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May 12, 2012 at 8:40 pm #756791
JanSParticipanthey, miws…now he’s picking on you, too…feel privileged yet?
May 12, 2012 at 8:50 pm #756792
kootchmanMemberAh… ya got an ally… how cute. Which year was the surplus? Bopsy Twins, Heckle and Jeckle? But miws can post this? And I am “picking on him”? Interesting perspective.
“*Waiting for kootch to call JaN a name, while feebly attempting to challenge her latest posts.*”
May 12, 2012 at 8:56 pm #756793
kootchmanMemberOn to another left/right “thing”… if it’s fashionable… I generally figure not for me… size 14 foot and all that… but I saw this on CNBC today… and figured what the hell… what a great story, what a great idea… better than Nike … and I can do biz casual. Bought two pair …..
way too cool …
May 12, 2012 at 9:16 pm #756794
JanSParticipantwhatever, Kootch…am going outside now…for a fun evening…supporting Music…gonna see Alan White…and White.. you’d enjoy it :)
May 12, 2012 at 9:18 pm #756795
redblackParticipantthe point is that the tea party was also against the GM bailout – which was actually a loan – prompting them to call GM “government motors.” but you don’t say the same thing about TARP putting the government in the banking business.
the banks and the top 1% own the government. not UAW. not AFSCME. not AFL-CIO.
but the tea party has aligned itself with the interests of the top 1% instead of with working people and small business, which is taxed differently than big interstate and international businesses.
May 12, 2012 at 9:56 pm #756796
kootchmanMemberit’s a bail out. It’s also a bail out because GM defaulted on corporate bond debt… they stiffed investors who were left holding junk paper… that’s a bail out… They should have been forced into bankruptcy reorganization where EVERYTHING is on the table…. including the inflated pension benefits, It wasn’t a loan… far from it, The US Government took an equity position… they didn’t loan a damn thing. They purchased a new class of stock. I know the difference between an loan and an equity share redblack. The bank deal was no better…. they paid the feds back with the phony money they printed… they took good money and paid it back with monopoly money minted just for them,. and wouldn’t ya know it… Obama is now claiming they “made” money off the deal. We aren’t stupid….. at least not on this side of the aisle. The TEA Party has not aligned itself with anything… it has one mission. No new taxes until we get real government cuts… not cuts in the rate of growth… absolute cuts. What y’all seen to not understand.,,.. we have enough government ,, we want less.. and we no longer trust them to do anything productive with the taxes they get… as this administration has proved it ….. more then proved. it. The big fellahs can take car of themselves… yo know who is going to get killed by Obama taxes? Small business owners…. the sole proprietor, the sub chapter S, the LLC…. the job creators that aren’t creating jobs. If I was 25 years younger…. I would never open a business in this climate… I’d park it so far offshore you couldn’t find it with a satellite.
May 13, 2012 at 12:08 am #756797
miwsParticipantMay 13, 2012 at 3:33 am #756798
jamminjMember“I know you and JaN don’t like facts”
rich coming from someone who has lied over and over again in thread after thread.
“The TEA Party has not aligned itself with anything.”
And that is just about sums up the mentality of the tea party.
May 13, 2012 at 3:35 am #756799
jamminjMember“and we no longer trust them to do anything productive with the taxes they get.”
then push to privative the military.
can’t trust the government, especially with the biggest military in the world, time to turn over our military to the highest bidder then.
May 13, 2012 at 6:21 am #756800
HMC RichParticipantPost 69. The link I read is amazingly wrong in many ways. This is cherry picking at its finest or journalistic malpractice.
#1) The article linked said the majority of job growth happened during the Clinton years. What really happened: The Reagan years stimulated the economy well through the Clinton years, even with a small tax hike, plus the Newt Gingrich led Congress brought spending under control while letting the private sector grow without too much governmental interference. A lesson learned was the dotcom bust which carried into W’s first year.
Plus, the article started referencing job growth in 1932. Why not 1922, or 1913? The roaring 20’s would have skewed the numbers AND when Dem or Rep President from 1932 cut taxes, jobs grew.
2. Women’s suffrage. Here the article writer lied. Woodrow Wilson was picketed by the suffragettes. He ignored them. Finally (and rightfully he started to support them in 1918 – an election year.)
The article said the GOP fought against women’s right to vote. Lets look at the vote provided by Wikipedia … The key vote came on June 4, 1919, when the Senate approved the amendment by 56 to 25 after four hours of debate, during which Democratic Senators opposed to the amendment filibustered to prevent a roll call until their absent Senators could be protected by pairs. The Ayes included 36 (82%) Republicans and 20 (54%) Democrats. The Nays comprised 8 (18%) Republicans and 17 (46%) Democrats. It was ratified by sufficient states in 1920, the Nineteenth Amendment, which prohibited state or federal sex-based restrictions on voting…. The writer promotes Woodrow Wilson but Wilson was late to the party on this one. And those votes that passed it. More Republicans than Democrats voted for it. The author revised history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage#United_States
3. 37 Million Americans have student loan debt. Too many Americans go to college and get loans. There is nothing wrong with learning a trade. Student debt is the highest it has ever been and it is hindering this country. The author shouts about Work Study. But the tragedy is that many college students are burdened with a debt that takes years to pay off unless they make a lot of money. But if they make a lot of money they are called the 1% and the liberals want to jack up their taxes. Either way they government wants the money.
4. Essentially Gay Marriage. Federally, due to the Defense of Marriage Act the union of two people in marriage can only be between a man and a woman. President Obama and the DOJ are breaking the law in not enforcing this Act. Personally, I think this is a States Rights issue and the Federal Government should have no say in it, but since they do, any state authorizing Gay Marriage is breaking the law. The author again is wrong.
5. Wow, work study from the government helped get him through college. The way this person twists facts, two things are clear. He should not have went to college. If he did, he was a product of liberal progressive theology, sorry.. idiotology.
One of the Great Society programs. Let me be clear, some of those programs have benefited a lot of people, but lets look at the findings from the CATO Institute regarding the War on Poverty http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/88767476
So, in a nutshell, we have approximately the same percentage of people in poverty as when it was started. The Feds throw 1 Trillion dollars a year at 126 programs. Almost $60,000 a year is spent on a 3 person poverty family. Big government’s solution is not working right. Plus, maybe this horrible writer should not have gone to college to be a journalist.
I am getting tired but I can blowup most of what this awful article says. I may do so anyway. Half truths are horrible and can be called half lies.
11. I have to comment. This was a Supreme Court finding, not an Anti-Republican measure (interacial marriage). Good Lord. This writer is awful.
This research submitted by this guy is trumped up, skewed, ideology. Revisionist History.
May 13, 2012 at 7:41 am #756801
JanSParticipantHMC Rich…one article by pone person…someone else may have 20 other things…cherry picking? so what? like a conservative wouldn’t do the same? You don’t agree with the points? That’s your prerogative, now, isn’t it? Was too good a day to argue….got filled with some excellent, excellent music tonight :)
May 13, 2012 at 7:44 am #756802
JanSParticipantHMC Rich…one article by one person…someone else may have 20 other things…cherry picking? so what? like a conservative wouldn’t do the same? You don’t agree with the points? That’s your prerogative, now, isn’t it? Was too good a day to argue….got filled with some excellent, excellent music tonight :)
May 13, 2012 at 1:39 pm #756803
JoBParticipantkootch..
let’s talk turkey about a dead cat
the dead cat of healthcare is the reform that Republicans proposed before they called it Obamacare
let’s talk turkey about gay marriage being a fringe position… you haven’t read the polls my friend..
and don’t tell me about Eastern Washington where the grass is greener and the men are meaner..
the polls are national dude.
HMC..
what else shall we talk turkey about?
those bussed in fringe radicals?
something the tea party would never do
unless of course the bus is funded by Koch?
ROFLOL ..
you guys sure know how to give a girl a chuckle..
thanks
May 13, 2012 at 1:50 pm #756804
JoBParticipantHMCRich
it’s clear that you weren’t’ of an age during Reaganomics to watch the death knoll of small businesses in the US.
the little engine that could in the Clinton years?
Yup, you guessed it. small businesses.
as of the rest of your “points”
equally flawed..
but i am not going to bother picking them apart today.
i have better things to do with my time
I’m going to a double wedding
at a homeless encampment
done “hippy” style
to be fair..
done hippy style
the way someone who has just about as much of a clue what hippy style was
as you do of what Reaganomics were
but still….
May 13, 2012 at 11:56 pm #756805
kootchmanMemberJoB I started three businesses during the Reagan years. Small businesses. Made a couple phone calls this weekend.. two are still going…one at 50% of its manpower since the slowdown, one doing fine, actually hiring. And my little enterprise, which is strong enough to carry me to the sunset ride. Gay marriage is a fringe issue. It’s not going to determine this election. The economy is. Jobs are. Restoration of a growing economy. We know how successful this administration is at the taask, Now, you may be happy with the economic course of events.. if you are, you will vote Democrate and we will have foru more years of the same and probably worse. If you aren’t, you will vote Republican..because of the polls you read are the ones everyone else reads…Republicans are trusted more on economic issues. . The interesting data is not the 60K thrown at the family of three… it’s how much of that 60K gets to the family… it goes mostly to the collection and the disbursement … and of course 40% of it is borrowed money. We all had our chances to be “hippie” and some of us did indeed dally there. Even Wavy Gravy is a !$ per center Ms. JoB. The polls say… 50% of the population supports gay unions… equal rights, .. non discrimination. Defining a civil union as a marriage is another agenda entirely…. that’s a social agenda to redefine a cultural construct that is thousands of years old and the worlds dominant opinion.. the union of a man and a wife. When I am polled.. I say I am in the affirmative… equality for all. 32 states say so. And in those states, there ARE growing protections for same sex unions. Those TEA Party rallies included, gun rights advocates, women, same sex union supporters, all in varying degrees… the fire being held is singular, purposeful and targeted…. no new taxes until we have demonstrable reform. We have been down the road of new taxes and no reform too many times. It ain’t going to happen again. FIRST show us the cuts, enact them, and then we can talk about new taxes. We know we will need them, we can add and subtract… but cutting the rate of growth and calling it a cut … that language doesn’t work anymore. Tell your credit card company the same story… you are 100K over your limit, are spending at a 10K per month clip, but… you will only spend 7K from now on… and convince them you are being financially astute. The reason all those start-ups durning the Reagan/Clinton years? Investors had capital to loan and put at risk…. a second term of Obama? Is that the term he is going to “bankrupt” the coal industry? His own words. All 1.9 million jobs and ove 46% of the lowest cost energy genration we have? The energy we will need to fun the factories for the jobs we desperately need? Is that the term he decides that his “fairness” doctrine get full implementation and our personal tax rates soar to fund more government? Won’t happen.
May 14, 2012 at 12:02 am #756806
kootchmanMemberI still never get the answer to the question…. why does a state university have a core inflation rate that exceeds health care? Why can’t states afford to fund it? Cheap credit… no incentive to keep costs under control. They raise the rates… we raise the loan limits, where is the incentive to control costs? There is none. You can bet costs would plummet if we restricted loans..see how housing prices came down when credit dried up? It’s small ball… remember when I said .. “we don’t need all the Catholic votes.. just to peel off 5% who voted for Obama last time… mission accomplished.
Gallup Daily tracking conducted April 11-30. Among the 1,915 Catholics interviewed during that time, support for Obama and Romney was almost the same, with 46% support for Obama and 46% for Romney. 2008? Democrat, 54%, Republicans, 45%… that wins the election in 3 of 7 swing states.
It’s the economy and we aren’t stupid…. but do continue the cultural wars… The War on Woman…. was a net loser. Start another one,
May 14, 2012 at 6:07 am #756807
HMC RichParticipantHappy Birthday. Have fun.
I only scratched the surface. I lived near some of the communes in Eastern Washington. I went to school with some of their kids, knew the parents. Fortunately most of them decided on common sense solutions and were great neighbors. OK, too many drugs for some of them and STD’s. All in all though, good people. In fact some of them opened up businesses “During the Years of Reagan” and flourished. Many compromised on the communal system but some of the better ideas regarding food and caring survived.
Everything changes. And that is problem many of you don’t want to admit. Many of you remember the industrial/manufacturing giant the US was, but progress, technology, and some morals changed this country. For good and bad. I don’t want to get rid of government but I don’t want to have to give it 40 to 50% of what I make. That makes us all employees of the government. Yes, I want everyone to pay there fair share.
So much government “help” has formed a dependent government class of people. Certainly many people have benefited from the sharing of tax revenues fed into different coffers to help others. But you can’t keep borrowing 40 cents on every dollar. What is wrong here?
And, the Nanny state is too big. For example, Non working Single Moms and dads with kids don’t have a choice anymore (although there are lots of exceptions). With the costs of daycare, food, and high housing, why would they want to find a low paying job that would not cover all their families needs? I don’t blame them. Since families are not as close or strong as they may have been in the past, the parent is alone. They need help from somewhere and that help is the government.
And this is the crux of the problem.
The Democrats and Progressive Republicans wanted to help people through government. Now this “government supported class” really can’t live without Federal Help. Why would a person who is supported by the Government vote out the hand that feeds them? Ummm that would be Democrats for those of you who forget there are two main parties.
This is why you have a religious right at odds with Democrats. They know a family is better for a child than being a single parent family. My parents divorced, I know first hand the difficulties.
And Poverty is at about the same level as when they started the Great Society Programs but families are in worse shape. Classes of people have and have not been helped.
We have spent Trillions of dollars fighting poverty. And I believe in spending money for people in need. But this is out of control.
We need the economy to improve. At least if the economy improves maybe there will be more opportunity. I hope people can be empowered to live beyond the government.
May 14, 2012 at 1:51 pm #756808
kootchmanMemberGood points. My biggest concern is we are raising the next generation to not empower themselves. I watched thousands grab their first grubstake on the Aleyeska pipeline. Lots of Texas oil field workers wrapping chain alongside more than one BA degreed humanities major. Three years later the left with fortunes in in their pockets. With the independence and means to make their mark. Those tent cites, and there were plenty… were job seekers willing to work. Now, they stand confused in Occupy encampments wondering why they are so powerless. I have seen it worse, and I witnessed a two fisted recovery. Hard fought but damn, Americans were so resilient then. We also had a leader who actually believed we were the solution, collectively. Not our government. He was a cheerleader in chief… go for it.. not wait for it. Nothing else will solve this other than jobs. Lots of them. Not making things there is no demand for. Not fabricating industries where there are no customers, where lower cost options are plentiful. I wouldn’t be trolling in occupy camps for new employees… I’d be outside the gates of Army bases, Marine Corps bases, Naval bases when the honorably discharged walk out the front gate for the last ime.. those that understand what “do it” means. If I needed degreed personell, (business degrees largely being meaningless IMHO, OJT works fine) the sheepskin and DD214…. first. Give me a 22 year old Platoon Sergeant or Tank Commander any day. I will pay my fair share…i give my fair share… but damned if a bunch entitlement seekers are going to decide what that share is. They aren’t qualified to make that decision. We have a permanent underclass. Some by dreadful consequence of bad fortune, we need to protect them..others by choice, we owe them nothing, There were people in the age of shovel and muscle and people in the age of service and knowledge who are there. Yet, we would run our society and organize our government around them? We would bankrupt ourselves for that?
May 14, 2012 at 4:11 pm #756809
JoBParticipantkootch..
if economics is what is going to determine this election then you guys are in trouble.
It’s hard to forget that the policies the republican party is promoting are the ones that tanked our national economy.
the best you can say is that Obama wasn’t able to clean up your mess fast enough to suit you.
Your party of choice is not going to reinstate Graham Rudman or any of the other reforms you mention and you know it.
And while you are dismissing gay marriage as a fringe issue … you might remember that gay marriage is part of a larger issue called human rights…
and the Republican record isn’t so good there.
in fact. they did that hole deeper every time one of your chosen few open their mouths.
the only social agenda happening right now is on the far right fringes of the Republican party.. and the party faithful are going along with it because they want a win:(
at least.. the guys are.
i think even republican women understand that politics is more than a blood sport… there are consequences to think about.
and those elected tea party candidates in the house are doing a great job of spelling out the consequences for us.
as i type. the phrase “entitlement seekers” keeps getting my attention.
It’s amazing to me that you keep labeling people who want opportunity entitlement seekers
while ignoring the corporate feeding trough as though it didn’t exist.
The big choice this year is between people and corporate interests..
now that the democrats finally understand their choice..
voting for them might just end up being a small victory for people.
we the people kootch.
it says so in our constitution
May 14, 2012 at 4:13 pm #756810
JoBParticipantkootchman
“but damned if a bunch entitlement seekers are going to decide what that share is. They aren’t qualified to make that decision. We have a permanent underclass. Some by dreadful consequence of bad fortune, we need to protect them..others by choice, we owe them nothing, There were people in the age of shovel and muscle and people in the age of service and knowledge who are there. Yet, we would run our society and organize our government around them? We would bankrupt ourselves for that? “
those you would bankrupt our nation for have already bankrupted the American people.
That underclass you are so comfortable with?
it now encompasses nearly half of all Americans
Are you really comfortable with that?
May 14, 2012 at 6:02 pm #756811
kootchmanMemberNo, half the American people are not the underclass. Hyperbole doesn’t make the case. “We the people” also made some assumptions.. that those freedoms were opportunities never before granted to a people. It’s the freedoms to fight for…, the outcomes are not guaranteed. You can call them human rights.. but at least recognize that it is a “new human right”… crafted to fit the times. Based on the overwhelming number of states who will not define same sex unions as “marriage”.. it’s not a universal one yet. If it is “we the people” 38 states say no.. it’s not a right. In Washington, we will decide that issue forthwith..and I believe it will withstand the challenge. Getting there, but not yet. It’s not the most pressing issue by a long shot on the national agenda. Take a choice… Somalia’s biggest crisis is getting a 1000 calories a day to it’s people… our biggest health crises is we eat 2600 per day too many.
So you say… here’s the latest Gallup poll
More registered voters (61%) say Mitt Romney would do a good job of handling the economy over the next four years than say this about President Obama (52%) .. that’s 9 point spread.
You have exhausted the little engine that could… give it a chance to do what it has done since those “we the people” freedoms were ensconced. It was also Ben Franklin who observed, “as soon as the people find out they can vote themselves money, the republic is doomed”
Sorry JoB the biggest hits middle class Americans have ever taken were federal housing policy and the rampaging cost of carrying government. There is still opportunity out there… I just fear we have created a generation who don’t know how to use the freedoms. They won’t come in the mail and sure as hell won’t be delivered by government worker in a “how to” manual.
Whilst I may embrace our far right wing for expediency… it’s called coalition building… look to your own coalition.. no shortage of crackpots and would be social engineers there! The ideal is a good Libertarian… but… they are in short, short supply.
Stop looking at the shiny, dangly, things… if this is true IF…
the only social agenda happening right now is on the far right fringes of the Republican party.. and the party faithful are going along with it because they want a win:(
Then where is the plank in the Democratic platform? The man can evoke the commerce clause for Obamacare… but won’t evoke it for the 8 states who DO have gay marriage? They are, afterall contracts. I noticed he was dialing like mad to keep his black, conservative churches in line … by every stat the most resistant group to “gay marriage”… he needs his bedfellows too… black Americans are the least supportive of LGBT rights of any demographic group….he is one busy busy busy Prez trying to convince them it was all BS for votes and money. He’s not for real… get it yet? That’s his 96% group. Hell even most of the FOX news commentators support gay marriage. Coalition building… both sides, and in this election cycle… no one is eye balling whomever will vote the ticket… either side.
May 14, 2012 at 6:26 pm #756812
kootchmanMemberjamminj… who pushed to privatize the military? I admit draftees were a lot harder to manage … but there was universal agreement on both sides of the aisle that an all volunteer force was in the national interest. Left and right embraced the notion and the generals loved it. Funny how that worked out though… now that they cost so much… (soldiers, sailors, Marines, etc) force protection is job number one…. our lethality is beyond the imagination of a 1968 grunt… where 300 casualties to take a firebase was “ok”…. we’d do the same today with probably none. Hell, with remote Predators and sensors, we don’t even need the hill tops anymore. I’ll gladly pay the cost.
May 14, 2012 at 9:47 pm #756813
JoBParticipantoops
i meant Glass-Steagall not Grahman-Rudman but it seems nobody noticed anyway
kootch..
I don’t know where you have been dude, but the biggest hit the middle class has taken is to employment…
the housing market and the hit to wall street took a huge bite out of middle class assets..
but employment uncertainty threatens their ability to survive.
just about half of Americans are now income insecure.. that means they are living paycheck to paycheck hoping the next paycheck arrives.
how exactly is Romney going to fix that when he thinks the American economy consists of American businesses and if anyone is poor the safety net will cover them?
has he not noticed that those tea party republicans are cutting funds for the American safety net as we speak?
give it a rest kootch.
Romney the savior of America?
Not unless you are the 1%….
May 14, 2012 at 10:47 pm #756814
kootchmanMemberNo he is not. No more than anyone else is. Unemployment is tough, but it has been worse. It was a hell of lot worse in the Carter years… not a rep/Dem thing..but it was. As much as the economy stalled.. and much production capacity was lost, we didn’t lose 6.5 trillion in home values. As we have now. How do you think MOST small businesses got their venture capital? Second mortgages. Lots of them. Try that today. I am sorry, nothing in the “we the people” document says paycheck security is a right. It is a condition you have the freedom to create. Funny thing… but for a LOT of people who were not tied to mortgages… they are going “what recession?”… or had mortgages they assumed before Congress went hog ass wild over CRA loans and sub prime loans…. if you can’t see the relationship.. I give up. I look at the data… the concentration of unemployment is in HS or less educated, non-professionals… it’s not that much worse for the middle class who worked in the bulk of the economy, service and information. Yea, you can show me exceptions to the rule.. but that’s the point they are exceptions. The second is no new jobs for the scrubby faces out of college.. but that is how I go here in a 1962 IH school bus…. there were none on the East Coast as Steel and autos were dying off… and the term rust belt was coined. 8 years later… we recovered..and then some… yes indeed we are going to cut some of the safety net… what do you propose 20 trillion in deficits? Better take a long long look at that pie chart of how the government spends your money….. it’s safety net. Or did you happen to note that almost 9% of all government spending is paying off debt expense.. by the time Obama is done… that will be more than what we spend on national defense. Here’s your presidentis; budget.. YOU cut 16 trillion out of it over the next 10 years… where do you want to start.. cut defense 50% ? Fine… then what? Raise the Buffett rule? and raise taxes on two income homes over 250K.. that doesn’t even cover the interest payment on the debt. Where would YOU cut.. here’s the list.. oh, yea … and Obamacare isn’t even in the equation.
Here’s the best summation… of Obama politics… remember the Democratic controlled Senate flat out rejected the Buffett Rule
“The Buffett Rule failed in the Senate last week and the House will not be bringing it up. The plan was never to pass it but to play politics. This is simple partisanship and class warfare. Class warfare is defined not as recognizing the growing income disparity between the middle and upper class, but demonizing successful demographics in order to create jealousy and resentment in the masses for the purpose of winning elections.
While Mr. Romney will not be able win in 2012 by creating fear in the electorate, neither will Mr. Obama. Mr. Obama should stop wasting our time with this gimmickry and do what he can to grow the economy and lower unemployment, that is what the American people want from him.”
This should be interesting….. Eliminate what? Show me the cuts. Before you go off a deep end…. even Obama admits we need a flatter corporate income tax… jobs come to investment friendly countries…
May 14, 2012 at 10:59 pm #756815
JoBParticipantkootch..
i am double posting this just for you
the magic of private equity investing
my personal subtitle…
where all those jobs went…
a hint is that it isn’t the same place they went in the Jimmy Carter years…
those we could get back
these aren’t likely …
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