Judge who overturned Prop 8

Home Forums Open Discussion Judge who overturned Prop 8

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 66 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #700701

    WSeaFam2
    Member

    Marrage has just become something to do, with no longterm goals for over 50% of couples who enter into it these days. This is clear by the divorde rates. And those of us who are married or have been married know marrage is HARD.. even when you really love the person you are married to. So, if there are couples out there who are willing to make that plunge and have thought about it enought to fight for it, exposing themselves to the fanatics who damn them Why should they not be allowed too?

    #700702

    DP
    Member

    [Sigh] It irks me that I have to be the one to speak up for a position I don’t even support any more, but until some folks on the Right actually check into this forum, I guess it’s gotta be me.

    Y’all watch this space . . . I’ll be on here tomorrow with “The Case for Traditional Marriage.”

    In the meantime, I’d like you to ask yourselves a question:

    Have I been practicing the same tolerance I demand from others?

    #700703

    WSeaFam2
    Member

    This has nothing to do with tolerance. This has to do with freedom for all in this country, that is what we are supposed to be guarenteed!!!! It is not at the whim of ANY group to impose thier moral or personal belief on marrage or anything else. We are a country ruled by laws not religion. If your religious group or church does not believe in marring any couple, don’t do it. That is your right. However, don’t dictate what I can do in another venue or my life.

    #700704

    dobro
    Participant

    Denying people’s human rights is not something to be tolerated.

    As I mentioned earlier, if you’re making a case for “traditional” marriage, please leave out Christianist quotations or scripture,anything about polls showing a majority of people for it (human rights are not subject to majority rule), political “left-right” conventional “wisdom”, or anything about procreation. We’ll see what’s left.

    #700705

    JoB
    Participant

    dobro…

    i don’t think you can leave out procreation … intentional procreation or the unwanted result of procreation is what creates families and families are what creates a lot of unconventional family partnerships that both need and deserve the protection of the law.

    procreation as the only reason for marriage is another matter …

    #700706

    WSeaFam2
    Member

    When being cross examined even the witnesses that were testifying for prop 8 agreed that children of gay couples would have better quality of life if thier parents were able to marry.

    The statments they made under oath were the best proof that it should have been overturned. So, if even the side against something agrees it is in the best interest for all involved, how could the judge not rule as he did?

    #700707

    oldgrayboarder
    Participant

    Once again I am able to offer my all purpose quote, from the movie “Goldmember”:

    There’s only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people’s cultures and the Dutch.

    Nigel Powers, played by Michael Caine

    #700708

    waterworld
    Participant

    WSeaFam2: From what I have read and heard, the proponents of Prop 8 assumed, unwisely, that the court would focus mostly on existing legal precedent, as opposed to facts determined at the trial. And they unwisely assumed that they did not have any burden to prove that denying gays the right to marry is constitutional. There have been some cases involving equality for gays and lesbians in which the courts have a applied a legal test that effectively precludes a finding that gays and lesbians are entitled to equal rights. Here, though, the judge went a different route altogether, by examining the facts carefully and by applying a different legal test. The Prop 8 proponents had not focused on building a factual case in support of their position; they thought they could win on a strict legal argument. Because of their misplaced focus, they failed to bring in strong and credible witnesses for their position and they failed to prove facts to support their view. I think the judge’s ruling is correct, and I personally believe gays and lesbians are endowed with all the rights and privileges as straight people. But I also think the Prop 8 proponents, had they been better prepared, could have produced witnesses that would have made a better case for their position.

    I guess this is just a long-winded way of saying that although the defenders of Prop 8 put on a lousy factual case, I think they could have done better on the facts if they had actually tried to. So I don’t see their failures in the court record as representing the strongest and best arguments that proponents of Prop 8 could make.

    On an unrelated note: What is the meaning of “Christianist?”

    #700709

    dobro
    Participant

    What are the factual arguments they could have made that could have swayed the court in their favor? Since you think there are some I would guess you could cite them.

    Christianist…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianism

    #700710

    waterworld
    Participant

    That’s presumptuous. I don’t know what facts they would have cited. And personally, I can’t think of any good facts for their case off the top of my head. I was just saying that I’ve read and heard — such as from legal analysts on NPR, — that had they called better witnesses, they might have made a better factual case. And I don’t take that to mean a winnable case, either. I think of it more in terms of the difference between calling, say, Nancy Grace to testify on victim’s rights, or calling the director of the National Center for Victims of Crime or the National Organization for Victim Assistance. No one who is interested in the facts would look to Nancy Grace on that issue.

    But if I were to cite facts, they certainly wouldn’t come from wikipedia.

    #700711

    dobro
    Participant

    I only cited wikipedia to reply to your question and the definition quoted aligns with my usage. Do you think there are no facts on Wikipedia?

    “I think they could have done better on the facts if they had actually tried to.”

    That’s your quote. Why would you think that, if you didn’t have any facts in mind they could have cited? Just because you “heard” somewhere that they could have?

    Thinking for yourself is tough these days when so many people just regurgitate things they’ve been fed instead of thinking them through and using some critical thinking skills to sift facts from agendas.

    And if you were going to cite some facts (it doesn’t seem you are) from where would you deem suitable?

    #700712

    c@lbob
    Member

    Well, DP, I await your promised intelligent case for “traditional” marriage, and I hope it includes a definition of just what a traditional marriage is and what tradition it carries forward.

    I look at loving same sex couples who are denied the right to be together when one of them is ill. Or adoptive parents who come under fire and attempts to take the children away from them, even though they are very good parents. I consider the character in “A Single Man” who was denied going to his partners funeral to mourn.

    I hope your defense of the tradition squares whatever the traditionalists gain from denying gay marriage with the damage it causes.

    #700713

    DP
    Member

    “The Case for Traditional Marriage”

    By David Preston,

    Reluctant Conservative

    —at least until the real thing arrives.

    Argument 1: Tradition

    Tradition is important to the integrity of any society. Naturally, sexual relations (and by extension, marriage) will be among the most tradition-bound institutions society has.

    I doubt that anyone will dispute me so far.

    OK then . . .

    While any social tradition should be flexible enough to adapt to circumstances, those who would try to change a tradition too suddenly, or too drastically, may find that they have “sowed the whirlwind.” This is exactly what has happened, I think, with the gay marriage movement. In case you hadn’t noticed, there is currently a backlash going on, and the backlashers are not all Mormons, either.

    Bear with me a moment now . . . I’m not necessarily trying to make a case against gay marriage. —Yet.

    Until the past decade or so, marriage was considered by a large majority of Americans to be a union between a man and a woman exclusively. Until quite recently no one even raised the question of whether there was a “right”—under the Constitution or any other jurisprudence—for two people of the same sex to get married.

    Following from this, I think it’s safe to say that for the past four hundred years or so, Americans have been getting married under the assumption that, whatever else marriage might be, it is, at the very minimum, a union between a man and a woman.

    This was certainly my grandparents’ understanding of marriage.

    This was my parents’ understanding of marriage.

    This was my understanding of marriage.

    Now, in the last few years, up comes a group of people (it may be a large group, it may be a small group, that’s not the issue) . . . but here come some people who say that no, my understanding, and my parents’ understanding, and my grandparents’ understanding of what marriage is was all wrong. Marriage is not just between a man and a woman, they tell me. It could be between a man and a man, or a woman and a woman.

    Bear with me again for a moment please. I’m just telling you how I’m feeling . . .

    Suddenly, someone is trying to change the meaning of something that’s very important to me. And yet, when I don’t just reflexively go along with the new worldview, I’m called a bigot and a homophobe.

    Um . . . Excuse me?

    —I’m a bigot for not allowing you to redefine this hugely important part of my culture and my life at the drop of a hat?

    I don’t think so. But I’ll tell you what. If you say I’m a bigot, I say you’re a bully. If you say I’m forcing my religion down your throat, I say you’re forcing your agenda down mine.

    And on and on it goes . . .

    Sure, I suppose we could have a power struggle over this for the next twenty years. Guess how much enlightenment that’s going to engender.

    So that’s the gist of the “tradition” argument:

          Tradition exists.

          It’s important.

          Don’t mess with it.

          (Or at least, don’t mess with it lightly.)

           

    Granted that the “tradition” argument is a largely an emotional one. But then, so is the “tradition-be-damned” argument.

    Gay marriage supporters can try to bluster their way through this by claiming that gay marriage is a Constitutional right, a human right, or whatever. But as far as I’m concerned, that is very much open to interpretation, and always will be, until there is specific language inserted into the Constitution that settles the matter one way or another. If you go on the basis of what the Framers intended, then I expect there would be no debate, because the Framers wouldn’t have even entertained the question.

    For them, marriage was 1 man + 1 woman.

    (Sorry Joseph Smith.)

    To be fair, I must acknowledge that the “tradition” argument fails to address one very important question:

    Is the value of a privilege or right that I once enjoyed exclusively somehow diminished if that same privilege or right is given to a (formerly) unprivileged group?

    I’m not sure.

    I used to think: yes, the value of my marriage would be diminished if same-sex couples could get married.

    Now I think: no.

    But the point is that, for me, it wasn’t just a black-and-white choice. And it still isn’t.

    I try to put the question into the context of analogies:

    Should the Boy Scouts be allowed to admit only boys to their ranks? Or is that discriminatory to girls?

    Should the Catholic Church be allowed to require a vow of celibacy from priests and nuns? Or is that discriminatory to people who want to have sex?

    Of course, you can say these other things are nothing like marriage, that marriage is a civil right.

    —Which is true. But to whom, exactly, is this civil right accorded? Or must it be accorded to each and all without any restriction whatever?

    That, my dear Blogsters, is the real question we are debating.

    —And if your reaction is to blurt out No! Of course we know the answer to that one: Gay people have a self-evident right to marry then you, my friends, are engaging in the fallacy known as begging the question.

    End of Argument 1

    –D.P.

    #700714

    dobro
    Participant

    Not doing too well on your argument. Tradition. That’s it? Since that’s the way things have always been, they must stay that way or people will be upset?

    African-Americans were brought to America as slaves and that was fine with the founders. Did we wait long enough to change that? Did we “sow the whirlwind?” After freeing them, we took another hundred years to grant them equal civil rights. Slow enough for you, so several generations go by so no one gets their feelings hurt by the big bully giving people their human rights?

    Sorry, but you really should read the judge’s decision before you embarrass yourself further with this lame BS. And please spare us the condescending “to be continued” lecture on what begging the question is. I’m sure many of us have been to college and logic 101.

    #700715

    dobro
    Participant

    “—Which is true. But to whom, exactly, is this civil right accorded? Or must it be accorded to each and all without any restriction whatever?”

    A brief PS- In 21st century America the answer to your question is-yes, civil rights and equal protection of law (14th Amendment) must be extended to all without restriction. And if you’re one of those Christian folks, you’d realize that human rights are granted by the Creator and that all are entitled to them.

    #700716

    JanS
    Participant

    DP…for you…

    ‎”It is NOT the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to CHANGE.” ~ Charles Darwin

    #700717

    austin
    Member

    The problem with human traditions is that some of them go back a long time. Some of them are so old that they’re actually no longer relevant in contemporary society. The tradition of males and females needing to couple goes way back, to when our world didn’t allow us to know if there were going to be enough humans to perpetuate the species. That is the important factor of the “traditional” marriage- it allows for biological reproduction, which is extremely important in long lived mammals who don’t birth litters facing potential population crises. The same type of “tradition” that is having as many children as the mother is physically capable because before we had an inclusive and cohesive society your family was your culture and workforce and child mortality was extremely high. However, now, tens of thousands of years in the future, our race is no longer pressed with such urgency to reproduce, for the purposes of culture, labor, or redundancy. That’s the real issue here, not marriage: reproduction. And we don’t need as much of it any more. We’re not all subsistence farming anymore. If we were, “traditional” marriage would be a major societal institution instead of the anachronistic cultural artifact that we find ourselves bickering over today. The way it stands male-female marriage should be as relevant to the world today as eating a strictly Kosher diet.

    #700718

    yeah-me
    Participant

    As a single mother who has never been married — there are other types of non-marriage discrimination out there. Try joining a “family” health club without a spouse — you get charged more than the single person and the per person family rate. Try selling a home that has increased in value more than $250k without the “benefit” of a spouse to absorb the rest of the capital gains tax.

    I agree completely that the government should get out of the marriage business!!!!!

    #700719

    WSeaFam2
    Member

    I am the child of a Pastor who is a part of a conservative church in WS. I was raised to read the Bible, and understand that God gives us free will to chose our lives and paths, and that only God should judge us. So, if you are following “tradition” per your moral or religious views then allow people to make thier own decissions per our freedoms provided to ALL people in these United States. NOT the people of your chosing!!! You should not judge your neighbor or you will also be judged, however let’s just hope the God who judges you will be more compassionate.

    #700720

    Ken
    Participant
    #700721

    JoB
    Participant

    DP..

    ok.. if we stick to “modern” traditions…

    in my lifetime…

    the traditions of our society changed to allow divorce. then they changed to make it socially acceptable creating what i suspect are more single parent households by current definition than traditional marriages.

    then the traditions of our society changed to allow for the adoption of children by gay couples and single parents.

    Isn’t it time that our law followed the changes that have already occurred in our society allowing the single parents of children to form partnerships that create structure and financial security for those children?

    for the rest of you i realize this totally begs the question of civil rights.. which i personally believe to be the more valid argument…

    but if DP is going to muddy the water.. i suspect he should see what is at the bottom of the pool.

    #700722

    dobro
    Participant

    Minor nitpick but the correct Bible quote from Hosea 8:7 “They sow the wind and reap the whirlwind”

    #700723

    DP
    Member

    dobro:

    Thanks for the Bible verse correction.

    Actually, the specific points in my “tradition” argument were all secondary to my main purpose, which was simply to refute your claim that . . .

    The whole gay marriage “debate” is BS cooked up by Christianist nuts and RightWing politicians ginning up fear and loathing among ignorant people to get their votes

    As I said I would do, I presented a reasoned argument for traditional marriage.

    Several people I respect on this forum responded to my argument in a similarly intelligent and well-reasoned way. Even you dobro, made a couple of discernible counterpoints, in between the invective.

    —All of which suggests to me that, whether I’ve convinced people with my “tradition” argument or not, I was at least not being a “Christianist nut.”

    Nor was I being a “RightWing politician.”

    Nor was I “ginning up fear and loathing among the ignorant.”

    Therefore, I take your baldfaced assertion that everyone who dares to debate this issue with you is one of the above classes to be false.

    Which is all I was saying in the first place.

    Now then, I would be interested in answering some of the points above, and I could also present some other arguments for traditional marriage as well. But in exchange for the time and effort of doing that, I’m going to ask you, dobro, to admit that you were wrong in your assertion.

    And while you’re at it, I would appreciate a general change of attitude on your part.

    Or failing that, at least an agreement to keep a civil tongue.

    Thank you.

     

    —David

    #700724

    JanS
    Participant

    DP…I gotta ask…are you presenting these points re: traditional marriage, to play devil’s advocate, so to speak, or because it’s your personal opinion of the way it should be? Meaning…how do you personally feel about same gender marriage in the US?

    #700725

    JoB
    Participant

    DP..

    uh.. sorry…

    simply replying to an argument does not validate the original argument.

    nope. sorry. no.

Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 66 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.