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August 26, 2008 at 11:23 pm #632647
beachdrivegirlParticipantNR,
Obama has a record of change. McCain, as Walfredo pointed out, has a voting record of 95% with the current administration. the very current administration that is the very hated administration, per you. Brings me back to the ole’ saying that actions (voting record) speak louder than words …
August 26, 2008 at 11:27 pm #632648
beachdrivegirlParticipantObama showed that he is change with his VP selection by showing that he is a different kind of politician– not afraid to listen to those who may disagree with him or are very strong in their own right.
All McCain has done is cave on the very issues he so strongly was in support of just four years ago…..not the change i am looking for.
August 26, 2008 at 11:29 pm #632649
JenVMemberTo say one candidate is or is not acting like a politician is ridiculous. A politician can act toward change, and vote toward change and still act like a politician. the fact that McCain has voted with the current administration proves he is not for change, while Obama’s record proves he is. All these annoying buzz words from the media. It can be said simply enough like BDG did above- voting records speak louder than words- and people who look at that- rather than regurgitating what Faux News tells them to -know the difference.
August 26, 2008 at 11:31 pm #632650
walfredoMemberSo in your estimation Obama is being a hypocrite by pledging change when he is running as the first African American candidate of a major party ever, when he differs from the current administration on health care, Iraq, Afghanistan, torture, the supreme court, Roe v. Wade, international diplomacy, tax law, infrastructure development, etc. etc. etc.
On the other hand, of course McCain is upfront and honest, and offers no hypocrisy offering change despite supporting the current administration on every significant position of policy.
Makes sense. Not sure how I missed that.
August 27, 2008 at 12:27 am #632651
JoBParticipantagain.. a tip of the hat to those who took more time with their answer than i would have.
I’d rather make watermelon salad…
really, you should try this…
watermelon (cubed)
feta cheese
fresh mint
oil & vinegar dressing…
suit yourself as to proportions.. we tend to put in more feta and more fresh mint than most.. and use balsamic and olive oil.. but it is good with a sprinkling of feta and mint and your favorite italian…
August 27, 2008 at 12:33 am #632652
beachdrivegirlParticipantu r making me hungry! and speaking of solids i tried a new one recently wiht grilled avocado, grilled red onion, tomotoe, and balsalmic and olive oil…maybe next time i will throw in some feta in there too
August 27, 2008 at 1:21 am #632653
AnonymousInactiveBDG, so happy to hear you’re eating solids now :)
August 27, 2008 at 1:36 am #632654
AnonymousInactiveI don’t know, BDG, I wasn’t so sure that Biden was the choice you would have wanted.
I’m surprised if it is.
Btw, I hardly ever watch “Faux News” which is funny because I am constantly accused of allowing “Faux News” to think for me.
August 27, 2008 at 2:10 am #632655
JoBParticipantBGD..
thanks i have guacamole in the fridge and plenty of fresh tomatoes… sounds like a good beginning for a new take on salad… maybe with some fresh grilled jalepenos… i have those ready to pick too.
August 27, 2008 at 2:19 am #632656
beachdrivegirlParticipantYes, JT, after 25+ years it is exciting to have moved up into the world of solids.. i had know idea what i had been missing. :)
Biden wasnt my first choice but he wasnt my last either. I think he actually is going to surprise most of Obamas supporters with his new role in the campaign!
August 27, 2008 at 2:28 am #632657
SaraMemberWhich candidate will cause the least harm? Who wants more war the most? Where are they going to get the new soldiers for more fighting? Who is going to go? Who will repair, or at least try to repair, the economy? What about the domestic stuff like jobs, healthcare, schools? Will the U.S. still be a whole country 25 or 50 years from now?
August 27, 2008 at 2:51 am #632658
beachdrivegirlParticipantSara, Obama is the answer to your questions.
August 27, 2008 at 3:30 am #632659
MagpieParticipantNo Way, No How, No McCain…what a great quote!!
August 27, 2008 at 3:32 am #632660
MissKMemberHope and Change is in the air!!!! Obama/Biden all the way.
August 27, 2008 at 6:01 pm #632661
KenParticipantAs has been made clear by Republicans commenter’s here current and former, they think we hate Bush personally. They cannot seem to understand that it is the policies, lies, and ideas we hate.
The current president and his administration probably treat their puppies and children well and maybe even their neighbors and co workers.
But they have no empathy that can stretch beyond their arms. That means when they read the same history or literature that we do, they get an entirely different input.
Machiavelli’s The Prince and Orwell’s 1984 both read like a pair of cook books with detailed recipes for authoritarian domination when you have little or no empathy.
August 27, 2008 at 6:16 pm #632662
AnonymousInactiveKen – As long as I have been a member of this forum, I don’t recall claiming, or being witness to a claim, that anyone here “personally” hated Bush.
In order to “personally” hate someone, I would think you would have to “personally” know them. Obviously no one here does.
It’s very obvious that it is the “policies, lies and ideas” of the current administration that most Dems hate.
On that note, I find it unfair to accuse anyone of lacking empathy without knowing them personally. Of course, you feel that some of their policies and ideas reflect a lack of empathy, but you have based that decision only on what you have decided that they get out of history or literature.
Are you suggesting that anyone who sees things differently than you do lacks empathy?
August 28, 2008 at 6:22 am #632663
JoBParticipantNo, i think Ken is suggesting that those who think the answer to poverty is for the poor to work harder lack empathy.. or those who think that giving vets benefits including adequate medical care will only encourage them not to re-enlist lack empathy… or those who consider the appalling number of Iraqi civilian casualties collateral damage lack empathy…
need i go on?
i suspect i am too tired and cranky tonight to even begin to be polite about this.
at what point do you get that this isn’t some game?
People aren’t game pieces… counting coup and making points has real life outcomes…
and perhaps you aren’t far enough up the food chain for those outcomes to miss affecting you.
August 28, 2008 at 7:20 am #632664
AnonymousInactiveJoB – I don’t appreciate you talking down to me, or getting obviously angry with me simply because I am voicing my opinion or challenging something someone says (which Ken is incredibly capable of handling himself – please let him speak for himself).
What makes you think that you are more passionate about your personal views than I am about mine. Or that your views trump my views in importance?
I’m tired as well, I’m tired of being the big, bad, unsympathetic Republican simply because my views and opinions differ from yours.
I see things differently from you. Like Ken spoke of earlier, I look at history and can probably take from it something entirely different than what you would.
Does that mean I lack empathy, I am close-minded, I don’t want to help my fellow Americans or that I am racist? No. And I would appreciate it if that assumption would stop being made about me, repeatedly.
August 28, 2008 at 2:59 pm #632665
beachdrivegirlParticipantSo now that it has come out that Bidens son will be being deployed to Iraq soon enough it seems that McCains “veteran” card will be moved down on the totem pull…any Republicans out there feel a little more threatened???
August 28, 2008 at 3:48 pm #632666
JoBParticipantNew Resident…
I have tried several times now and there just isn’t any polite way to say this.. so i am just going to say it.
if the only defense of your position is that someone else just doesn’t agree with you and therefore assumes something about you.. then you are likely to feel that you are being talked down to when people reply.
“Are you suggesting that anyone who sees things differently than you do lacks empathy?”
If you feel the republican position on issues or your own position on issues shows empathy… or whatever claim it is that you are protesting, then tell us how they do so…
because quite frankly, your defensive pose when confronted with others opinions doesn’t merit much.
August 28, 2008 at 5:07 pm #632667
KenParticipantReadings for conservatives who can handle a bit of self examination.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20070905.html
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20070921.html
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20070925.html
And an easy to read guide to empirical studies of right wing authoritarian followers and the social dominators who lead them.
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
Excerpt from Chapter 3 (with permission by the Author)
5. Blindness To Themselves
If you ask people how much integrity they personally have, guess who pat themselves most on the back by claiming they have more than anyone else. This one is easy if you remember the findings on self-righteousness from the last chapter: high RWAs think they had lots more integrity than others do. Similarly when I asked students to write down, anonymously, their biggest faults, right-wing authoritarians wrote down fewer than others did, mainly because a lot of them said they had no big faults. When I asked students if there was anything they were reluctant to admit about themselves to themselves, high RWAs led everyone else in saying, no, they were completely honest with themselves.
Now people who abound in integrity, who have no faults, and who are completely honest with themselves would seem ready for canonization. But we can wonder if it is really true in the case of authoritarian followers, given what else we know about them. So I have done a simple little experiment in my classes on several occasions in which I give some students higher marks on an objective test–supposedly through a clerical error–than they know they earned. High RWAs, for all their posturing about being better than others, are just as likely to take the grade and run as everyone else. But I ‘spect they forget such misdeeds pretty quickly. Selfrighteousness comes easily if you can tuck your failings away in boxes and put them at the back of the shelf.
In fact, despite their own belief that they are quite honest with themselves, authoritarians tend to be highly defensive, and run away from unpleasant truths about themselves more than most people do. Thus I once gave several classes of students, who had filled out a booklet of surveys for me, personal feedback about how they had done on a measure of self-esteem. Half the students were told they had scored quite high in self-esteem, and the other half were told they had scored quite low. (These scores were assigned at random, which I confessed to them at the end of the experiment.) I then told them these self-esteem scores predicted later success in life, and I would bring copies of the evidence supporting the scale’s validity to the next class meeting for all the students who wanted to see the evidence.
High RWAs were quite interested in finding out the test was valid IF they thought they had done well on the scale. But if they had been told they had low selfesteem, most right-wing authoritarians did not want to see evidence that the test was valid. Well, wouldn’t everyone do this? No. Most low RWA students wanted to see the evidence whether they had gotten good news, OR bad news about themselves.
What do you think would happen if someone gave right-wing authoritarians a list of all the things that research has found high RWAs are likely to do–such as be prejudiced and conformist and supportive of government injustices? The respondents are simply asked, for each characteristic, “How true do you think this is of you, compared with most other people?†(Are you more prejudiced? Are you more of a
conformist? Etcetera.)
High RWAs show little self-awareness when making these comparisons. Sometimes they glimpse themselves through a glass, darkly. For example they agree more than most people do with, “I like to associate with people who have the same beliefs and opinions I do.†But they have no idea how much they differ from others in that way. And most of the time they get it quite wrong, thinking they are not different from others, and even that they are different in the opposite way from how they actually are. For example they are sure they are less self-righteous than most people are–which of course is what self-righteous people would think, isn’t it? And
when I give feedback lectures to classes about my studies and describe right-wing authoritarians, it turns out the high RWAs in the room almost always think I am talking about someone else.
August 28, 2008 at 5:38 pm #632668
JoBParticipantKen,
I think this is true of any group who have accepted ideology over evidence… and it is likely to be more true of teenagers than of adults.
that said… the process of self examination isn’t for sissies.. is it?
New Resident…
i would be far less likely to respond to your posts in a dismissive manner if you told us what you actually think and why you think it.
i know you don’t like my anecdotal responses, but you know what i think, why i think it and why my experience tells me it is the right thing to think.
a touch long winded perhaps :) but thorough.
i don’t know why so many people reject experience. After all, those who survive.. physically, mentally, emotionally, financially… do so because they have learned valuable lessons from both their own experience and that of others they know and trust.
The ability to learn who to trust is itself a product of experience.
August 28, 2008 at 5:42 pm #632669
AnonymousInactiveJoB – I appreciate your suggestion on how I should and shouldn’t debate on this forum.
To suggest that this is all “some game” to me is insulting. To ask, “when are you gonna get that”, is talking down to me.
I’m fully aware that this is not “a game”. This is an extremely important election. I have stated on this forum, time and again, how I think it is exciting because everyone is very involved and passionate.
My whole point, in my post to Ken, was to point out that I agreed that no one hates Bush personally (which he seemed to feel it important to point out), yet he goes on to assign a lack of empathy to people he does not personally know (the same assumption is made about me continuously).
In so many words, Ken was suggesting that the Republican party lacks empathy. I define myself as a Republican and, therefore, took him to task for suggesting such a thing.
It’s really very simple.
BDG – I have always felt that the Republican party should feel threatened in this election.
Ken – Thanks for my daily reading material. Looks like it will keep me busy.
August 28, 2008 at 5:50 pm #632670
ZenguyParticipantI think it would be more appropriate to say that the Republican Party Platform lacks empathy.
I am continually confused as to why the mainstream part of the GOP allows a bunch of right wing cooks to define the party. An example is the controversy over possibly picking a VP candidate that might be pro choice…what will the religious right do? Will they vote for McCain…who are their other choices???
August 28, 2008 at 5:57 pm #632671
charlabobParticipantBob Barr, ZG — I encourage all the extreme right-wingers who feel betrayed to find Barr on the ballot and vote for him. Or write him in. You don’t want that commie, pervert, McCain, do you? I suspect you meant right wing kooks, but I like right-wing cooks much better.
It probably would be more appropriate to say the platform lacks empathy, but, in my experience, so do its adherents, so I’m comfortable with the original wording. :-)
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