OUTRAGED!!!! “Teen appreciation day” is a cover for ARMY and NAVY recruiters.

[daniellep]

*Southwest community center, 2801 SW Thistle in West Seattle is

supposed to be holding a “teen appreciation day” for spring break today.

I dropped my 13 year old and his 3 same aged friends off for a day of

advertised basketball, swimming, music, and a bbq. What I immediately

saw when I got there when was 2 ARMY recruiters in full ARMY attire,

shining their big black hummer. Just pulling in were 3 NAVY recruiters.

THIS IS INFURIATING! Now I see first hand how the government preys on

inner city youth.* Please call and complain. 206-684-7422.

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[WSB]

We’re heading out to see if the Hummer’s still there. Not sure if this is against city policy but we’ll check.

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[WSB]

Update: got pix of Hummer and also kids playing basketball at the Army’s inflatable display outside behind SWCC. Have a message out to Parks & Rec regarding policy on this. I’ve seen this kind of setup at various events, from Bite of Seattle to the Puyallup Fair, fwiw, but given the controversy that has erupted over recruiters at Seattle public schools, for example, the policy question is interesting. Will likely post something later on the home page depending on what we find out — TR, WSB editor

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[Jeannie]

Also, while I support our armed forces, as I’m sure we all do, I find the “doublespeak” that the recruiters and the military (and, of course, Mr. Bush) deploy very disturbing. Are they so ashamed of what they do that they have to disguise it in euphemisms? Let’s hope our teenagers use some critical-thinking skills here and not let themselves be duped.

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[TheHouse]

I don’t have any facts, so I’m simply going on what is written above.

daniellep, even if military recruiters are on site at SW Community Center your response that the government preys on inner city youth is IGNORANT. I will admit that a community center is an odd place for recruiters to recruit, but I would say that there are dozens of worse messages that could be sent besides a military career.

Perhaps you should be a bit more passionate about the drug dealers, prostitution and other crime around the area than our military simply recruiting.

Don’t forget that as a parent, you should be educating your kids as to what their career options are and also what to say YES and NO to.

I support and thank all of the men and women in the military for their service whether they are fighting in Iraq or recruiting at the SW Community Center.

Stop freakin’….Call Beacon.

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[JoB]

House,

This has nothing to do with supporting the troops.

This has to do with possible unadvertised recruitment masquerading as entertainment.

If you think that recruiters don’t hit the inner city youth proportionately harder than other youth… using less defined tactics.. you are sadly mistaken.

Many of their recruiting promises are misleading at best. Who do you think has taken the brunt of every war?

Parents have a right to be concerned no matter what their children are exposed to. Being misled by recruiters is no more right than being misled by any other group.

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[Anonymous]

It’s funny because, given the chance to do it all over again, I would have joined the military when I was younger. I would have loved to be in the Air Force.

As House said, there are worse things a kid could learn about. I never knew that was an option, but it is and it’s not a bad one, in my opinion.

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[JoB]

Nobody says the military is a bad option…

but promising kids bonuses they can’t possible earn is not a fair recruiting tactic.

promising kids they will be entering a training program that will lead to future employment that recruiters know is not likely to happen is not a fair recruiting tactic.

And i know for a fact both of those things happen a lot.

They have happened to kids i know.

lets be real..

there are 4000+ of our servicemen and women who won’t be enjoying the future training their military recruiters promised them… That number doesn’t include those who have died as a result of non-battle injuries or suicide or those whose future earning potential will be greatly reduced due to catastrophic injury… we are looking at nearly double the 4000 affected…and that number is only rising.

I am not saying the military shouldn’t recruit..

but i do agree that a recreation day at the local community center… without prior notification for the parents of minors … is probably not the most reasonable option.

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[Anonymous]

JoB – I do have to point out that almost over half the people I work with were in the military and today have great careers making great money (well above industry standard) and that’s just one company. Most commercial pilots are former (or reserves) military.

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[walfredo]

NewRes- I don’t think the argument here is, or at least it shouldn’t be, that the military is bad. The argument is that, the military should not be stealth recruiting pre-teen and early teenagers with shiny cars and empty promises.

A commitment of military service, especially at this time of ongoing war and uncertainty, is both noble and brave, in fact it is many great things. What it is not, is some “cool” game, like a camp with fancy toys.

I happen to think that if a community event is going to be a full on recruitment fair, it should be required to be billed as one, and should take no one attending by suprise…

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[Ken]

I grew up next to one of the largest military bases on the planet. I still rarely hear helicopters unless I notice other people looking up. I can tell the caliber of most small arms and artillery by sound. I worked on the flight line of an air force base during the Vietnam war.

I have no problem with those who choose the military as a career. I have 16 uncles who are vets from WWII to Korea. I lost track of the cousins in various branches long ago. Nearly a hundred classmates from my graduating class were killed in Vietnam. (My high school was named after a regiment in the Scottish Highlanders)

However.

My recently retired brother in law was a recruiter and the top “retention specialist” for his division in Iraq.

I have seen the half truths and outright lies he used to make his quota. I have seen the DVD his office produced conflating Saddam and 9-11 with pictures of Iraq and the WTC fading in and out between each other. He thought invading Iraq was a great idea since it increased chances for his promotion.

He still has no idea that he had anything to do with the deaths of those who did not live long enough to spend their re-up bonus. He is incapable of understanding those who are concerned with such things. That makes him good at his job. That does not make him a good judge of the situation outside his own head.

I have also seen the shameful way this country has failed both the active duty and national guard veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan. Especially those injured in combat or accidents in both countries.

If they could recruit without lying or minimizing the very real dangers and would offset the volunteer service with a real GI Bill that offered real educational and lifetime family health care benefits to those who choose to risk their lives for the rest of us, then I might not find the current subterfuge practiced by recruiters so despicable.

The knee jerk anti military hatred so many around here feel is mildly annoying to embarrassing at times but most active duty understand that actual freedom of speech and the “right to peaceably assemble to petition for the redress of grievances” happen to be parts of that constitution they enlisted to protect.

Finally, the patriot act forced federal funds to be tied to schools opening their doors to recruiters. That is a school district issue.

The parks department cannot deny facilities rental to the US military any more than they could deny rental to any other locally unpopular organization. If they could the Republicans would have had to hold their caucus in VFW hall.

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[WSB]

BTW I am still waiting for a response from the Parks Department. I don’t know how much recruiting was going on, but certainly the presence mentioned by the original post’er was there … with the Hummer and the basketball setup out back — TR

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[beachdrivegirl]

Does it normally take the parks department this long to get back to you?

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[Ken]

Note to NR

You will notice the Air Force only has to do halfhearted recruiting via overproduced commercials. They turn away more than they take (or did in peacetime). The Army and Marines need the young, the strong, and the ignorant, to break and remold into soldiers. If they survive long enough, the military can change the ignorant through training if they have a need, but it is not required anymore if they can separate them when they can no longer carry a weapon and a pack.

Fixing the ignorant after leaving the military does not seem to be of interest to conservatives at the moment.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-22&tab=summary

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[JoB]

i am definately not anti-military.

i just think that recruiting promises ought to be part of an enforceable contract…

That GI benefits should be available to every soldier…

And that recruiting should always be done with the full consent of parents of minors.

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[Anonymous]

You all make great points. Ken, you obviously speak from experience, however, I believe choosing to join the armed forces is an honorably decision, one that, I was only pointing out, I wish had been an option for me. Letting teenagers know of all options available to them is great. If you disagree with their principles, isn’t that what parenting is for? You talk to your kids and make sure they understand the sacrifice, the truths and non-truths(as you say).

I would be extremely proud if my daughter chose to join.

I don’t understand your link, Ken. It is talking about a bill to amend title 38 which provides educational assistance to all armed forces. What is your opinion about that link?

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[Ken]

NR

McCain has refused to sign on as a co sponsor as has every Republican except Hagel, Collins and Snowe.

I think it is a small start on the situation. We can either have national service for all, of which military can be one of the choices, or we can have an all volunteer force that is not treated as “at-will” employees to be thrown away when no longer useful. There are many dangerous jobs but the current military is being decimated by officer resignations and early retirement as well as abuse of the national guard and reserve system for an elective war any student of history would have recognized as foolish and counter productive.

When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier.

— Rudyard Kipling

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[SomeGuy]

Plagiarized from another source. Google it.

Military service IS dangerous, for sure. But let’s keep things in perspective here. Consider for a moment these death statistics:

104

153

307

800

905

3,000

5,800

43,000

Ok, so now you’ve looked at those numbers and are guessing how 50,000+ people died right?

104 Timber Cutters die every year. Considering that there are less than 100,000 people in this profession, that number is alarmingly high. Actually it’s the most dangerous job in the United States.

153 Police officers die every year, on average.

307 Farmers and Ranchers die every year. This one surprised me at first; but considering all the different equipment they use, it’s not really surprising.

800 people die every year riding a BICYCLE!

905 Sales people die every year. Most of them work at gas stations and convenience stores.

3,000 College students die EVERY YEAR. Note that college kills almost 4 times as many people as OIF does. These are alcohol related and drug related deaths as well as suicides.

5,800 Pedestrians die every year. Who knew that just walking across the street could be so dangerous?

43,000 People die in auto accidents every year. Forty three THOUSAND! That is a lot of people. That means that 1 in every 5,000 people who drive will die in a car accident every year! On a side not, car accidents result in about 90,000 mutilating injuries a year as well. Somebody in the United States dies in a car crash every 12 minutes. There is also a disabling injury every 14 seconds.

What’s my point in all this? It’s simple. If you want to throw around numbers to make things look alarming, you can. Fact of the matter is that you can make anything look like a “deathtrap.” Military service is dangerous, I’m not denying that. But everything we do in life has risks, and much of what we do in life is dangerous. When you put things into perspective Military service isn’t nearly as dangerous as you’d like to make it out to be.

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[JoB]

I knew waking across the street was dangerous.

i knew driving a car was dangerous.

I knew riding a bike was dangerous.

We all know working in a convenience store is dangerous.

I even knew college students do very stupid things.

The rest doesn’t surprise me. My step dad was a logger and my brother is a cop. I grew up in a wheat farming community.

What do any of those statistics have to do with the desire to have parents notified when they are going to drop off their minor teenagers at a local community center for a teen appreciation day event that includes military recruiters?

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[TheHouse]

You rock, SomeGuy!! You’re right on point.

JoB, I spoke to military recruiters at 16 and 17 years old but for some reason didn’t go into the military. Kids talk to people about many things (drugs, sex, etc)…speaking with a military recruiter is not that bad.

I’ll also remind you that it is your liberal way of thinking that allows military recruiters, Gay and Lesbian groups or the KKK to set up shop at a community center….if you ban military, then other groups could be banned as well. Chew on that and Toodles!

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[Anonymous]

I haven’t heard anyone in favor of banning. I haven’t heard anyone against the military or a career in the military. Why is that what you hear? A parent wants to know in advance what is being promoted to their kids. I would call that responsible parenting and I’m surprised you don’t agree.

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[charlabob]

Thank you, JT. I was about to launch a tirade against the red herrings being dragged across the path of the original question. You did it in four simple lines. Now I can just launch a short tirade.

Beyond the obvious responsibility of parents to know what’s being pitched to their kids, I have to repeat another point, thoroughly and eloquently made by both JoB and Ken and carefully avoided by the other side.

Recruiters Lie and the people they most frequenly lie TO are naive kids who don’t have many other options. The recruiters have quotas to meet, bonuses to get, and they lie. Simple–elegant–and very sad.

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[Jeannie]

Nice to group the KKK and gay/lesbian groups in the same sentence, House. Rush Limbaugh would be proud.

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[walfredo]

Some guy, while your starts are exciting- the really point out a more general trend in our society then military service.

Americans, and largely through the persuasion of government, and specifically this administration-are guided by fear. They are made to be fearful of things that play a very small role in the actual dangers they face day to day. For example, Islamic-terrorist attacks on US soil are almost a non-existent cause of death. Yet, many people see that to be a greater threat then almost all others to there safety. Even more interesting, is that polling suggests that the people in middle-America the heartland the “red states”, by significant margins are more concerned about this threat then people in large coastal areas, areas that all of the previous attacks have centered on. The fear card is very powerful, our current president ran an ad with a bunch of wolves circling around a helpless pack- suggesting he was the only one who could keep the wolves away, the only one who wouldn’t let the “dangerous outsiders” kill you and your family… The truth is, that the same person who ran that ad, has gone out of his way to make this country less safe for you and your family in every possible way. From the tragic Iraq debacle, and the generations of youth who will be inspired to hate you and your children, to the ungodly sums of money wasted. The jobs report today showed 80,000 lost jobs in March, these very real economic conditions have a much higher impact on your safety in regards to crime rate, drug addiction, general public health…

As far as the military not being that dangerous- well 4000 out of 150,000 have died in Iraq- that is close to 3%, on top of that there are more then 35,000 causalties- that is close to 25%… The tens of thousands with lost limbs, lifetime scars, and permanent disabilities should not be forgotten in any analysis of danger and bravery…

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[JoB]

i find it telling that it is a liberal who mentions the bravery of our troops.

Contrary to popular opinion, liberals support the troops… we just don’t support the war or the escalation of unreasonable fear.

Fear of casualties isn’t the issue here.

The issue is unfair recruiting practices and the need for parental notification.

i don’t think those who feel a lack of need for parental notification regarding military recruiters would feel the same about parental notification if the group setting up at the local community center on a teen appreciation day was planned parenthood.

And yet, planned parenthood promotes safe sex, std education and papiloma inoculation… all of which actually save the lives of our children.

Signing up for military service can have deadly consequences…. and recruiters routinely lie about placement to possible recruits to minimize those very real consequences.

The group they lie to the most are those with the least options and the highest probability of ending up in a war zone with a gun in their hands.

They dangle job training in front of those minors who are unlikely to leave the military with any training other than how to kill efficiently.

What do we think happens to those same kids when they get home and are untrained for any kind of job? That is, if they get home.

The casualties from any war are inflicted on this one small segment of our population far more than they are on any other.

The more educated a child is, the less likely they are to choose the military as a career option, especially in time of war.

There are of course, exceptions to that rule… the children of idealistic families are those who actually join to defend their country.

And recruiters lie to them too.

My nephew is currently serving in a very different capacity than he envisioned. Being an intelligent young man, he has taken the best of the options offered to him and will come out of his military service with a solid job skill.

However, he is one of those kids who had options to begin with… and the intelligence and skill sets to take advantage of those options.

And his military service was a clear choice… having little to do with recruiter’s promises.

If we can’t man our military any other way than deceiving those we recruit, perhaps it is time to reconsider our options.

Perhaps all of our citizens should have to perform some sort of national service… with the military being one of the options… and money for further education being the bonus.

Who knows, with a choice between the military and building infrastructure… or working in our poorest neighborhoods… or volunteering in nursing homes… the military might be far more attractive.

If the draft during the Vietnam War had been a true national draft without so many loopholes for privileged children… we wouldn’t have so many people in power today who chose not to serve… yet feel qualified to overrule the military in making decisions about war.

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