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October 10, 2011 at 8:09 pm #736270
JanSParticipantthe way I see it, I asked a simple question…and you gave a convoluted answer that didn’t really address the question. The Repubs in congress argue and argue that we have to give tax breaks to these companies because the are the “job creators”, that their way is to stimulate the economy by letting the companies keep more of their money. Are they right or wrong? No supply and demand story will address that. Are the Ryans, Boehners, Cantors of the world right or wrong?
October 10, 2011 at 8:14 pm #736271
BostonmanMemberI am glad that is the way you see it, of course its still through the eyes of a biased mind. You asked a question that can’t be answered with a simple right or wrong. I am sorry you didn’t get the answer you wanted which ultimitly is the only thing that will satisfy you.
The correct answer is probably someplace in the middle. When the economy turns around these big companies will be the ones hiring and providing jobs.
October 10, 2011 at 8:18 pm #736272
BostonmanMemberLOL Paul Krugman. Thats your article. I might as well post something from some right wing blog. Not worth my time.
October 10, 2011 at 8:45 pm #736273
kootchmanMemberJan that may be the very essence of the argument, you ask simple questions,, and want simple answers for complex questions. Questions have history and context. Jingoisms suffice for serious thought. You call it convolutions, I call it complexities You want the answers the the big questions on your morning cereal box. Good luck on that.
October 10, 2011 at 8:45 pm #736274
JanSParticipantOctober 10, 2011 at 9:01 pm #736275
BostonmanMemberDo you think the economy won’t turn around? Maybe 9% unemployment is the norm and 4% was optimistic. Who knows. Of course I am hopeful. I am an optimistic person. I am cautius though. If it doesn’t turn around then we will have much larger problems.
October 10, 2011 at 9:02 pm #736276
kootchmanMemberElkipedia I have heard not one conservative, no Tea Party, Republican call any first responder a union thug, Ever. Either urban myth or I just wasn’t on that train. Now, the Longview incident was thuggery. There are thugs in the Sheriff and Seattle Police departments. Millions in settlements and legal bills and court decisions will attest to that. Itis appalling the police guild shield that protects them. Arrests were made, lawsuits filed, video documented. I said, in context, that labor unions were opposed by the labor movement, FDR, and a litany of scholarly and populist not so scholarly work. There was a time when the target of liberals included gross violations of civil rights. We are one of the few cities that allow the Police Guild to dictate the terms disciplinary hearings, procedures for dismissal for malfeasance, by-passing any civilian control either by civilian review board or executive discretions. The same conditions exist in the school system. No public accountability, they dictate the entire procedure of evaluations, correction, compensation with a willing democratic party apparatus. Even The Messiah promised expansion of charter schools. We all know the public school system is failing .. but we will stand by and demagogue the issue to death… it’s easier than reform.
October 10, 2011 at 9:14 pm #736277
TDeParticipantSo let me get this straight… The protesters are hypocrites because they’d take a corporate job in a minute if offered to them, although none are being offered because:
Corporations are not hiring and sitting on Trillions in cash. And you would do exactly the same thing? Sort of a “Let them eat cake” mentality with “I got mine, you get yours” kind of thing?
And you’re OK with that, because the answers to the questions we’re asking are just too complex for our simple little minds to handle? Really boys? Can you get more arrogant?
Maybe this time will be different.. we’ll see. If you read history though, you will note that it’s very rare for human beings to allow any arrogant wealthy class to rule and take from others indefinitely. Usually, there’s revolt at some point. Who do you think is over turning the wealthy rulers of Middle East countries? Young, educated, unemployed or underemployed people.
Stick around… keep it up. History is not on your side.
October 10, 2011 at 9:15 pm #736278
kootchmanMemberGlad to see that research Jan…
All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service – FDR
and if you want to see his letter to the AFL
Source: Hearings of U.S. House Committee on Education, 1972, page 543
October 10, 2011 at 9:20 pm #736279
kootchmanMember“Necessitous men are not free men.” … indeed. On so many levels that is true. So why the rush to be one?
If the protest was credible, where is the Occupy Pennsylvania Avenue? Two willing partners both looking for their sheep. Ont too big to fail, the other, too big to control.
“The securities and investment industry is Obama’s second largest source of bundlers, after lawyers, at least 56 individuals have raised at least $8.9 million for his campaign,” Massie Ritsch wrote in a Sept. 18, 2008 entry on the Center for Responsive Politics’s
By the end of Barack Obama’s 2008 campaign, executives and others connected with Wall Street firms, such as Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Citigroup, UBS AG, JPMorgan Chase, and Morgan Stanley, poured nearly $15.8 million into his coffers.”
An examination of the numbers shows that Obama took in $421,242 in campaign contributions in 2008 from Bank of America’s executives, PACs and employees.
October 10, 2011 at 9:45 pm #736280
TDeParticipant“With primary election season in full swing, BofA’s PAC has about $846,000 in its coffers. And it has already contributed about $336,500 to congressional candidates since the 2010 election period began on Jan. 1 2009.
Of that, 57 percent has gone to Republican campaigns.
What’s your point? All corporations donate to their perceived self-interests in the political ring. Some years it’s Dems, some years Repubs.
October 10, 2011 at 10:10 pm #736281
JanSParticipantummm…the protest has moved on to DC…if the media would cover it the way they covered the protests in the 60’s we’d know this by now. Yes, it needs to be taken to DC…but not just to the White House. Congress enacts things…and they ain’t getting it done. They are elitist, have no clue as to what’s going on in the country. They (Cantor) refer to these groups as mobs, and just want them eliminated…they don’t have the balls to really get to work on the problem. That’s where the argument needs to go.
Do you really think that we’re naive enough to call Obama “our Messiah”? Think again. There are plenty of us disillusioned with the way things have gone…we just don’t agree with you on the solutions. It was “Yes, WE can, not Yes, HE can”…get it straight :D
October 10, 2011 at 11:55 pm #736282
BostonmanMemberYou seriously compared living in the middle east to the united states? That is laughable. The fact is these people don’t represent 99%. They maybe represent 1% of the population in how they feel. That 1% will never overthrow the government which is what your trying to compare.
Your mad because corporations are sitting on billions and not boosting your standard of living? Give me a break. Corporations don’t need to provide you with anything. They can hold onto that money for as long as they want. They don’t need to give raises, distribute dividends, donate to charity or do anything else with it they don’t want to do. Plus those earnings are taxes twice.
Yes I know blah blah blah they don’t pay taxes, which is also not true. They may not pay US income taxes but they do pay taxes. If you don’t like the fact they don’t pay taxes then get a big enough voice and change the tax code.
Wow, I just went back to my original arguement that sitting around and protesting the fact that companies have cash won’t get you anywhere. Start with something simple.
October 11, 2011 at 12:53 am #736283
kootchmanMemberIt means TDe… the obvious. I don’t expect relief from the thief who held the ladder for the thief who came in through the window, The UAW can look after itself. 8 year old kids needing a good education can’t. Wall street is loaded with Ivy Leaguers, they can look out for themselves. I will give the “Street” credit.. they are pragmatic. The offer cash. We get ‘promises” that hopefully someone else will pay for. And it works.. over and over and over again. Bman is right. The tax code is a 50 year biography of influence peddling. That would be step one and a major step. “We”… ? yea, right. You are as welcome to that party as a parent observing a PS classroom. The “we” is in effect during the campaign. Where is The Messiah this week? Out looking for money.. two fund raisers in just Tampa. Those are his and every other politicians agenda for the next year. That and slathering pork out there…
October 11, 2011 at 1:04 am #736284
kootchmanMemberBMan.. It is perfectly fine with the shareholder for corporations to keep those retained earning right where they are or aren’t. If they come home and get hit with a corporate income tax.. poof.. they disappear into the great maw.. the investor watches his asset lose almost 40 per cent of value before one dime in dividends is paid for. Bring home the money at full post foreign tax value.., THEN the stockholders will demand their dividend… and that is taxable income. You can’t convince anyone on this thread that the 1 trillion Apple has in retained offshore earnings in not theirs to keep. They don’t want to hear Apple paid taxes in all those countries that allowed Apple products in their markets. If you all want those trillions…you can get them. Here;s how… invest in those companies and assume the risks.
October 11, 2011 at 1:09 am #736285
TDeParticipantYou are 100% correct! Large corporations CAN do absolutely anything they want and that’s why people are not so happy with them anymore. Especially those young, educated kids who don’t have viable jobs. So they are protesting… not trying to overthrow the government, for god’s sake. You are seriously over-reaching and trying to escalate a point into something it’s not.
They are just trying to make their voices heard over the arrogant politicians of this nation who mostly only listen to wealth and power.
And they only represent about 1% of this nation? I don’t think so.
http://www.rbj.net/article.asp?aID=187266
No one on the blog is saying the wealthy and large corporations don’t pay taxes… again an attempt to escalate. They just don’t pay the same percentage of their incomes as the rest of us.
“Few Sympathize With Upper-Income Americans, Corporations on Taxes”
http://www.gallup.com/poll/147152/Americans-Split-Whether-Taxes-High.aspx
etc., etc.
October 11, 2011 at 1:21 am #736286
kootchmanMemberSure “few sympathize”…. how intoxicating and mesmerizing it is to offer the majority the minority. Flat tax. Everyone. Corporate regimes rise and fall on discontent. Imagine… Steve Jobs make history on the graphic user interface… rejected by Xerox as a useless concept. Apple is the largest market cap company in the world. Use “Occupy” to network… find your soul mates of business philosopjy..make or do something insanely great… but you might have to start in a garage, or barn,…. not at 75k plus
October 11, 2011 at 1:23 am #736287
JanSParticipantTDe…it’s fruitless to argue..there are those who will simply feel that they know more than you, that they are the only right people, and that they just want to point out what a simpleton you are..in terms that are condescending, sarcastic, belittling, demeaning…anything to make it seem like theirs is the only answer.
I remember the “silent majority”…well now, the tides are turned, and the majority is finally making itself heard. If the posters on here belittling the “movement” were so unconcerned about it, claiming it will do nothing, is just a flash in the pan, etc., why all the arguing about it? You think we don’t get it? We think you don’t get it…ahh…ain’t freedom great?
October 11, 2011 at 1:32 am #736288
kootchmanMemberright on… so beyond tax the rich …. what cogent offerings are there? Caligula would have loved ya to death….. open the gates, throw em a few loaves of bread, and let gladitorial blood flow.
October 11, 2011 at 1:41 am #736289
JanSParticipanthey, go ahead and be as sarcastic as you want to be, my friend. You’ve become very good at it when your more cogent points get scarce. When you have no argument, simply make fun of the other person…you won’t change how I feel about things…and I know ain’t no one good enough to change how you feel about things, since you are all knowing..
October 11, 2011 at 2:17 am #736290
kootchmanMemberYou are probably right. I am entrenched. I do not lack argument though. This is the Somme of political discourse. My trench or yours..? Trenches they both be.
October 11, 2011 at 2:28 am #736291
JanSParticipantOctober 11, 2011 at 2:42 am #736292
TDeParticipantTons of ideas out there, Mr. K. Flat tax might be a good option. Sell off some gov’t property. Let Congress take a pay reduction – watch em scream. :) Institute a national lottery. Legalize Marijuana and tax the heck out of it as well as institute a tax on churches that preach politics. Place a higher federal tax on hard liquor. Get our troops out of Afghanistan. I’m really gonna hear screaming with those last four. :) And here’s a big one. Get people back to work so they can also pay taxes. Other, earlier threads have brought up good ideas as well.
You’re right JanS. Arguing is pointless, but it feels good to express opinions and frustrations sometimes, so kudos to the Blog for providing a place for that. I just happened to have a rare day off. And more than that, I tend to get my back up when young people try to do something about problems and get sarcasm, scorn and “give it up, it’ll never work statements.” At least they are trying and I’m heartened to see that more and more people of all ages are stepping in to back them up.
So… back to work, to pay a higher percentage of my income in taxes than many large corporations. And I don’t mind all that much as long as all Americans pay fairly.
October 11, 2011 at 2:45 am #736293
JanSParticipantTDe..a suggestion has been made to reduce the pay of Congresspersons to the minimum wage…and then see if anything changes…
October 11, 2011 at 3:22 am #736294
TDeParticipantExcellent idea! We could give them incentive pay for actually accomplishing something.
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