Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Occupy Seattle!
- This topic is empty.
-
AuthorPosts
-
October 9, 2011 at 1:31 am #736220
kootchmanMemberUh huh… let’s watch the scramble. Fast as hell we can watch all the special interests try and “shape” the message for the protestors.
October 9, 2011 at 2:20 am #736221
JoBParticipantOctober 9, 2011 at 2:35 am #736222
kootchmanMemberNo JoB you know exactly who…labor unions, Democrats, MSNBC … etc. The liberals would like the eyes not to be cast on the willing enabler of Wall Street… like I said…. from a generation where only 2 out of 5 can correctly identify the three branches of government…I suspect their overall understanding of how this force hit them, and who are the culpable. !% vs 99% per cent fits them. simple easy to understand, requires no thought, and really no energy required. It’s got a good beat, easy to dance to… give it a 9 out of ten. Hey, maybe if the weather gets crappy..the mayor will open the library for them?!!
October 9, 2011 at 10:16 am #736223
JanSParticipantClass Warfare … “We have this fantasy that our interests and the interests of the super rich are the same. Like somehow the rich will eventually get so full that they’ll explode. And the candy will rain down on the rest of us. Like there’s some kind of pinata of benevolence. But here’s the thing about a pinata: it doesn’t open on it’s own. You have to beat it with a stick.” ~ Bill Maher
October 9, 2011 at 11:57 am #736224
kootchmanMemberFascinating. where to you all get your ideas that someone elses money is yours? I mean really. Where do you come up with the numbers? When we all have the same amount of money? Same cars? Same square footage houses? When do you reach satiation? At what point is the envy quenched? I suspect never. Anarchy in Nikes.
October 9, 2011 at 12:03 pm #736225
kootchmanMemberThat long list of “wants” … do they care if the tarps are Chinese goods? Or the deodorant, tissues, toothpaste, blankets, medical supplies come from those corporatist bastards? Proctor and Gamble, Sign materials from a Kioch Bros cardboard plant, medical supplies from Bayer AG, umbrellas from Target, K-Mart or Wal Mart?
October 9, 2011 at 2:27 pm #736226
TDeParticipantI for one… and I suspect many others as well, do not strive to be wealthy. I have no desire to own my own corporate jet or mega mansions with swimming pools and garages full of expensive cars. I and many others want a good job that provides us with comfort and are more than willing to work hard at that job to have a house, education for our children, health insurance, decent food, a nice vacation now and then, a fund for retirement and a little extra time to contribute meaningfully to our community.
There’s no envy of the wealthy. And I personally like a whole lot of stuff that the “corporate bastards” produce for the rest of us. What I’m angry about is that so many of the “corporate bastards” are sitting on trillions of dollars and aren’t willing to hire, trickle down or even contribute the same percentage of tax dollars to help out the country that allowed them to make their fortunes. They’ve figured out how to get more out of a reduced workforce, buy politicians, buy elections, pay less taxes, hoard their trillions and avoid any responsibility for the demise of the middle class or the recession.
Sure we could all go back to school for 4-6 years to re-train and get ourselves engineering or high tech degrees, but then we’d be even further in debt than we are now because we can’t afford to attend college again without taking out more loans.
A whole bunch of those kids out there occupying the streets were told to get a college education, any college education, in order for them to be able to get a great job. So they did. And now they are in debt up to their eyeballs and either have no job or have a job that pays so low they cannot get ahead of their student loan debt and won’t for 20 or 30 years.
Envy of the wealthy isn’t what’s happening. Anger at the system that promotes only the wealthy and large corporations while milking the rest of us is the point. Land of opportunity? Not so much anymore.
October 9, 2011 at 3:39 pm #736227
JoBParticipantkootchman,
labor unions and democrats are not special interests…
they directly represent citizens.
MSNBC ? in our wildest dreams… which unfortunately aren’t fulfilled:(
“The liberals would like the eyes not to be cast on the willing enabler of Wall Street.”
Really? Then what the he.. are they protesting across America for?
Yes, i know the message as relayed to us via media seems garbled…
not so much on facebook where communication is person to person and pretty articulate…
they are pretty liberal
and they are on Wall Street for a reason…
Unlike republicans..
liberals actually criticize their democratic presidents
it’s a clear disadvantage at the polls to lose that blind loyalty
but a real advantage for citizens when it comes to legislation.
and finaly.. because i have spent altogether too much time on these ASSumptions already…
“where to you all get your ideas that someone elses money is yours?”
The facts kootch… nothing but the facts.
The transfer of wealth in American isn’t a downward trend.
It’s an upward trend and the pace in the last decade or so has been fast and furious.
The wealthy have siphoned an incredible amount of money from the middle class. Look at the stats.
How did they do this?
Well, for a start, they have done so by not paying their fair share of taxes.
The Bush tax cut was a tax cut that was originally supposed to be temporary to stimulate the economy… you know.. trickle down.. or in Bill Maher’s incredibly catchy phrase “benevolent pinata” (boy, i hope i got that right).. on edit.. i didn’t:( “pinata of benevolence”
the policy failed but the “common wisdom” is that the tax cuts are now the “right of the wealthy to hang onto their hard earned money”.
Ever wonder how many advertising dollars it took to create that impression?
but.. i am not done…
the wealthy have siphoned off our money through “pension” stock market investments… with the prepaid “common wisdom” that the stock market is a level playing field for all and since the rich have their money invested it’s safe for all.
there’s one itty bitty difference. The rich have control of their investments and are free to speculate with their money minute by minute as the market responds to the market conditions they create.
The same finance community that depends upon the rich prospering have control of our pension funds.
Oops… two funds down 27 grand this year and we expect them to go lower.
What do you do?
I drive a 10 year old minivan with nearly 200,000 miles on it so that somewhere some rich people can siphon off another 27 grand from the middle class. Ouch!
Then there are public dollars.. you know those taxes we pay as citizens to fund citizen services.
A good deal of that transfer has occurred in the multiple profit centers of our increasingly outsourced citizen services… including but certainly not restricted to the military.
Big dollars have sold some Americans on the idea that big government is the problem.. that we are bloated with government workers.
Instead of paying citizens a decent wage so they can generate taxes, we pay to outsource those same services at double or triple or quadruple the cost with absolutely no quality controls and that money goes directly into the pockets of the wealthy… without the tax dollars if the service is provided overseas :(
My brother is one of those “outsourced employees”. I am glad for him that we are paying him many times what we would pay someone in the military or even the secret service to do his job and that he is not paying taxes on what he earns as long as he doesn’t visit his family in the states too often. And i am really glad for him that he can now afford for them to visit him elsewhere so he doesn’t lose that tax exemption.
While i am glad for him..
i am not quite so glad to be footing his bill:(
and i am really not glad to be footing the bill for the multiple profit centers that provided his job:(
and let’s not even get started on the tax code which even before the Bush tax cuts was engineered to shift the tax burden on income to the middle class.
where did i start? oh yeah..
“”where to you all get your ideas that someone elses money is yours?””
Facts would indicate you have that one completely wrong.
The question should be..
where did they get the idea that our money belongs to them?
And…
how did we get so stupid as to allow advertisers to convince us that they were right?
ok.. sorry about the length folks..
but i am done
fighting ASSumptions is hard work:(
October 9, 2011 at 3:41 pm #736228
JoBParticipantOctober 9, 2011 at 3:53 pm #736229
redblackParticipanta friend and i were talking about occupy wall street last night. he wondered aloud what would happen if the middle class voluntarily stopped paying its mortgages – for a month, or two, or longer – to send a message to wall street.
discuss.
yes, i know it’s an enforceable contract.
but i mean, really. those “people” own our houses. but they don’t know about the squeak in the living room floorboards, or the stuck bathroom window, or which breaker turns on the attic fans.
i also know that they don’t have the manpower to evict all of us. hell, they may not even have the manpower to foreclose on all of us.
kind of amazing that the only important act of civil disobedience we can perform that will get their attention is action against massive banks.
October 9, 2011 at 4:14 pm #736230
JoBParticipantredblack…
you posted while i amended and re-amended my last post…
the trouble with editing is that inevitably you discover what you didn’t say while you correct the grammar and spelling of what you did :(
“what would happen if the middle class voluntarily stopped paying its mortgages – for a month, or two, or longer – to send a message to wall street.”
it’s kind of like the idea of not paying our taxes at tax time.
yes, it sends a message…
but we pay the penalty:(
both individually and collectively
Those who make their money off of wall street have it safely sheltered in other currencies :(
October 9, 2011 at 4:34 pm #736231
redblackParticipanttrue. we “owe” them some arbitrary penalty.
but they’re not the government.
the other topic that came up was the contradiction when it comes to interest. they pay us nothing in APY when we let them use our money for… whatever the hell it is they do with it. but when they “loan” us “their” money, well, vato, crank up the interest and fees! cha-ching!
maybe we just take it back from them.
like i said, it’s civil disobedience. i don’t like having to be obedient to banks.
again, this discussion is hypothesis and conjecture. please don’t disappear me, mr. holder.
October 9, 2011 at 4:59 pm #736232
JoBParticipantredblack…
the arbitrary fees are not the only possible penalty:(
in an economy built upon the shaky structure of the financial industry..
if we deprive the banks we deprive the only engine currently fueling our economy…
the financial industry….
it’s a catch 22
when we had an economy based on something sustainable
like manufacturing
we could have exercised that “right” of civil disobedience towards the mortgage industry and accepted our own personal penalties as a result without collapsing the economy we all depend on..
but of course, we didn’t need to then
the financial industry depended upon us.
the middle class no longer has the wealth we once had so they now depend upon the great financial machine and the investment of the wealthy in profit taking from that machine.
There is some truth to the argument that we are headed towards third world status already
and that precipitating a financial collapse would allow us to rebuild as some countries in South America have done…
but I have as hard a time convincing myself to pull that plug now as i did in the 60s when “the revolution” was the “only” answer to political corruption.
We the people took back control of our country then and I believe we can now..
though to tell you the truth it has been one he.. of a decades long exhausting wrestling match…
and we are the underdogs here.
Retire here or bank on Ecuador or some other foreign country to sustain it’s re-emergence?
it’s a tough call these days.
October 9, 2011 at 5:05 pm #736233
redblackParticipantjo: did we take back control of our country in the 60’s? did we really? seems to me that it only got worse.
the reason we don’t have the wealth we once did is because we give it all to them in the form of monthly payments and bills.
we are their batteries. kind of like in the matrix.
October 9, 2011 at 5:10 pm #736234
JoBParticipantredblack…
for a short time there was resurgence of American ideals in public opinion …
as a woman, i can tell you that the change in laws that rode the crest of that resurgence have made a definite difference in my personal quality of life.
but, i can also tell you that even regarding the laws governing women’s rights, there has been a lot more appeasement that actual securing of those rights.
To our shame, too many of us bought the illusion.
****
speaking of illusions..
i think it’s time i started pursuing the illusion of health and stepped away from this computer before my joints freeze solid :)
if i keep this up one day all i will be able to move will be the fingers dancing on my keys:(
October 9, 2011 at 5:12 pm #736235
elikapekaParticipantTDe hits the nail on the head.
October 9, 2011 at 5:14 pm #736236
redblackParticipantOctober 9, 2011 at 5:15 pm #736237
JoBParticipantThank you elikapedia for pointing out TDe’s post.
I somehow missed it… and it does make my day.
“Envy of the wealthy isn’t what’s happening. Anger at the system that promotes only the wealthy and large corporations while milking the rest of us is the point. Land of opportunity? Not so much anymore. “
Yes!
October 9, 2011 at 5:17 pm #736238
DBPMemberFrom redblack & friend:
a friend and i were talking about occupy wall street last night. he wondered aloud what would happen if the middle class voluntarily stopped paying its mortgages – for a month, or two, or longer – to send a message to wall street.
Yeah. Sounds pretty good. Suppose it works, though. A whole bunch of people don’t pay their mortgages and Wall Street backs off and grants everyone a reprieve.
Friend then sez: “Hey! What if the middle class all just stopped paying their credit card bills. Teach Wall Street ANOTHER lesson.”
Right on! Again it works, incredibly.
Well, things proceed along these lines for a while, until one day you and your friend – dizzy with success – are at a bar celebrating the many victories won through the “Just Don’t Pay” strategy.
Suddenly, your friend looks over at you with a gleam in his eye and sez: “Hey, dude! I just thought of something. You know those tools I borrowed from you last week? Well, what if I just sort of voluntarily didn’t return them, you know? You’ve got more money than me; buy yourself some new ones.”
Up next . . . Redblack: Counter-Revolutionary Swine
October 9, 2011 at 5:42 pm #736239
ToolShareMemberWe suppose you could then just use The Tool Library.
October 9, 2011 at 10:17 pm #736240
JoBParticipantToolshare..
what a great idea.
i have been meaning to come over and check the Tool Library out.
October 10, 2011 at 12:06 am #736241
kootchmanMemberAh JoB…. au contraire’ Your post…..
“labor unions and democrats are not special interests…
they directly represent citizens.”
Oh? Do they? Now how many advertising dollars did it take to convince you of that? Since you sugest we are mere products of Madison Avenue…
“The founders of the labor movement viewed unions as a vehicle to get workers more of the profits they help create. Government workers, however, don’t generate profits. They merely negotiate for more tax money.” Government collective bargaining means voters do not have the final say on public policy.”
Now that is a fair assessment. The source is the NY Times editorial page. As I have oft stated.. unions are free associations and if labor and management want to sign joint suicide contracts, go for it.
Union contracts make it next to impossible to reward excellent teachers or fire failing ones. Union contracts give government employees gold-plated benefits – at the cost of higher taxes and less spending on other priorities
Let’s take a trip down memory lane… to one Mr. George Meany
The lion of big labor, the architect of the merger of the CIO and AFL .. he was opposed to government employee unionization stating..
A.F.L.-C.I.O. Executive Council’s 1959 advice: “In terms of accepted collective bargaining procedures, government workers have no right beyond the authority to petition Congress — a right available to every citizen.”
I think Messr redblack decried the paltry pay of the “average” WA teacher. Uh huh…
Wisconsin: A state worker at a salary of $44,000, his private sector counterpart would have to have a $71,000 salary to account for the pension, health, and other fringe benefits.
October 10, 2011 at 12:13 am #736242
kootchmanMemberDecry campaign dollars all you want, Votes count. WA State politicians long ago discovered that the votes en masse of labor were easy to get. Give unions access to government which the private citizen does not have and voila’.. an assured voting bloc.
I believe Elkipedia threw out the sob of firefighters and police…another advertising fabrication?
A decade ago, candidates for governor in highly unionized states eagerly sought the endorsement of government workers’ unions, knowing that this could lead to election victory. They seem to have learned that confronting the unions rather than courting them pays off. Blame the public workers’ unions, particularly the teachers, clerical and transportation workers unions (there is nothing to be gained politically by attacking the unions of police and firefighters), and tremendous public support will surely follow.
Touche’
October 10, 2011 at 12:41 am #736243
DBPMemberI guess it’s a fairness thing, kootchman.
For the nonce, let’s table the question of whether union employees make too much. In exchange for that, we can also table the question of whether corporate CEOs make too much.
Oh, hell! Let’s just say they BOTH make too much.
I don’t think workers would mind pay cuts so much if they had some sense that the sacrifice was being spread around. But when the boss asks everyone to take a pay cut on the grounds that times are tough, and then he goes and gives himself a big juicy bonus, there’s this sense that something is rotten in Denmark.
See what I’m saying?
So what say you?
P.S. I’m open to the possibility that I’m wrong.
October 10, 2011 at 12:46 am #736244
JiggersMemberBy the way, Mayor McGinn made a personal visit today to Westlake Park to meet with the protestors and encouraged them to do what they are doing..:)
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.