those tests are written by bright education testing services, inc. but the state is moving to online testing this spring, to be administered by computerized assessments & learning.
some funny and tragic reading regarding testing, NCLB, and teach-to-the-test, written by a teacher and a test scorer:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/07/953476/-Notice-to-All-Banker-Types-from-a-Teacher
Teacher Merit Pay: Why Test Scores Shouldn’t Dictate Salaries
October 2, 2011 at 7:46 am #735037
kootchmanMemberYes… well redblack… if you will recall… the WASL was designed by the state of WA… ooops! Another darn fact.
And I quote:
(http://www.education.com/reference/article/Ref_Frequently_about/?page=2)
5. Who writes the WASL test questions?
Washington educators helped build the WASL and continue to refine it. They review every question for content quality and its relation to the state’s learning standards.
Did ya read that redblack?
That is until the kiddies all flunked it… then they trashed it. HSPE is a very very dumbed own version of WASL..They did that too to SAT it was called “repegging”…
I will read your links dude… knowing they are written by and for teachers and teachers unions…. sigh. The entire world takes the IEA…. except the USA… we tried it once…five states passed… you guessed it… the NEA said no more! There is of course the PISA… Program for International Student Assessment.. now why don’t we take that as currently 39 countries do? NEA says no way no how… so I have to dig in the old wallet to have it privately administered. The profit is in these new creations of having to sculpt tests to meet the lowered expectations of literacy in this country… we are too dumb to take PISA is the short and sweet of it. So we have to create “self esteem affirming tests” that educators and teachers can say yahoo… we are doing great. Why not just take PISA? We did… my critters aren’t going to find the source/origin of time..or the grand unifying theory of quantum mechanics.. but they will do just fine. I can safely and confidently say that they have nothing to fear from Singapore, Sweden, Germany, France, Belgium, Japan… in fact, may even find an economic future there if need be,
Now Messsr redblack… I will read your links… though I have some trepidation I am going to be NEA’d…. I at least offer a more entertaining video… but read them I will. Will you watch “Stupid in America”…. there is some value in listening to the actual teachers who get merit pay….and how they do so. ? Fair exchange? You are intractable enough… it won;t change you that much.
October 2, 2011 at 8:43 am #735038
kootchmanMemberI read all but the link to Teacher Merit Pay… the link won;t connect.
The others relate to corporations who assess and train…. I saw no underlying message, I take proficiency exams all the time, You bet I use study guides and aids. Testing my friend is part of the great big world. We all do it, I even had to use a study guide and aids to get Coast Guard Master certified… there wasn’t enough information in The Old Man and The Sea.. used a private company.
Of more importance…did ya note the help wanted? DRC has job openings… see all those BS and higher for system analysts, programmers, …? Cause the unemployment rate for those cats is less than 4.8 per cent…. that my friend says it all. Even “just” a HS education is less than 9.2 per cent… the rest, the huge bulge in all this suffering? The kids who walked away from the PS system and judged it crap.
The teacher to bank… well one thing I can assure you he/she knows nothing about banking. One glaring omission of course being, she was not not making assessments relative to others performance, i,e the deposits on hand… that was not relative to the deposits on hand of other depositors. So, there is no way to compare the performance of a bank relative to the status of other banks or even if such a depositor base exists. I grant there are select and special teaching skills. But, I also know there are as many parents out there with as good or better educations. Parents who have the acuity to know a good education from a bad one, This in not the same populace of 40 years ago where a BA or MA was a rare thing and parents bought the BS…line from a “more intelligent” class… these are trade unions… and most professionals would rather contract herpes than belong to one.
Just tell me this, simply. The facts are, we pay more, have one of the most lenient work schedules, and grant tenure before a teacher can even demonstrate competency. These are facts. So why do we rate in the bottom quartile in the industrialized world in student achievement? Simple question … why can’t Johnny read? Fritz can, Gerhardt can, Marie’ can, Sebastiano can, and their teachers have less resources, teach longer hours and have larger classes?
As soon as I can get the link up… I will read why merit pay is not acceptable only to the teaching industry… or any union work force. God Bless America dude… I LOVE merit pay… the more incentive the harder I work.
October 2, 2011 at 8:48 am #735039
kootchmanMemberredblack… re post the line on merit pay… it’s a dead one.
October 2, 2011 at 3:28 pm #735040
JoBParticipantLOL kootch…
did you just blame the failure of the Texas school system on people of South American descent?
it has nothing to do with taking money from the public schools those students attend and moving it to charter and private schools?
get a grip…
as for that two year “fake it” stuff… so you could slide till retirement?
i’d like to see you last two days in a public school classroom.
fake it indeed.
I don’t know what you’re drinking these days kootch…
but whatever it is
maybe you should cut back.
i am told that even caffeine can rattle the brain.
October 2, 2011 at 4:41 pm #735041
redblackParticipanthttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-farley/teacher-merit-pay_b_800119.html
“intractable?” heh. says the pot to the kettle.
from your link:
It doesn’t matter what the average score on the test is or whether some drivers scored above or below you. What matters is whether you can show you have the driving skills and knowledge of traffic laws to “meet the standard” and get a license.
that right there is why teaching to standardized corporate tests won’t allow america to compete.
but there is no more WASL, and teachers no longer write or score the tests.
nor did the teachers’ unions push for NCLB or the washington ERL. they don’t like teaching to the test. and not because it’s more work. because it gets poor results.
so why can’t johnny read? (you forgot to mention veejay, samir, tran, and hideo, btw.) my opinion is that he’s self-absorbed, self-entitled, distracted, and spoiled due to the culture he lives in. he’s more interested in bling than knowledge of the universe. in a consumer-driven society, his parents are willing to buy him whatever he needs to compete instead of making sure that he comprehends.
another possibility is that his family is so poor that he has to work after school. or he’s distracted by hunger. or he’s a part-time criminal. maybe he sells ecstasy to suburban johnny.
if we’re going to fix it, we need to raise per capita spending on education instead of cutting teachers’ pay, driving good people out of education, and increasing class sizes. we need to improve the funding stream, too, so that it’s not solely carried by property taxes.
we need to recognize that one size does not fit all. using rigid standards isn’t the answer. teachers need the flexibility and resources to be able to recognize individual strengths and weaknesses in their students, and they need to change strategies accordingly.
so here are my ideas: by law, states have to meet standards set by NCLB. fine. but get rid of these damned testing companies – and with them, their fees for doing us the “favor” of evaluating our students. charge the school boards, the PTA, individual parents, and teachers with writing those tests, and codify it. maybe throw some tradesmen, college professors, judges, and business leaders in there if they want to put in $.02 about what kids need to compete in the world. (it takes a village, right?) on test day, get volunteer students, TA’s, and professors from local universities to help score them, and give the students incentive to do so by way of class credits.
and, in my opinion, we need to get trade unions into our schools on career day. let kids know that building things isn’t just for poor people and immigrants, and that there’s a lot of honor in that.
frankly, though, i don’t think conservatives care that much about education; caring about other people’s success is anathema to their world view. they don’t care about teachers; why do they claim to care about students? to them, it’s merely about cost. they claim our budget is broken because we’re spending too much on education, and they’re holding students’ proficiency and teachers’ paychecks hostage in order to get their taxes reduced. they’re all about the costs to them, personally.
reality: school boards are the ones who grant all of these concessions you complain about when they negotiate with teachers’ unions. don’t like the contract? get new negotiators. it’s not illegal to fire teachers who don’t perform, nor does it violate contracts. the simple fact is that school boards simply choose not to fight those battles – for example, laying of the most recently-hired teachers first, instead of veterans who don’t perform as well.
then there’s empirical evidence: the gulf coast states have very few unionized teachers. according to your logic, they should be outperforming new york, illinois, and california. but that isn’t the case.
is it even remotely possible, in your opinion, that poverty has a negative effect on education? and that increases in poverty exacerbate the problem?
October 2, 2011 at 5:14 pm #735042
JoBParticipantredblack…
“reality: school boards are the ones who grant all of these concessions you complain about when they negotiate with teachers’ unions. don’t like the contract? get new negotiators.”
couldn’t have said it better myself :)
October 3, 2011 at 2:04 am #735043
kootchmanMemberHow about this… you REALLY need to see the video portion on how NYC goes about firing teachers… there is no friggin way possible given the union contract… let’s see.. 80,000 teachers.. only two fired for incompetency? Dude it took six years to terminate a sexaul predator..and hundreds of thousands in legal bills..exactly what the union intended. …HUH? How about teachers, act like professionals… the very definition of a professional is they are not unionized. How about a principal firing on the spot an incompetent..as the executive in charge of the school he should have that authority. Yes, again, poverty ha an effect… if you look at the Charter schools in Harlem and Oakland… the best performing schools are the in the poorest districts. Especially watch the Oakland teacher… the highest scoring school, …is the most impoverished. Charter school dude… free work rules, teachers creating their own curriculum, getting merit pay… and they LOVE teaching there.
That’s like telling a patient that to remove a wart on finger… you have to take off an arm. Look at the NYC flow chart… the flow chart that is over 30 feet long to dismiss an incompetent teacher.
How about …. making WA not a mandatory union state? Optional? There are only 19 states left with compulsory union representation… yep WA is one. redblack… did you watch any of the video? dude? C’mon be a school hero… I will pop for a shopping cart of pens, paper, etc… support your local schools!
October 3, 2011 at 4:55 am #735044
JoBParticipantKootch…
all you can see is unions and union contracts..
you seem incapable of seeing the debt on capital improvements
the administrative abuses
the decisions not to fund materials and textbooks
all good teachers who are still teaching are doing so because they love teaching
they sure aren’t doing it for the money or benefits any more…
October 3, 2011 at 7:01 am #735045
kootchmanMemberThe money is fine. An almost part time job? ALL is as ridiculous as EVERY… some teach because it is benefit loaded. It has more days off than any private sector job. We have updated and invested a lot in capital improvements, but those my friend do not come from the operating budget. Those were voter approved initiatives. They are for better or worse, fixed costs to the old taxpayer. They are finite, defined, and time limited.
Sometimes ya just have to call bull______ !
“collective bargaining costs associated with principal and teacher contracts raised expenses $8.6 million for the coming school year. And pensions will cost about $2.4 million above projected revenue.”
Finne points out that Seattle Public Schools has millions in reserve funds — and a funding level that outpaces other Washington state school districts.
“Seattle school district is the richest in our state, and so really, for them to be crying poverty is simply not true,” she said.
Finne added: “I’d like to see people tell it straight to the public. I think the public deserves better treatment.
Or this little gem of liberal corruption…
http://www.kuow.washington.edu/program.php?id=22746
75% of the State General Education fund is allocated to… teacher and staff salary.
Just cause ya hear it, over and over and it fits your paradigm..just doesn’t make it true. Ya know what I notice a LOT… facts are inconvenient, and there are many who just flat out refuse to do the research. Every source, from the Heritage Foundation, to the WEA will put their agenda forth… directed neither at truth or thoughtful discourse. I am a Libertarian with some blemish… I can be convinced of thought modification…. on this issue, I am so for decentralized, autonomous, teacher excellence.. I hope they can rise to the intellectual achievement their education would support. But… they can’t. They have two great hurdles..union protections of the worst, the longest serving, and a school board system that is driven by politics. I say give charter schools a fair chance Let the principals decide how that 275K per classroom are allocated to get the best results… and damn .. if there is a teacher who can take 26 kids to the top 10% … who uses his or her ingenuity, love of the profession, and creativity… I will be the first to champion a 100K compensation. The status quo as it is ? The ones that don’t move the needle… 40K is too much. Get rid of them. There has to be room to allow attempts at innovation…. or we get more of what we have 40 years of flat and declining test scores, and increased drop out rates. C/mon we have forty years of failure…
October 3, 2011 at 7:20 am #735046
kootchmanMemberI give you this gem… I would get 40-60 pimply faced boot camp grads. Some were dumb as rocks… but not my call. God (Commandant of the Marine Corps) said he needed those artillary or mortar men.. and he needed them in 8 weeks. Little did they know, they would be doing trig.. and we never mentioned the word. Now, I could adhere to the training schedule.. but trust me…god would not get his quota. So … if it took 18 hour days, peer mentoring, visual aids, after dinner remedial help..hand holding, foot in the ass, cajoling, hell phone calls to their mothers…. I never failed to deliver…not once. Now… I made E-6 in 18 months… a rarity in combat arms MOS’s… (from E-4)..and left as an E-7 GY/Sgt ..after six years… five pay grades were meritorious promotions. Most of my peers..got their time in grade promotions… E-4, E-5’s…. merit pay … not seniority. Lo and behold, I found the same to be true in the private sector.. unions fight like hell to refuse motivational option.
October 3, 2011 at 4:02 pm #735047
JoBParticipantkootch…
you think teaching is an almost part time job?
and you base this on what?
the hours teachers are required to spend in classrooms?
have you added in the hours required for administrative meetings?
What about the hours required to grade homework?
what about the hours spent mentoring students?
What about the hours required to supervise social and sports programs at the school?
what about the hours required for continuing education .. not for promotion but simply to keep your job?
it is very clear to me that you have never stood close enough to a teacher to realize just what their work day or work year entails…
“So … if it took 18 hour days, peer mentoring, visual aids, after dinner remedial help..hand holding, foot in the ass, cajoling, hell phone calls to their mothers…. I never failed to deliver…not once.”
how is it you didn’t learn more about the reality of teaching from this experience?
do you really think it takes any less commitment to teach kids?
teaching is no more a part time position than owning your own business.
however.. the payoff has a lot more to do with personal satisfaction than with money.
And the reality of those paychecks..
unless they teach in the inner city or suburban decay or rural America…
teachers can’t afford to live in the school districts in which they teach..
but hey..
as long as you think they do all right with their part time jobs it’s ok :(
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