Obama speaks

[Buddy]

Share This

[JanS]

Buddy…but you didn’t…at least not on here – lol…at a loss for words?

Share This

[JoB]

Obama spoke

there were no surprises there

but a lot of disappointment

yes we can…. what ????????

Share This

[charlabob]

Sadly, JoB is right — there were no surprises. He’s doing exactly what he said he’d do, during the campaign. Maybe we’re just not used to Pols who do what they say they’ll do. :-)

Share This

[JoB]

oh charlabob…

not to pick a bone… but can we start with health reform and move on to escalating armed conflict? how about the deadline he set Iran before the US stops talking? or the cuban government that he has no interest in talking with unless they become more democratic. or ??????

somehow, i don’t remember handing the insurance industry increased profits as part of his campaign promises…

and where was it that he promised a time limit and conditions on the emphasis he would put on diplomacy?

when he promised to shut Guantanamo down, did he promise to give us alternative justice system that could sidestep the protections of the constitution?

funny.. i don’t remember any of that.

Dont’ write me off as a disgruntled Hillary supporter.. I a loyal democrat who expects her elected democrat representatives.. including the president… to act like democrats.

I too want the Afghan and Pakistan governments to give up the taliban.. but sending more troops into an already volatile border region and escalating conflict there isn’t going to win the hearts and minds of the Afghan or Pakistani people… and those people are what makes it possible for the Taliban to regroup, reorganize and recruit along that border.

This is not ending an unpopular war.. it is simply shifting emphasis to one that is thought to be easier to sell.

If we had invested even a fraction of what we have invested in conflict in Afghanistan decades ago in schools, medical care and infrastructure, we would have been unlikely to find ourselves with another president selling us another war…

while backing away from establishing a government agency for consumer protection against the kinds of fraud that have tumbled our economy.

but wait.. had we done the same thing here.. invested in schools, medical care and infrastructure … perhaps had we invested at home we wouldn’t have to send troops to protect “our” investments abroad.

it’s not too late to do just that in Afghanistan or the United States of America.. but we can’t finance both war and rebuilding. When you choose one you neglect the other.

it isn’t enough to win. You have to do something substantive with that win beyond improving perceptions to make a real difference.

again.. yes we can… but this isn’t what most of us had in mind.

Share This

[JoB]

from credo… and brave new foundation

” the President’s own National Security Advisor has reported that there are fewer than 100 Al Qaeda operatives in all of Afghanistan with no ability to launch attacks on either the United States or our allies.3

…Congress must decide if spending $100 billion a year to have 100,000 troops chasing 100 terrorists in the most remote mountains of our planet is worth it.”

3 “Chaffetz: Get troops out of Afghanistan,” Washington Times, December 1, 2009

http://rethinkafghanistan.com/?utm_source=tmpetition

Just say NO.

Share This

[KBear]

If we leave Afghanistan now, the Taliban will retake control, and the people of Afghanistan will continue to suffer. Is that the right thing to do?

And if the Taliban were in charge, do you really think there would be only 100 Al Quaeda (if that is even a factual count) in Afghanistan?

Share This

[charlabob]

JoB, your bones are well-taken :-) I just meant he did exactly what he said he’d do WITH AFGHANISTAN.

Share This

[JoB]

kbear..

think about this..

is it in the best interests of the taliban to cede control of their country to al quaeda if and when they gain more political control?

because they will gain more political control.. whether we leave or not as an inevitable part of the democratic process.

would you want an al quaeda recruiting in your country if you were in control? the arabs didn’t. why do you think they went to afghanistan in the first place?

Share This

[KBear]

Al Qaeda aside, should we really leave Afghanistan to the Taliban? At what point do we have an obligation to intervene, in order to prevent widespread suffering and human rights violations? And now that we’re already involved, don’t we have a responsibility to leave the situation better than we found it?

Share This

[JoB]

charlabob..

maybe i was a bit testy?

you are right, this is what he said he would do in Afghanistan:(

I would hope that this congress wouldn’t give him an open checkbook… but realism sets in.

i will protest even though i don’t expect it will make any difference.

why should this war be any different?

Share This

[JoB]

Kbear…

we “found” this situation when we “assisted” the Afghans against Russian invasion.

Many count the war in Afghanistan.. and a couple of neighboring similarly clannish countries as the straw that broke the Russian back…

Take a good look at Afghan history… this is not a country to wage a successful war in… for anyone.

the Taliban stepped into the vacuum we created when we withdrew the first time… after “beating” the Russians… and destroyed local governments with the weapons we supplied them.

Any enemy of our enemy and all that :(

Did you know that the basic Afghan system is highly democratic? The local villages democratically elect their chiefs… and that Afghan women were very independent before we left the country in charge of the Taliban and emerging Al Quaeda?

We chose Afghanistan as a battlefield against the Russians and in the process decimated the Afghan democratic system…

Do you really think that sending 30,000 more armed troops and waging more war in their country is going to restore Afghanistan or win the ideological hearts of it’s people?

How would that work for you?

if we want to “win” in Afghanistan, we need to support local village governments, supply schools and medical facilities and help rebuild infrastructure. That will do more to restore stability for the Afghan people than any other thing we could possibly do.

the Afghan democratic system will take care of the rest one local village at a time. Becoming a haven for Al Qaueda isn’t in their best interests… They need the children Al Qaueda wants to recruit to create a future for themselves.

Share This

[Jiggers]

We need to get out of Afghy now. They haven’t been conquered for a thousand years. What makes you think we’re going to change it? Use the money and restructure our own infrastructure now.

Share This

[KBear]

The war is not going to stop if we withdraw our troops now. It will continue as the Taliban fight to overthrow the Afghan government. It may take them weeks, months, or years to do so, but in the mean time, I don’t think much infrastructure or democracy is going to be built.

Share This

[maplesyrup]

(this draws from stuff I heard on NPR last night, not exclusively my ideas, but…)

Although Iraq and Afghanistan are obviously different situations, it’s hard to argue that the Iraq surge was not a success. And one of the main reasons is that the emphasis on our presence there shifted from blowing shit up and killing insurgents to providing security for the Iraqi people.

That’s an important shift for a few reasons. For starters it makes the insurgents the bad guys, not the U.S. It shows the Iraqi people that we have a common enemy and engages them in the fight. And once the Iraqis are engaged, it makes training and transition (and our withdrawl) much, much easier.

Talk about winning hearts and minds.

And that’s supposedly the strategy with Afghanistan. It’s not at all about nation building, instilling democracy or any of that crap that the Bush administration tried to convince you was the goal.

And yeah it’s going to cost us. But the alternatives of a) spinning our wheels with the current troop levels or b) withdrawing and leaving a gaping security hole in an already lawless and volatile region (including Pakistan) are a lot worse. If our military can pull it off, I see the surge as the lesser of evils.

Share This

[Jiggers]

Hearts and Minds? Wishful thinking. But I’m sure that you’re a better person than I am.

Share This

[HMC Rich]

The President’s speech was strange. It was not a rousing speech nor was it capitulation. I honestly felt he wanted to please everyone but knew he wouldn’t and didn’t. It seems like he was also saying that America needs to help the rest of the world like we have in the past but we don’t want to step on anyone’s toes because of the mistakes of the past. Very confusing.

I conclude that the Anti War crowd are extremely disappointed but the “Pro-Surge group” is not happy with the amount of troops and a deadline.

Candidate Obama had better speeches. This was weird.

What was one of the 3 points you never do in Asia from the movie “The Princess Bride”? Oh yeah, never fight a land war in Asia.

JoB, we did arm the anti-Soviet tribes but if Russia had kept its nose out of Afghanistan, maybe the Taliban would not have filled the vacuum.

The Taliban made Afghanistan a living hell. Talk about an Extremist, evil, bastardized form of government and an abandonment of freedom and basic human rights.

I wish we had killed UBL in Tora Bora when we had the chance. I wish we had taken him out years before also. I wish Opium wouldn’t grow in Afghanistan. What a mess.

If Vietnam taught us one thing, you don’t fight a war with half measures. It is a tough problem. There are no easy answers. NATO will not stay there forever. This is not Korea.

Pakistan has nukes. Taliban/Al Queda forces cannot get access to those. It must be lonely at the top sometimes.

Share This

[maplesyrup]

Something tangental: if you’re interested in the history of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan I would highly recommend the book Charlie Wilson’s War.

Share This

[JoB]

maplesyrup..

the movie isn’t bad either… (Charlie Wilson’s War)

and there is another movie a week from sunday (i think) .. and it’s free

https://westseattleblog.com/blog/forum/topic.php?id=7389

it’s the movie sourced from

http://rethinkafghanistan.com/?utm_source=tmpetition

i haven’t seen it yet.. but i understand it is pretty well done.

regardless of where you personally end up coming out on this subject, it pays to get educated.

public opinion ended the vietnam war.

Share This

[JoB]

HMCRich..

being at the top isn’t supposed to be about pleasing everyone.. we pay our presidents for life because of the hard choices they have to make on our behalf.

i almost wish there were no second terms or that the president was guaranteed a second term unless there was just cause to remove him.. something short of impeachment… but more than just loss of confidence…. because our current system causes a sitting president to prioritize campaigning in their first term instead of making tough and sometimes unpopular decisions.

Share This

[dobro]

One thing to remember here is that this war was started, mishandled,funded off budget,screwed up, and left a complete mess by the Cheney/Bush administration. People are trying to rewrite history and call it Obama’s war now. Baloney. He’s been left to clean up a situation where there are absolutely no good choices.

I don’t like the escalation but I think President Obama deserves a chance to make this decision work. It’s a huge gamble but as you consider the consequences, think about this- President McCain (Palin)- the mind reels.

Share This

[JoB]

dobro…

i haven't forgotten who created the mess now being cleaned up.. wars and all…

and i won't join republicans calling for rolling heads..

but i am still very disappointed.

Share This

[HMC Rich]

Dobro, I take it that you won't be giving money to the RNC!!. I differ on your thoughts about McCain and Palin. Ahh politics. I bet a Palin book would out sell a McCain book! Anyhow, In some way you are right but also this has been mishandled by the last four presidents. Obama deserves a chance to screw it up too. I hope he doesn't. I really hope he and the military get it right. I am sometimes surprised there aren't more problems considering some of the teachings of various extremist groups.

Let me be clear. Mr. Obama inherited two wars.

Now it is Mr. Obama's war. He didn't ask for it but since he wanted to be President he knew he would have to deal with it. I pray he is successful. I wish we weren't there but I do not want to see a repeat of 9/11 again either.

JoB, you said "we pay our presidents for life because of the hard choices they have to make on our behalf". I sometimes think we pay for the rest of our lives because of the hard choices they make on our behalf.

You may be disappointed with the decision but I am proud of our country and the men and women who defend it.

Share This

[JoB]

HMCRich…

"Ahh politics. I bet a Palin book would out sell a McCain book! "

This is precisely what is wrong with politics today. The ability to excite public curiosity/interest enough to write a book doesn't qualify you for president.. but it seems it is a step in the process.

i would be more impressed with Ms Palin's book had she actually written it herself… but if you believe that perception counts more than content.. i guess there is no need to bother with the pesky concepts of research, reflection and writing…

"Let me be clear. Mr. Obama inherited two wars.

Now it is Mr. Obama's war."

he did inherit this war. he didn't wage it… he doesn't own it. you have to look elsewhere for that. I have great hope that these will be the wars Mr Obama ends… instead of the wars Mr Bush claimed to have won before they had even begun.

"You may be disappointed with the decision but I am proud of our country and the men and women who defend it. "

What makes you assume that i am not equally proud of the men and women in our armed forces? I have family in both conflicts. My brother is headed to one any day now. People who oppose the war are as likely to have friends and family killed there as people who support it.

And to be frank, people who oppose the war are more likely to advocate for services for the troops when they are returned home…. we don't think supporting the troops only means sending them into conflict.. we are willing to put our money where our mouths are…

This notion that disapproving of war somehow makes you unpatriotic is another product of the republican slur machine.. but that doesn't make it true.

in referring to our presidents.. you said "I sometimes think we pay for the rest of our lives because of the hard choices they make on our behalf. "

It is a fact that too many of our citizens have paid for this war with their lives…. and their families with their sorrow…

It's too bad President Bush and VP Cheney let the glamour and spoils of war blind them to the sacrifices citizens were going to have to make on their behalf.

Sometimes the hardest choice is saying no.

Share This

[HMC Rich]

JoB, I was not in favor of the Iraqi war, but we went, We killed a madman and that was good. Whether or not the consequences of those actions will adversely affect the future remains to be seen.

We can dissapprove of war all we want, but the soldiers should usually be off limits to the attacks. The military needs to be accountable but they serve at the pleasure of the President and the Congress. The politicians are the ones we should be mad at. Fine, be mad at the Pols for starting and ending armed conflicts.. It is your right. And it is my right to call someone unpatriotic if I want to.

It really ticks me off when somebody like John Murtha or John Kerry attack our soldiers and turn out to be wrong. It affects moral adversely.

I know you despise Cheney and Bush but they went after terrorists and despots. It cost many lives. If we do not support them the loss of loved ones will be in vain. There are plenty of people on the left and right that support the troops returning. But, there are some heartbreaking stories too. No group has an exclusive on compassion. Nice try at slamming the right. No Sale.

A bunch of radical islamic terrorists attacked us and other countries around the world. Since Mr. Obama's experience dealt with Islamic and Christian cultures, I am going to defer to his judgement on Afghanistan. He may have more insight due to his background. I am positive he doesn't support radical Islam and that is why he is pushing the fight. And yes, at some point I too want us out of there.

If all wars could end, I would be so happy. Non-violent protest and disagreement are much more successful. The peace post people got that one right. But, if a bunch of terrorists keep taking pot shots at us, there is only so much we will take. I wish for all of us to be safe. Have a nice week.

Share This

[Author]

Posts