LGBT West Seattle

[Anonymous]

This was advertised on a public blog that has 5000 individual readers. Safety can’t possibly be the issue. The LGBT posters here can’t seem to make up their mind if this is a simple get together or a civil rights issue. You yell at NR for turning it into this big thing, and then when she tries to explain her side, she doesn’t understand *our* historical struggle (really big thing). Which is it? And if it’s both, or doesn’t matter, why can’t the conversation continue?

Whether you think she’s right or wrong, confused or manipulative, why the rush to shut her (and all the silent agreement) down? I love these FINAL words. How rude. It is beyond comprehension to me that you guys want to stop dialog. You had your get together. Some of you incorrectly blamed the *controversy* for keeping people away, when you just couldn’t find *your people*. So now, what’s the harm in getting to know each other’s thoughts?

Is there that much fear in examining your own position? You throw around these *safe spaces*, *my people*, terms as if they can’t possible sound inclusive. After all, minority groups can’t be prejudiced. You really should take a moment and listen to how you sound. And you certainly aren’t *my people* if you can’t even talk about it.

I’m going to Larryandgregs with NR.

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[soclwrkrinmotn]

*sigh*

I wasn’t attacking NR.

Maybe because of the work I do, I see too many scared people, who try to find community. People who lost everything they have coming out. Yes, they exist. In Seattle. And like them, I am not feeling too welcome. I have put up being called a few things on this on this blog…and I have tried to explain other people’s point of view, as well as my own.

I wasn’t trying to attack, I was trying to let it go. And there is a need for safe spaces in West Seattle.

Maybe I am in the wrong place with this blog.

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[charlabob]

“those are the people that I tend to gravitate towards. Happy people who like everyone.”

Let me know where anyone finds these people. I, personally, doubt they exist. :-)

People here are forever saying, “OK, this is my final word.” My particular punch line is “So long and thanks for the fish.” Then “we” come back for yet another final word. Here’s mine:

When people attack me directly, call me names, and claim they know me better than I do when, in fact, they don’t know me at all, I tend to feel unhappy and excluded. That’s how I am in the real world and in this world.

JT, you’re absolutely right — it is rude to attempt to shut anyone down. When I read the post bringing up the subject again, I groaned inwardly and aloud, but I didn’t expect it to be silenced.

I’m still not convinced of the “silence means assent,” “rule” but the self-selected “members of this forum” can make up whatever rules they want.

I frankly think it’s really sad that we’ve managed to self-divide yet again. First it was dogs (in public and off leashes), then it was politics. Now we have factions of the LGBT community, factions of the happy people, the charla half who will sadly just avoid choosing sides by staying home, and probably a lot of the 5000 who won’t ever show up at any “gathering,” for fear it might be their turn in the barrel.

<End of obfuscatory rant>

“So long and thanks for the lasagna”

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[Anonymous]

The only point I’m trying to make, is that conversation can be valuable for those who DO wish to continue. This is a public board, not a gay board where abused and frightened closet persons would seek out community.

To beg others to stop talking rather than just exclude yourself from continuing, seems counter productive.

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[Kayleigh]

“When people attack me directly, call me names, and claim they know me better than I do when, in fact, they don’t know me at all, I tend to feel unhappy and excluded.”

You just described much of my experience here. Not that I was perfect, but still.

(NOT talkin’ about Shibaguyz or the LBGT gathering here, either.)

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[Anonymous]

We all get it, Kayleigh.

Try and remember that most members have ALL done their fair share of attacking.

I have, and I’ve received it.

No one has ever been excluded from conversation (or a conversation excluded from being had) until this thread.

This is a forum where ideas, views and opinions are shared and exchanges are had. If you don’t want to participate in a conversation, that is your choice.

If you don’t want to go to a get-together, that is your choice. No one was ever excluded from coming to the BPP. If you felt, somehow, that you were not welcome, that is out of everyone’s hands, as that is your own personal feelings. Everyone who showed up at the BPP had a wonderful time (and there were all walks of life). The proof is in that thread.

It was obvious that there was a level of exclusion with this particular get-together, as others who felt that way spoke up, not just me.

JT – I agree with you 100%. The conversation just won’t be had, unfortunately. But, I’m ready when you are to head over to larryandgreg’s!

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[soclwrkrinmotn]

Perhaps. But maybe there is a frightened person reading this. That was my point. This is a community post, and there are frightened people reading it too. What was the harm of having a “members only meeting” for the first time?

Would folks say the same if I decided to open a Latinos Unidos del Norte chapter in West Seattle? I will put that on the table.

Nor am I perfect, not even close. (But again, Kayleigh is not Shirley, but is surely right. AGAIN. As is charlabob.) And as I told NR, in a separate post, we may not agree, but we are still likeable people. And I have met her and liked her.

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[Anonymous]

socl – ditto.

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[Kayleigh]

“If you felt, somehow, that you were not welcome, that is out of everyone’s hands, as that is your own personal feelings.”

Excuse me while I snort Diet Coke at your hypocrisy. You feel left out and the LBTG folks should hand engrave you an invitation, right?

I didn’t feel left out or unwelcome of the BPP gathering. If I did, you’re right that it would be my problem, and you wouldn’t see me complaining about it on a public internet board.

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[Anonymous]

Well, the point, Kayleigh, is that, in regards to the LGBT get-together, it was exclusive and I was not the only one who could see that.

The BPP happy hour was a gathering of everyone! Never was there question about any person being welcome there.

There was a huge difference.

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[keleeso]

I cannot believe I am getting in this mix!

1. I actually thought it was nice that NR wanted to come meet the ‘family’

2. but I also thought it was strange that any ‘friend’ would want to come without their LGBT person.

3. LGBT people and their friends are as diverse as any other group and we are all at different stages in our lives –

a. I was once afraid to even walk too near my girlfriend in public because I was scared for my life

b. I was threated by men with broken bottles because I walked out of a gay bar

c. then I spoke on ‘gay’ panels trying to help people understand it is not a choice (I only know of one exception and yesterday she married her girlfriend of 55 years)

d. Today I am myself and I live my life as I see fit. For me that means with honor, courtesy, kindness and pride.

I don’t know of another group (that has posted an invitation for a gathering on this blog) that has had their lives threatened for being who they are – I think some people (that includes LGBT)forget that this is one very controversial way of living to some, and some folks just have to take their time trusting that they are going to be ok. I spent years knowing I had these feelings and not feeling safe saying anything – even to my family (who, by the way are wonderful and loving people!) Look at me now. FABULOUS!

I, for one, am agreeing to disagree.

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[Anonymous]

Keleeso, you seem like a nice person. Not sure if I’m being referenced in there or not. But I’m in my 40’s and I vividly remember walking on opposite sides of the street as my girlfriend. Not telling people we even know each other. Denying who we were, living in fear.

I’ve stated before that everything mentioned and spoken of here has happened to me as well. My mother has told me I am possessed by the devil. I am not spoken to by any of my biological relatives.

I’ve been hit, I’ve been spit on, I’ve been called everything you can think of. I’ve lost friends, jobs and a home.

I don’t wish to minimize or negate anyone’s pain or experience. I don’t wish to tell anyone how they should feel or act or where they should be in their journey.

I just don’t think a big public announcement on a widely read internet site is going to afford anyone the kind of safe space some members require. We’re talking about a local coffee shop, not a private home, rented facility, or gay bar.

In my opinion, this specific event is not about safety. Therefore, why can’t we talk about what it is about? Even if it’s a members only club and that is mutually acceptable and desired. Why can’t we talk about the issues it does bring up?

If you combine the multiple threads this one has produced, many people told straight questioners to shut up and move on. Let it die. This isn’t about you. Speaking only for myself, that is not the way to make society as a whole, a safer place.

No matter how wrong or offensive some one else’s position is, the more we talk and know each other, the better it gets. I don’t want my straight friends to be told they are not entitled to their feelings, coming from their position of *privilege*. That is dismissive of their experience.

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[Kayleigh]

You bet it’s different, NewRes. It’s different because people have felt personally attacked here, and might choose to not come because of that, despite a blanket invitation.

MEANWHILE, you feel entitled to come to a group of LBGT people, despite valid reasons why those people would prefer to feel safe. And those people insisted repeatedly that it was not personal and not about you at all, and that many have met you and liked you.

It’s different, allright, but I don’t think you understand why.

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[charlabob]

“No matter how wrong or offensive some one else’s position is, the more we talk and know each other, the better it gets. I don’t want my straight friends to be told they are not entitled to their feelings, coming from their position of *privilege*. That is dismissive of their experience.”

I couldn’t agree with you more, JT — Talking more, not less — exploring where we’re coming from — all of that is good and necessary. It’s what I’m used to in the real world. It’s one of the ways in which this differs from the real world. It’s not always encouraged and it doesn’t always work.

I was jumped on (not by you, JT) for saying that *I* didn’t feel uninvited and snubbed by the LGBT event. Maybe I should have felt snubbed. Maybe I’m too dumb to know when I’m being insulted. I wasn’t defending exclusion — I was saying I didn’t feel it. Do I have a right to that opinion?

NR, I’m going to admit something — something of which I’m more than a little ashamed. If you were not one of the rare repubs on the forum, I would probably not have been so wary of your repeating “But why are you snubbing me?” over and over…I would have thought — “g-d, that’s odd. I don’t feel snubbed.” And asked you what the hell you were thinking next time I saw you.

You may have been absolutely innocent–but the tactic you employed is very typical of the right; trying to seem like the victim of some perceived “reverse discrimination.”

I gave you many benefits of many doubts (that’s why I remained silent…even though I was surprised and, truthfully, disappointed.) When House chimed in with his “Strait people club,” I had no doubt about him and attacked with a vengeance. I would do it again.

Then you declared your anger and disappointment that people who had met you should have “defended” you. Hell, I could say the same thing–I suspect even the person who no longer speaks my name would have trouble calling me a hypocrite…maybe a mean, loudmouth, wrongheaded bitch — but not a hypocrite. I didn’t hear a loud chorus objecting to that name calling. (As I said before, your defense of me in the previous instance will always mean more to me than you can imagine.)

JT has made me rethink — this is probably not the venue for setting up anything private or safe. It’s a public space. Actually, the level of trust shown by the Shibaguyz in starting the discussion here is truly amazing. I’m horrified and not surprised that LGBT folks who participated in this discussion received death threats.

This is an anonymous community and there is really no such thing.

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[JoB]

ok..

lets all take a very big very deep breath and let it out slowly…

Kayleigh is right.. this is very very different.

After the reactions today, I find myself agreeing with JT that more discussion is obviously needed. I thought this was just a misunderstanding but it is obviously much more.

It’s a no brainer to me why this group would choose to request that only members of the LGBT community and their friends attend their gathering.

I am unlikely to be beaten because i am older. Nobody cares if i accumulate obscene amounts of craft materials. Noone cares that i am a gimp.. as long as i don’t talk too much about it or demand too much special treatment because of it. Noone even cares much that i chose to rescue a couple of very abused dogs unless they encounter them at their worst… In fact.. most of that just makes me some kind of little old lady cute…

but people do care how those who don’t share the heterosexual lifestyle live… and they often go out of their way to make their displeasure very clear. At best, they are rude. At worst, they are dangerous.

Sexuality isn’t exactly a choice for any of us… (tho how we choose to express it might be)… and if you don’t get that basic concept and what the implications to that are.. then a gathering of LGBT folks probably isn’t a place you belong.

I find it difficult to understand why anyone would be offended by their request for some measure of privacy as they get to know one another.

yes JT, this forum is a public place.. and they were meeting in another public place… but using public spaces only means they run the risk they run any time they appear in public together.. not that they should somehow be asked to increase that risk by inviting everyone.

We are all adults here… at least that is the assumption… and not getting invited to attend a gathering of a group we clearly don’t belong to … is no reflection on any of us.

So.. why did New resident feel offended? Why did the Shibaguyz take it as a political statement when she did? Why did everyone get so intense about this? Those are great questions that clearly could be explored further…

and maybe, if we are lucky, we can exchange thoughts without all that them and us stuff…

if our Forum community members gatherings should have taught us anything at all, it is that we can hold widely divergent opinions and still like one another.

at least we can most of the time…

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[Anonymous]

Charla and JoB, I know you both to be enthusiastic *friends of*. Thank-you for your perspectives and joining the discussion. I appreciate you responding.

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[Anonymous]

I think the HUGE point that, basically, everyone has missed is that I genuinely wanted to meet these folks. I am a friend of and thought it would be nice for the group to know that there ARE people who accept them, no matter what.

That gesture was not wanted at the LGBT get-together. I get that.

I didn’t want to offend anyone. I simply wanted to let the group know that they had a friend in me.

Once House started his thread (that did bother a lot of people), I think a lot of that anger was directed at me. Because at that point, I was not understanding why a gathering of the LGBT community would not want everyone who supported them to come.

That’s right, charla, I didn’t understand that. I do not know who attacked you for not feeling “snubbed”, but I know that it wasn’t me.

Again, the intent, at least on my part, was not to offend anyone, but to open myself up to people. I feel good that at least some people can see that.

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[charlabob]

Thank you, JT — it means a lot to me!

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[JoB]

NewResident…

i didn’t miss that point.. that is why i thought a huge part of this really was a misunderstanding…

on both sides.

and you are right, once anger surfaces, it is often misdirected…

i think meeting that group will be easier at general gatherings they choose to attend in greater numbers as they become more comfortable with each other and with us… because we will all be meeting them as individuals, not as members of any one particular group.

in the meantime.. do you knit? i think we may be putting a knit in together:) we might even have people who are willing to teach if you want to learn. I bet your daughter would enjoy that.

JT..

i found the political issues thread you started and posted there…

you started a really great thread. thank you. sorry i didn’t find it sooner.

of all people.. we can thank TheHouse that i found it at all;-)

charla…

i speak your name… and i don’t think i have ever called you any of those names… i am reminded of you every day in a good way as your painting graces my office…

i have never understood why the personal animosity got out of hand as we share a good many opinions…

so in the spirit of giving the benefit of the doubt.. why don’t we declare an amnesty and simply forget there ever was a problem.. and try to give one another the benefit of doubt if it ever crops up again.

i’m game if you are.

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[charlabob]

“charla…

i speak your name… and i don’t think i have ever called you any of those names… i am reminded of you every day in a good way as your painting graces my office…

i have never understood why the personal animosity got out of hand as we share a good many opinions…

so in the spirit of giving the benefit of the doubt.. why don’t we declare an amnesty and simply forget there ever was a problem.. and try to give one another the benefit of doubt if it ever crops up again.

i’m game if you are.”

Game, set and match, JoB — you’re on!

thank you.

charla

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[Anonymous]

I am really touched!

I love that, charla and JoB!

Good luck and here’s to enjoying friendship, in all it’s shapes and forms!

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[JoB]

AWWWW…

now let’s all enjoy 5 seconds of the warm and fuzzies and move on or the forgetting part won’t work so well for us:)

you are welcome Charla…

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[keleeso]

JT, I did not intend to address my comments to you, but I suppose I could been thinking of you when I was responding (post 111). I actually just wanted to state the one big difference between being a member of the LGBT (and their friends!) group and any of the other groups that I have seen post gatherings here – and that is that people have very strong feelings about us and our lifestyle and many of us have felt threatened. That is it. (sorry it took me so long to catch up -I got caught up in a book and had a late soccer game!)

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[JoB]

keelso…

what book? a reader just can’t resist asking what someone else is reading:)

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[keleeso]

Right now I am reading Origin, by Diana Abu-Jaber. I am also in a silly series of books about a female bounty hunter-they are by Janet Evanovich. My next book will be A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth

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[Author]

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