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March 24, 2008 at 8:27 am #586609
JanSParticipantMarch 24, 2008 at 1:50 pm #619584
charlabobParticipantThank you, Jan! He’s so right and, sadly, it’s hard to stop once its started. Frankly, it’s very hard to analyze position papers, compare NUANCED ideas, etc. And one of the things I like most about Obama is that he says hard things. Almost as well as Edwards did.
Even worse, we sometimes denounce, renounce *and* embrace at the same time — and hope no one notices.
March 24, 2008 at 3:01 pm #619585
JoBParticipantAgain.. very good words….
And sentiments i.. and i am pretty sure most democrats agree with… and maybe even some republicans if it doesn’t mean supporting a democrat.
but, how well do you think they will play with those who just wanted to share a beer with bubba?
that was just republican round one…
4,000 and counting.
March 24, 2008 at 4:08 pm #619586
JoBParticipanti don’t mean to sound like a spoil sport.. but i am very concerned about the inclination to believe that speech and the ensuing good words are the end of this.
i truly wish it was.. but experience tells me it isn’t.
Anyone remember the idealistic presidencies of McCarthy or Mondale? or the second term of Carter?
idealists all….
there are lessons to be learned there…
In spite of all the kicking and fussing about the Clinton’s tie to big money.. the republican party is the party of big money these days.. and they like things the way they are.. thank you.
Unbridled opportunity…
And the recent realizations that the media might not be playing things fairly ought to alert you to the fact that they also have the advertising money and power to sell what they want.
i don’t mean to be the voice of doom.. but i wish i could be a wake up call.
it’s time to stop patting ourselves on the back for the rightness of Obama’s words and start thinking about how we are going to counteract the wrongness of what is coming…
it’s that or 4 more years of bitterness and thousands more American lives…
March 24, 2008 at 5:45 pm #619587
JanSParticipantJoB…I couldn’t agree more. I get very discouraged about what America listens to, then believes, in the news, on the internet. The media (I know it’s a generalization, and some don’t)slants things the way they want to make it interesting, because if they didn’t they wouldln’t have much of a job. I don’t trust Tim Russert much, and well, Fox, they’re just rumor and hate mongers, IMO. We need to question and dig deeper.
The Repugs will come after us with both guns drawn…and we’d better be prepared.
March 24, 2008 at 6:49 pm #619588
charlabobParticipantOK, watching the Clinton campaign try to demoralize the Obama campaign at every turn is just getting on my nerves. So let me say this in plain English: Obama is going to win the nomination and Obama is going to win the general election. The era of the Republican wing of the Democratic party is over. We put up with dismal nominees for 20 years because we were told “Look what happened to <fill in your favorite semi-progressive candidate>. NOT THIS TIME!
The American(sic) people are ready to be challenged to go beyond “beer with bubba”. They have been since 9/11 or before. And, ya’ know? If they’re not we’re in such trouble that right-wing Democratic band aids won’t help.
I do not understand why there’s not more of a concerted effort to stop Republican efforts to steal the election *ahead of time* by disqualifying or scaring off likely Democratic voters. Could it be because many of the voters they’re targeting are likely to vote for Obama? And the Republican Wing of the Democratic Party doesn’t want that?
Once more: IF CLINTON IS NOMINATED, I WILL WORK FOR HER, AND I WILL VOTE FOR HER.
March 24, 2008 at 7:15 pm #619589
JoBParticipantcharlabob..
i have never assigned motives to you.. i don’t know why you are assigning them to me.
I have voiced these same concerns from the beginning… and they haven’t changed.
And being rude to me won’t shut me up nor will it change the reality.
March 24, 2008 at 7:26 pm #619590
JanSParticipantI think in the end we all (us on here) want the same thing…a democrat for President. We just see different ways of getting there..and there’s nothing wrong with that. JoB, what is “reality” to you may not be “reality” to Charla, or many other people. To me, both of the candidates have both good qualities and bad qualities…whoever the Dem nominee ends up being will get my support.
The “reality” that I see is the Repugs wanting enough infighting amongst the Dems that it overshadows what the real mission is, defeating McCain…and the Repugs are perfectly happy with that, believe me.
March 24, 2008 at 7:48 pm #619591
charlabobParticipantJoB, I wasn’t assigning motives to *you* — your words are not unique to you (though you are particularly, almost frighteningly, articulate.) They are coming hard and fast from all corners of the Clinton campaign. Whenever I reply to one of your posts, part of me says, “Why bother? You can’t say it nearly as well.” You simply made some points which allowed me to say some things that I’ve thought for a long time needed to be said.
I apologize if that seemed rude — it wasn’t meant to be. It was meant to be direct and emphatic. I wouldn’t dream of trying to shut you or anyone else up; I’m surprised you think otherwise. I do dream of the day you come around, but I also dream of being a 21 year-old supermodel. I’m not sure which will come first :-)
I do confess, my new signature is aimed at you. When I feel as if I’m not being listened to, I get a little cranky:
IF CLINTON IS NOMINATED, I WILL WORK FOR HER, AND I WILL VOTE FOR HER.
March 24, 2008 at 8:16 pm #619592
JanSParticipantso…the beat goes on…from today’s news….
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/24/campaign.wrap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
they simply don’t get it….this petty, stupid, accusatory infighting has got to stop. Bill Clinton needs to keep his mouth shut ( I’ve noticed lately that I don’t like him as much as I used to) and go back to work…and Obama aides need to put their brain in gear before their mouths open.
I am soo tired of “you’re not as patriotic as…” and “you sound like Joe McCarthy”, etc…stoopid, stoopid, stoopid…and have no place in this. No wonder people are discouraged.
March 24, 2008 at 8:45 pm #619593
JoBParticipantcharlabob…
is it possible that my words are frighteningly articulate because they hold that illusive grain of truth?
You dream of the day i will come around… and i have told you all along that if he is our nominee… i will support him. i just don’t think it is in our best interests to make him our nominee… and i don’t think that will change.
I am not anti Obama. I am anti… Obama the second political coming… because the guy who is being worshiped right now is not someone i can get elected this fall.
And if he’s our candidate.. that will be my job.
It is impossible to get an Obama supporter to admit and realize that this candidate might have faults… and what do you truly expect to happen when they do?
Because, believe me, all of America is going to hear about every single possible fault this fall.
You think Kerry looked wish washy on the war?
How about Obama’s stand that he has always been against the war alongside his printed admission that he didn’t know how he would have actually voted had he been in office to vote at the time?
And the fact that he has voted to support every funding bill for the war since he has been in office?
What about the angry young black man Obama was? …And those angry black men he continues to associate himself with?
Hillary has been quiet.. but the republicans won’t be.
His current remarks about his grandmother and “white women” afraid to even encounter blacks will make some interesting tv moments. they already have. … his ingratitude to the same people will make more… by his own admission, he chose to go live with his grandparents because they would let him do whatever he wanted…
and the mother he calls simply a woman from (some state in the midwest.. my lapse of memory not his)? …
Do you think his dismissal of this incredibly accomplished woman won’t make for more entertaining discussions on Hammity and Holmes? …”Doesn’t look like Obama thinks much of white women” .. he doesn’t even respect his own mother…
how do you think his statement that perhaps he would have concentrated more on the parent who lived than the one who was absent if he had known she was going to die will sound in that context?
there is enough in Obama’s book alone to make for some exceedingly entertaining newscasts…
and that little matter of his associations…
will he be cast as a liar who did know what those people were up to or a fool who couldn’t figure the obvious out?
possibly a fool.. since only a fool would pay $100,000 dollars more for a piece of property than it’s assessed value… 3.5 times it’s assessed value…
fool or liar? … neither looks too good..
but my guess is that they will go for liar… because it will fit the picture they will paint of him.
my guess is that they will portray all those poor Obama supporters as the idealistic fools… taken by a clever con man…
and a lot of them are likely to believe it when the man they thought above all that… is exposed as nothing more than another political hack… working the room on his way to the top.
i know this won’t stop the rants about my giving Republicans ammunition..
but i haven’t given away anything that hasn’t already been available through the media so far…
what i am worried about is what hasn’t been out yet. And you can be sure there is at least something.
The tragedy in all of this is that even if he is elected.. we are unlikely to get the chance to find out if he could have come anywhere close to meeting the expectations he has created.. because, like jimmy carter.. he will be handed an exploding time bomb of a political mess.
I voted for evolution.. because i think a lifetime of working inside the system actually gave Hillary a chance of pulling us back from the brink of the disaster that the last 8 years have created…
you vote for revolution… I don’t use the term lightly… idealism and thought can be more revolutionary than violence… but history doesn’t give up much hope for the ability of revolutionaries to create peaceful prosperity.
And in our society… by the admission of Obama’s own speech.. there is no revolutionary so dangerous as one of color.
I have never been anti Obama.. i just think evolution first would have created a space that revolution could have flourished in… i tend to look at things in the long term…
But this campaign has destroyed any possibility of that…
I think it is time to acknowledge that Obama isn’t teflon.. and that he is up against far more in this election than any Obama supporter anticipated.
Focus on the real enemy… not Hillary … but what he republican machine will make of Obama.
If you can… maybe we will all stand a chance.
March 24, 2008 at 10:18 pm #619594
JanSParticipanthey…”those angry black men”…goes back to that renouncing and denouncing…
and once we were in Iraq, it’s only natural to vote money…geez, let’s not and leave them with even less than they have now..
and …you talk like he just dismisses his mother, which is not the case..it was only natural for him to want to know about his father’s life.
A liar and a fool…strong words…when we know damned well that Mrs. Clinton does NOT have a perfect past…let’s not fool ourselves.
“no revolutionary so dangerous as color”….he’s a black man…we need to get past that (we…white folks)…are you saying that it will be dangerous if a black man is elected? or just this one?
I think/hope you underestimate him..unless you’re psychic…he is not an idiot, and I’m sure he knows what he’s up against. No, he isn’t made of Teflon…nor is Mrs. Clinton. The only one we’re treating that way right now is John McCain…
Yes, I’m defending him…because I think you’re blinded by Hillary…she is a strong woman also with things in her past(can we say Whitewater?)…and she doesn’t exactly take the high road in things..that’s the turn off for me in her campaign.She’s not above giving the Repugs ammunition herself.And don’t get us started on associations…guilt by associations…I don’t buy into that with him, just as you would have us not buy into that with her…but , of course, her associations were never as bad as his…right?
let us not pretend to ourselves- it’s all dirty politics as usual…it almost makes me want to write in John Edwards (that’s for you, Charla)
you obviously have strong feelings for her..but..what if you’re wrong? there is that possibility, you know..
I’m just at the point where I want to walk away from all of this, because it’s not where we should be focusing…the Repugs are gonna walk into the next presidency easily…and we only have ourselves to thank. We may know better, but there are tons of Americans out there that believe the dirt…especially the dirt that Obama is not truly for America…and I find that disgusting…
just my opinion as usual…
March 24, 2008 at 10:21 pm #619595
JanSParticipantand, Joanne, you know I’ll support her all the way if she’s the nominee…absolutely…I just think we need to take the rose colored glasses off for both candidates…
March 24, 2008 at 10:57 pm #619596
charlabobParticipantThis has clearly become personal — I had originally hoped to just stay away from the Clinton forum — looks like I have to broaden that idea (and be more resolute). I can’t imagine anyone finds this battle any more interesting than I do.
And no, JoB — you haven’t run me out; my common sense and respect for the community has.
Don’t write in John Edwards, Jan (though I know you were kidding). One last time —
I WILL WORK FOR CLINTON IF SHE’S NOMINATED AND VOTE FOR HER IN NOVEMBER>
so long, and thanks for the fish
March 24, 2008 at 11:41 pm #619597
walfredoMemberJan- an honest question. Would you work for and support Hillary if she won the nomination even though she finished behind Obama in votes, pledged delegates, and contests won?
March 25, 2008 at 12:43 am #619598
JanSParticipantfirst…tell me how she got the nomination if he had more votes, more pledged delegates, and contests won….and I’ll give you an honest answer…
March 25, 2008 at 4:42 am #619599
JoBParticipanti just told you what is already out there in the media… and being ignored by democrats.
we ignore at our peril.
and.. yes… there is plenty out there that has already been used against Clinton.. and will be again.
March 25, 2008 at 4:45 am #619600
JoBParticipantMarch 25, 2008 at 5:17 pm #619601
JanSParticipantwalfredo…I gave your question some thought. I’m going to assume that you’re talking about if the nomination is somehow taken from Barack Obama in some underhanded way. Here’s my thought. I would still vote for Hillary (or Obama, if it were the opposite.) Either is better than the alternative. There is ..hmm..how can I say this nicely…there is no way in hell I’d ever vote for John McCain. And I WILL vote…not voting is not an option. If I didn’t vote, then that would mean that I can never complain about what comes along…that I just accept the status quo…
March 25, 2008 at 5:21 pm #619602
JanSParticipantnow…walfredo, how would you answer that question? I know that you’re an Obama supporter, and that you have a feeling that somehow someone is going to “cheat” him out of the nomination. So…how would you vote in that situation?
March 25, 2008 at 5:30 pm #619603
AnonymousInactivecharlabob, I love your new sign off.
March 25, 2008 at 5:37 pm #619604
charlabobParticipantThanks, JT! I actually just looked it up — and it should be “So long and thanks for *all* the fish” but somehow it scans better the other way. It’s the fourth book in Douglas Adams’ Hitchhiker’s Guide Series. A lot of wisdom in those books — back when sardonic sarcasm was still in :-)
March 25, 2008 at 5:51 pm #619605
walfredoMemberThere is no way I could support a candidate that lost in pledged delegates. I don’t think you can change the rules as you go, and I think it sets a terrible precident for all future campaigns; that the rules can be made up, and numbers can be reinterpreted to focus whatever calculation benefits you.
But I understand the media’s obsession with focusing on all 3 qualifiers- popular vote, pledged delegates, and contests won. This specific question is asked to Hillary supporters often- if your candidate at the end, trailed in all 3 of these categories, would she drop out… Not one surrogate will give a straight answer, so obviously instruction from the top is to keep the A-bomb on the table. The superdelegates selecting her, without any populist justification.
So, I’m not asking you to draw as hard a line as I think voters should. I’m asking, would you support a candidate that (I don’t care which one btw)lost in pledged delegates, contests won, and popular vote? What type of impact do you think this precedent would have on future primaries? How would you explain to supporters of the canidate (again don’t care who it is) who won all 3 of these measures why they aren’t the nominee, and why they should support the other candidate.
March 25, 2008 at 5:55 pm #619606
AnonymousInactiveI have a feeling if Obama doesn’t end up getting the nomination, all of his supporters are going to declare unjust tactics and claim that he was “cheated” out of it. It will be a huge uproar.
They will not be able to accept the fact that maybe he just wasn’t good enough. Maybe he just couldn’t convince enough people that he was the man for the job. They will not be happy and, I think, unable to let it go.
March 25, 2008 at 6:03 pm #619607
walfredoMemberNewResident- I think at the end of the day, the reason Obama supporters would feel “cheated” is because, the only plausible way Hillary could win at this point, outside of a comet striking Mr. Obama would be by close to 70% of the remaining superdelegates “selecting” her.
He is going to win in pledged delegates (ask the Clinton campaign staff), he is going to win in popular vote, and he is going to win more contests by almost 2 to 1. So, yes, with all 3 of those factors being almost inevitable at this point, it would be a huge uproar that despite all of that being true he wasn’t “good enough” for the democratic party. In fact, I think it would be the biggest blunder any major party has ever made.
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