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April 10, 2009 at 3:42 pm #664074
JoBParticipantcjboffoli…
this is a program for rural chinese and will come with clinics.. apparently the health of china’s rural farmers has become so precarious that the govt took notice.
but it is a step we haven’t taken.
April 10, 2009 at 3:46 pm #664075
JoBParticipantalki_2008
i am not ducking the website issue.. but i think this is the special we were watching the other night… maybe..
http://www.cpbn.org/program/where-we-live/episode/wwl-healthcare-america
i’ll do some research for a good website later. right now i have a massive headache.. my jaw now knows a tooth is missing and it doesn’t seem to be happy:(
as for the amenities we enjoy in America.. they are available in a lot of developed countries… we checked into australia at one time since they were looking for people with hubby’s skills.
if i wasn’t so attached to my family we might be living there now:)
April 10, 2009 at 3:48 pm #664076
beachdrivegirlParticipantCJ thanks for the statistic as well as the great question. You are challenging me today which I appreciate. Happy Friday!
April 10, 2009 at 3:55 pm #664077
JoBParticipantHMCRich
“1990 study by the Progressive Policy Institute showed that the difference between black and white crime rates dissappeared once you took single mothers out of the equation.”
this still begs the question of how so many single mothers were created in the first place. And for that you need to look in the 70s at welfare policies…
I worked in one of those communities during the early 70s and saw many families divorce due to a lack of jobs available for African American males… families divorced so that the mothers could get welfare and medical care for their children.
This is a cycle that our policies had a hand in creating.. blaming them for the results 20 years or 40 years later when “times” have supposedly changed doesn’t remove our complicity.
Blaming single mothers for the the conditions that now perpetuate single motherhood in the African American community does nothing to solve the problem…
A jobs program aimed at that community would have done wonders decades ago and would still do a great deal to eliminate the problems inherent in single parenthood.
An education program for new fathers wouldn’t hurt…
and requiring fathers to provide an equivalent lifestyle and opportunity for their children after divorce to that they provided during the marriage… making divorce much less attractive…
single moms get a pretty bad rap in our society when they take on the responsibility of raising the children they brought into this world.. even if they have to do it on their own.
and while i find myself on this soapbox… and this is not aimed at you HMCRich..
it really galls me that the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are those who are “pro-marriage” .. venting their collective spleen on the single women who end up raising the children they didn’t abort while those same people vote against any programs that would help those women raise those children responsibly and bitch about welfare moms.
ok.. off the soapbox now.
parenting is one issue.. single moms another.
April 10, 2009 at 3:58 pm #664078
JoBParticipantalki_2008
soemthing we can all agree on…
“This statement was shocking: “Medicaid programs in 11 states actually provide infertility treatments to single women on welfare” Welfare reform is sorely needed. “
since medicare programs in most states are currently routinely denying preventative care for chronically ill patients.
and i have to admit.. Octo-mom disgusted me…
April 10, 2009 at 4:10 pm #664079
JoBParticipantHMCRich..
I don’t think we can see eye to eye on the war in Iraq.
yes, we caught a despot.. but not a despot who was threatening to our country or who was fostering terrorism against us.
And in the process of invading a muslim country we gave ammunition to those who were recruiting terrorists.. creating an entirely new wave of terrorism in the middle east.
the father of my greatgrandbaby.. yes, my grandaughter’s legally wedded husband… is doing his time in Iraq as we speak from the pilot’s seat of a helicopter… I am not so tickled about all of those newly minted terrorists with their anti-aircraft guns right now.
that was a pretty expensive “victory”. I just hope my family doens’t pay more for it than my greatgrandbaby can afford.
in the meantime.. while we squandered resources in Iraq, those who perpetrated the acts of 9-11 have solidified their bases and recruited new members.
Had we spent .1% of the money we have spent on the war in Afghanistan rebuilding that country and providing schools we wouldn’t need to be there now.
Education and the opportunity it brings is a much more effective way of fighting terrorism than military presence.
But we didn’t and are now paying for the failures of our policies in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
I am not sure bringing all of the troops home today is the solution, but i prefer that to keeping them there indefinitely in a fight we can’t win with military might.
I have lived through the debacle that was Vietnam and hoped never to see the like again in my lifetime. It seems we haven’t learned much.
you said “The military acts on the orders of the President and Congress. You want to change that, then your group and other individuals need to elect different people who mirror your thoughts. “
sadly, we thought we did that.
April 10, 2009 at 4:30 pm #664080
JoBParticipantHMCRich..
part of the rhetoric i had the most trouble with in the letter to Obama is the anti-zionist rhetoric.
However, it as not as simple any longer as just leave Israel alone. Israel is not leaving Palestine alone.
You left out the wall that Israel has built in Gaza or the incentives for Israeli settlement or the fact that the ordinary Palestinian is being brutalized by the terrorists from within and the Israeli army from without. And lets not forget the current wave of political militarism in Israel right now.. or the American interest in keeping Israel militarily strong.
ignoring the complexity is another example of polarity that defeats the purpose… peace in the middle east.
April 10, 2009 at 4:43 pm #664081
charlabobParticipantFact: Israel has had nuclear weapons for a long time — longer (I think) than India and Pakistan. How did/do they get away with it?
<The rest is my not at all humble opinion>: The current Israeli government is corrupt and inhumane. We can’t avoid it by attacking anyone who says it. In fact, it will never get better if we do so. Jews in the diaspora (of which I am one) are more zealously supportive of whatever Israel does than Israelis are. Why? Well, we’re saying, “Let’s you and him fight and we’ll be proud of you and go to fund raisers.”
I won’t go into religious history because I think all religions are guilty of the things HMC lays at the feet of Muslims. (Yeah, I’m pretty much a nonreligious Jew.) But I will say that a few more folks than “one Palestinian” are guilty of supporting Hitler: the current Pope (and the Pope who served when Hitler did), George W. Bush’s grandfather, the patriarch of the Kennedy family .. the list is long.
For another view of the Palestinian “conflict” check this web site. It’s liberal Jewish lobby, established by Jews who don’t support current Israeli foreign policy. And that’s all it is — foreign policy couched in “How dare you criticize us — we’re Israel.”
When you follow the link, watch the video of Avigdor Lieberman — Foreign Minister in the new government (like our Secretary of State). For those of you who are political junkies, imagine if Obama (or McCain) decided to appoint Tom Tancredo as Secretary of State. Then be very afraid.
April 11, 2009 at 5:43 am #664082
HMC RichParticipantHi Charlabob. I must admit I prefer the message from the Messianic jews. I got kicked out of a leather store on Houston street in NY quite few years ago because my hair was too long. GET OUT!!!! At least at the camera store the guys there sold me a great lens and bag for my camera.
You forgot Lindbergh too. The list is long.
You are right about them having the bomb. They haven’t used it, Thank God. Usually when someone develops the bomb, nobody else can stop them. I look at Pakistan and India and wonder when, not if, they decide to trade blows. It is frightening.
Most religions are guilty of many things but none compare to the secular destruction of humanity in the amount of deaths. You are right to leave that out.
Also, it would be really silly for one group to want to take on all of Islam and its 1.4 Billion followers.
I have no problem with the Islamic faith as long as it is not used to subvert another Muslim or other persons through violence. Nor do I want Hindu, Christian or other religion forcing a combat situation. I do feel sorry for the people of Lebanon. There you had a wonderful country but religious and ethnic hatreds have torn that country apart.
I remember flying down to San Jose one time and a young follower of Islam was trying to convert me. He was so ernest. I have to give him credit for trying.
Oh Gross, my cat just hurled! Avi Lieberman will certainly shake things up. His party certainly knows how to do that. I think he makes a lot of people hurl. His statements are very explosive at times. His party was a larger minor player this last election. I read up on all of the candidates and parties running last year. What a variety.
Ahh, Israeli coalitions. Could a more strange thing ever happen? Maybe in Italy. In the new coalition, Lieberman’s party is farther right and very in your face. I suspect he will talk his way of his job eventually. He will be a thorn in Netanyahu’s side at times, and he will make his enemies know what is on his mind.
JoB, the security fence didn’t used to be there. It was put up to protect Israeli citizens. Or put another way, How many jewish people crossed into the West Bank to be a Suicide Bomber? The IDF retaliates when provoked.
A basic tenet of Islam is that once a territory is held by the faith, it always belongs to them. Obviously Jew and Islamic Arab (and a few Persians) disagree on quite a few items.
The state of Israel finally pulled out of Gaza. They ejected Israeli citizens who didn’t want to leave. They left it to the Gazans to run and what happened? Fatah and Hamas had a civil war. Now there are two Palestinian “homelands”? That doesn’t make sense. Israel is not going to give up Jerusalem. Ever.
Ohlmert was in charge recently. Leftist policies. Not your right wing hawk. The new government just got in. Just like Obama they are going to change things. It was a while ago that the conservatives were in charge in Israel. I disagree with your point.
I pray for your Grandson in law to be safe and return home soon. The war on terror is being waged in countries all over the world, not just Iraq and Afghanistan. The Bush doctrine, although unpopular, has taken out many killers. More will crop up. Too many released Guantanamo former prisoners are back on the front lines. They hated Bush because he didn’t cut and run. They are going to push this Administrations buttons. Saddam really thought we would not attack and ignored every sanction against him. Place blame on Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton for pulling out of conflicts. Bin Laden saw what happened in Somalia and that convinced him the US was weak and had no backbone.
Blame Bin Laden and Al Queda for Iraq. If the two towers had not been attacked, I do not think we would have attacked Iraq. I could be wrong. We will never know.
Regardless. I do want our military personnel home. I do want a reduction in forces at various points around the world. I also want “Americas Enemies” to go away, but I don’t think they will. I want to err on the side of strength instead of weakness.
April 11, 2009 at 5:50 am #664083
HMC RichParticipantIf the Swiss form of healthcare is considered single payer, then I am all for it.
April 11, 2009 at 6:01 am #664084
HMC RichParticipantSchools. Private schools usually perform better than public schools. Just look at the kids in DC. There was a program to help low income families give their kids a better educational chance by letting them get vouchers for these private schools. That was recently shot down by Congress and the President. So much for a good education for the less fortunate.
If public schools want to be better, then follow the practices of the successful private and public schools. Unfortunately unions, administrations and parents just can’t seem to agree on very much these days and our public schools are falling further behind.
Overhaul the system. Surely a D student in math cannot keep up with an A student. I know. I was the C student in math. I was the A student in English. (It doesn’t show these days) Smaller class sizes for various levels in the curriculum.
Dress code. Dress code. (affordable dress code).
Parent participation mandatory for at least five days per school year. Just a few thoughts.
April 11, 2009 at 6:11 am #664085
JoBParticipantHMCRich..
a security fence that jogs to cut off the fields of a Palestinian farmer isn’t built just for safety… when you cut farmers off from their fields, they can’t plant. When they can’t plant, they starve.
The Israelis are starving those in Gaza.. not even letting humanitarian aid through much of the time.
and have you seen photos of that wall? from Israel it’s a hillside.. from Palastine it is a block wall surrounding a ghetto.
I don’t see that as strength.
As for the strength that Bush Jr showed.. i am afraid that was more hubris than strength. That was supposed to be a 6 week incursion not a 6 year war.
How much strength does it show when you don’t meet your objectives and end up with a larger, deadlier problem than your started with?
not much.
Invading a country because you can is not a show of strength it is a show of aggression..
he didn’t even successfully wage the battle of the bullies.. unless you count hunting down and hanging Saddam Hussein as some major achievement…
he did get great contracts for our oil companies though.. if we can stabilize the country enough so that they can hang onto them… but at a cost that we will be paying for generations… in far larger currency than dollars.
strength? not a kind of strength i can admire.
April 11, 2009 at 6:17 am #664086
JoBParticipantI don’t personally think the swiss health care system is the best answer.. but it is certainly a far better option than what we have now…
of course, it is exceedingly regulated which is why it is feasible for participants.
the swiss require everyone to purchase health insurance but regulate pricing to insure that basic care is affordable for all.
I still can’t figure out why there is so much resistance to the government doling out health care… and so little to insurance companies doing so without much regulation and every incentive to deny care.
is it because government is the bogey word?
April 11, 2009 at 3:27 pm #664087
mrhinehMemberWow. I have to applaud the participants here for a thoughtful, insightful, and respectful discussion on what could have been an explosive subject. Cheers!
Thoughts about, is the Canadian health care system one to model after?
April 11, 2009 at 3:52 pm #664088
JoBParticipantHMCRich…
private shcools are much better funded than public schools.. especially when we hand them vouchers for every disadvantaged student they choose to take on… thereby cutting funding for public schools.
public schools have to take all children. private schools choose who they will admit.
i wonder if those two factors affect the data?
April 11, 2009 at 4:02 pm #664089
JoBParticipantmrhineh…
i don’t know enough about the Canadian health care system to give a comprehensive answer.
i do know a great deal about treatment here in the United States and in the Canadian system for a particular set of chronic illnesses, fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome because i met more than a fair number of Canadian patient advocates at medical conferences over a couple of decades and we have continued to correspond…
the treatment for these two disorders is actually more comprehensive in Canada and the current definitive paper on treatment for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome came out of treatment in Canadian clinics.
It is only marginally better than treatment here.. and far more research is done here.
I haven’t seen stats comparing the length of time to diagnosis in Canada and the US, but my anecdotal evidence would leave me to believe they are diagnosed quicker and treated earlier in the Canadian system.
That said, no-one with these illnesses is tickled with the level of medical care for fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome on either side of the border.
and a system that appears to work reasonably well for patients in Australia, New Zealand and Canada does not get high marks from the same patient population in England or Ireland.
Perhaps judging a system on the basis of a somewhat “controversial” illness is not a good comparison, but it is the one i have access to.
April 11, 2009 at 4:21 pm #664090
JoBParticipantwiki actually turns out to have a pretty good entry on single payer health care systems
April 11, 2009 at 6:57 pm #664091
alki_2008ParticipantAbout Canadian health care. I’ve heard, from some Canadian colleagues, that treatment for some major illnesses (ie, cancer) is not great in Canada. They say that the Canadian health care system will diagnose and treat minor things (broken leg, traumatic injury) in the same timeframe as the US…but when it’s a chronic illness that is best treated sooner than later, then some Canadians travel to the US and pay because waiting for Canadian care is too long. Disclarimer: The experiences communicated to me involved cancer cases (~8 patients from 3 different provinces).
About schools, does WSNPJ oppose private schools…or just the publicly funded charter schools? Hhmmm. Seems like parents that pay for private school are still paying for public schools (ie, property taxes) that they’re not using, so what’s the harm.
April 12, 2009 at 2:23 am #664092
JoBParticipanti oppose funds for public schools going to private schools who have the opportunity to cherry pick their students to keep their performance stats high.
parents who send their kids to private school do help fund public schools.
I like to think of it as their insurance program.. insuring that if something happens and they are no longer financially able to send their children to private school, their children have a quality public school to attend.
of course, to do that, public school funds have to go to public schools.
April 12, 2009 at 2:30 am #664093
JoBParticipantalki_2008…
i know cancer patients from canada who come to the US to specialized clinics to get the kind of care that is only available here in specialized clinics or teaching hospitals…
one thing the US does reasonably well is medical research and cutting edge treatment.
I also know US citizens who go outside their health insurance programs to attend the same clinics…
and i know patients who wish they had the resources to work around their insurance programs to access that kind of treatment.
bureaucracy is bureaucracy, whether it comes in the form of a govt health program that insists on tested treatments or an insurance program that denies care on the same basis.
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