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August 4, 2012 at 10:10 am #604248
JanSParticipantAugust 4, 2012 at 2:09 pm #765652
miwsParticipantAnyone who believes that totally dismantling the Postal System is a good thing, please include your serious proposal of how to take care of the more than half a million employees that will be out of work.
Mike
August 4, 2012 at 4:06 pm #765653
kootchmanMemberSame way we took care of thousands of saddle makers, buggy whip producers, wagon wheel makers, barrel coopers, ferriers ice box delivery drivers ? Some will go to FedEx, some to UPS, some to new regional stat up replacements? They are losing billions of dollars.. bad enough but the Post Office projects an additional 30% loss of revenues over the next decade. If we were conducting a national jobs program… they should have kept NASA… at least that was a source of innovation and discovery. For those who do pay taxes.. and have skin in the game… it’s simply another business model rendered obsolete by advancing technologies. Can’t support it forever. Funny though miws.. just had a conversation at the coffee shop yesterday… one USPS worker was talking about the last two years she has spent going to school to update her skills for a second career after USPS. onder how many USPS workers have been as proactive? The death should be phased in … but it ain’t working… if it can’t meet its obligations it’s gotta go. Same with the agriculture farm subsidy.. conceived to allow the 50 acre family farm survive and restore soils depleted in the Great Dustbowl… now? 80% of the Farm Bill is food stamps and the rest goes to large corporate farmers.
August 4, 2012 at 4:22 pm #765654
redblackParticipantThey are losing billions of dollars.. bad enough but the Post Office projects an additional 30% loss of revenues over the next decade.
again, by simplifying the argument this way, you demonstrate that either you don’t know what you’re talking about, or you’re spreading misinformation.
which is it, kootch?
Under the law passed in 2006, the postal service must pay at least $5.5 billion a year into a retiree health benefit fund, a steep “prefunding” requirement that doesn’t apply to normal corporations. Although the agency has suffered a significant drop in first-class mail over the last five years, the prefunding payments have accounted for most of the postal service’s losses in recent quarters.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/31/postal-service-default_n_1725263.html
and, in accordance with the same law, they’re not allowed to raise the price of postage to cover the shortfalls. without that 2006 law, the post office would be solvent and competitive.
i thought you guys liked competition. you hate government favoritism, but it’s okay to hobble a government agency to level the playing field for your corporate campaign donors. i guess when the other team has a unionized work force, you have to go for the hamstring, huh?
August 4, 2012 at 5:20 pm #765655
JanSParticipantand once again, Kootch slams one part of this…the post office. He has nothing to say about Congress not doing it’s job, about wasting it’s time NAMING post offices, about taking 5 weeks off, when they should be in DC working their asses off, because there ain’t nuthin’ gonna get done by them between now and November, no matter what people think. I am chagrinned that you all find these little things to bitch about yet support a do nothing House of Representatives under a very do nothing John Boehner, who seems bound and intent on simply denying everything while pointing a finger at the White House. Shame, shame, shame.
no wonder no one wants to join in these conversations anymore..what’s the damned point?
August 4, 2012 at 6:05 pm #765656
redblackParticipantsorry, jan. didn’t mean to sidetrack you. i did read the gail collins link.
i follow kootch off of the road because he seems to think he can just toss out blatantly false statements like they’re truths. i think it’s important to point out where he’s wrong so that if the other 3 people reading these political threads haven’t researched the topic or read opposing views they won’t base their opinions on distorted versions of the truth.
August 4, 2012 at 6:28 pm #765657
kootchmanMemberYou have talking points from MoveOn.Org? Here.. digest these numbers.
“UPS is unionized in my state and they’re profitable, but labor’s about 50 percent of their cost. FedEx is non-unionized and labor’s about 38 percent of their cost. But with the Post Office, it’s 80 percent of their cost. You can’t run a business that way, a profitable one. (Sen Rand Paul)
Read more on Newsmax.com: Rand Paul to Newsmax: US Post Office Faces Bankruptcy
I would say the US Senate has the backlog… the Republican House has crafted lots of legislation… ” I hear from an anonymous source Harry:, aint’ doing the job. When the Senate cleans up the backlog of House passed legislation then they can come back. The Senate is three years behind.. why would congress pass more legislation? what they have passed isn’t being acted on.??? Pass more? for what reason? To say they did.? The Senate has to lift their end of the wagon.
August 4, 2012 at 6:30 pm #765658
kootchmanMemberwell we can stop pension pre-funding pretty damn quick… and we will… when USPS goes into bankruptcy the courts will throw out those pension fund contracts. Reform through the cleansing power of bankruptcy. Some Democrats can count redblack.. But what keeps then out of court? The Democrats know damn well that the trustees and bankruptcy courts will determine it is not a viable “ongoing” enterprise and order a creditor liquidation.
President Obama’s former director of the Office of Management and Budget, Peter Orszag, has declared that it is time to privatize the Postal Service after it announced it would be unable to meet billions of dollars in payments that are coming due in August and September.
From 2008 to 2010 First Class mail which accounts for half of the revenue of USPS dropped over 18%…. AND GAO Expects it to accelerate. As does the Post Office projections. GAO which liberals love to quite when it supports their argument … even a total pension refund…. will not save USPS…. it’s done, toast, finito… killed off by a better technology. Them’s is the breaks. And sadly for you redblack.. the facts. Break it up, and sell off the pieces. It’s worth more dead than alive… Do you REALLY think it has a chance of a turn around? GAO says with or without the pre-paid pension fund.. it’s dead.
The reason it can’t raise rates? It’s a monopoly. DUH! Now if you let UPS, FedEx compete for first class mail… and take away the first class monopoly… USPS can operate as a free enterprise and set prices as they see fit. Just another GSE that can’t survive competitive markets.
Let’s use your “facts” redblack… they prefund appx, 5.5 billion a year… and lose how much a year? They lost 3.2 billion the past quarter…. !!!!
http://usgovinfo.about.com/b/2010/11/15/postal-service-loses-8-5-billion-in-2010.htm
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-10/u-s-postal-service-loses-3-2-billion-as-mail-use-slips.html
A million less public union members!!! GREAT!!!!
August 4, 2012 at 6:53 pm #765659
miwsParticipant
“But….but….JaN! Getting my tan at the D.C. area golf courses get so monotonous! I gotta get to some out of town courses once in awhile!“
Mike
August 4, 2012 at 7:20 pm #765660
JanSParticipantredblack…I totally understand…
miws….”Cry me a River”…
Kman…so you say…but it seems our lovely do-nothing ( or not a damned thing) congress, hasn’t got time for that, while they can find the time for naming some of them, for taking 5 weeks off (because they’re so damned overworked), and for some fun in the sun…baked brains, golfing trips, bbq’s…wow..whadda life..
August 4, 2012 at 10:29 pm #765661
kootchmanMemberwhat’s there to do? They are waiting for the Democratic Senate to return over 54 bills…. from the Senate to the House. Tell Harry to get them out of his desk drawer. The have two years of House bills sitting in a pile waiting for his action. we’ve seen this all before.. the Senate waits til we have a cliff hanger.. and the economy is at riisk to get another crack at a continuing spending resolution… and more deficits… yea sure redblack… Patty letting Boeing take a hit.. in your dreams. Amazon, MS. crushed by a flatlined consumer? I’m willing to play a game of chicken… are you?
August 5, 2012 at 4:03 am #765662
JoBParticipantkootch..
how many of those 54 house bills sitting in the Senate are there because house republicans passed bills they knew wouldn’t move in the Senate?
they were passed just to make political points
It is their job to work WITH the the Senate to create and pass bills that will benefit the American people
not to use the time and resources of the American people for nothing more than political grandstanding.
Oh wait.. John Boehner told the American people his job in the house was to gaurantee that President Obama didn’t get another term..
at any cost
guess who picks up that tab?
August 5, 2012 at 6:11 am #765663
metrognomeParticipantyep, I’d much rather pay UPS $15 to deliver a letter rather than 45cents to USPS. Let’s bust dem dere unions, yep.
And, as you well know kootch, comparing labor costs as a percentage of total costs is complete BS without comparing the other costs (facilities, equipment, vehicles, planes, etc.) and ‘customer service’ issues such as convenience of pick/drop locations, rates charged depending on weight, size and speed of delivery, etc.
And I’m fairly sure most USPS employees turn around and spend their wages in their community rather than stashing the cash in a Swiss bank account.
August 5, 2012 at 3:26 pm #765664
redblackParticipanti don’t use anyone’s talking points, kootch. i’ll repeat stats or news items when i believe they confirm my philosophy about government and politics, but my main tools are empathy and reason.
Reform through the cleansing power of bankruptcy.
that’s the stupidest thing i’ve ever read. now i’m dumber. thanks a lot.
From 2008 to 2010 First Class mail which accounts for half of the revenue of USPS dropped over 18%…. AND GAO Expects it to accelerate.
that’s because the 2006 republican legislation pins the cost of first class mail to the rate of inflation: USPS can’t raise the price of postage to cover their shortfalls.
it’s pretty simple, kootch, and i wish you would just admit it already: republicans cut the legs out from under the post office precisely in order to bankrupt it and destroy the largest unionized voting bloc in america. USPS was perfectly solvent – and had been since ben franklin’s day! – until they passed that legislation.
so now, back to 2012…
what’s there to do? They are waiting for the Democratic Senate to return over 54 bills.
legislation like this:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0412/75755.html
http://politicalcorrection.org/factcheck/201201240002
***
ahh! here we go! legislation that actually has “jobs” in the title! finally, we americans can rest easy knowing that republicans are busy coming up with innovative new ways to help our country through tough economic times:
The bill, known as the Job Protection and Recession Prevention Act of 2012, would extend for an additional year, through 2013, the tax reductions originally enacted in 2001 and 2003. The bill, H.R. 8, would extend the Bush tax cuts that lowered the marginal tax rates, provided marriage penalty relief, offered a $1,000 child credit, provided a 15 percent top rate on dividends and capital gains taxes, repealed the Personal Exemption Phase-out and the Pease limitation on itemized deductions, leave the estate tax at its 2011 and 2012 parameters (indexed for inflation), provide higher Section 179 small business expensing limits, and certain education-related benefits. In addition, the bill would provide a two-year patch for the alternative minimum tax covering 2012 and 2013.
oh. they’re re-legislating a bill written by republicans in 2000.
people from the past are taking our jobs!
***
now, go to this site:
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/major
and tell me how many of the important jobs- or economy-related pieces of legislation are written or sponsored by republicans.
August 5, 2012 at 9:44 pm #765665
kootchmanMemberFact… the postal rates are set at the rate of inflation… BECAUSE congress gave the USPS a monopoly on first class mail. Now if the wages and benefits stayed at the rate of inflation.. but they don’t. And they simply are losing market share. It’s a business that is being supplanted by better technology. Even T-Rex had to exit the stage when his time was up. That is the statutory restriction. Now, all the USPS has to do, is drop that monopoly and ask to go “free market”. You can’t have it both ways metro… an employee overhead of 80% and a .45 letter. You want “cheap” but don’t want to pay the full freight.. how very Seattle. Go private… then they can cobble together whatever legal pension plan they want… or can bargain for. Raise rates to any level they want. All monopolies are rate controlled… cable, utilitiies. etc.
Those Republican bills are sent over for reconciliation, debate, discussion…. none of which has happened. Sorta like sending the class envy tax from the Senate to the House? Which was pure grandstanding… because the House has to originate all tax and spending bills… not the Senate. It was a fluufer nutter sandwich.
Yeah, I know redblack… you believe we can tax our way to prosperity. How to get American jobs back? Reallocate to more productive use of resources.
August 5, 2012 at 10:03 pm #765666
DBPMemberA cynic is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. —Oscar Wilde
Kootchman, there you go again, failing to see beyond the price tag.
Yes, Congress granted a first-class monopoly. In exchange, USPS is required to deliver a letter to ALL areas of the country for the same rate. They are also required to do parcel delivery to rural areas for the same rate as urban areas. And this was by design, to ensure that rural and low-income people wouldn’t be marginalized and isolated.
Can’t you see how subsidizing delivery to rural areas might be a benefit to society as a whole?
You wanna reform the Post Office? OK, I’m game.
You wanna force the Post Office out of business? Go anoint your head.
August 6, 2012 at 2:01 am #765667
kootchmanMemberNo. I can’t. Just visited ND this summer… every square inch is covered by satellite, cable, fiber optic, et al. I have no problems contacting any relatives, in TN, NC, ND, IA, MA, … in fact, I have more contact with them now… then when we had only first class mail. Oscar Wilde would love spoofin’ on this day and age. Let Congress put first class mail out to bid …. USPS can put in a number along with FedEx, any regional start-ups. In fact, I sent fish from the Kenai to Rock Lake ND…. got there in 24 hours from the time it got out of the flash freezer on the dock. we don’t need a 25 billion dollar bail out… we have better things to do than dinosaure life support. Like investing in schools? Here’s a simple question and you answer yes, I will be laughing at you… would YOU invest in USPS? Kill it… the high point of my great Aunt’s week is her trip to the senior center to get on her e-mail account and update her Facebook and look at the pictures of all her relatives…. and assisted if needed by the local HS kids who do their service hours.. we have scans of old family death records, pictures of busting open prairie with horse teams. shared in plentitude. She in no longer the sole archivist of family history. She got over 140 gift cards on her 101st birthday…. none of that would have happened by USPS. Dozens of us watched her 100th birthday video feed… and the cost? Nothing.
August 6, 2012 at 2:26 am #765668
JoBParticipantkootch..
is there any service/benefit to ordinary Americans that you don’t want to dump?
they pay taxes too you know..
I am done with teapublicans
August 6, 2012 at 4:56 am #765669
kootchmanMemberWasting money, precious resources is no benefit to ordinary citizens. Get on with making the transitions needed for a 22nd century economy. You would spend billions so you can have the satisfaction of sending a 45 cent letter that consumes fuel, wastes resources, use planes, for a “send” button utilizing decimal points of the energy? why invest in what even the Post Office itself says is a service less relevant everyday? Taking the scoop net of class warfare harvests only the vitality that comes from private enterprise and entombs it in government marble. Nuts to that! So they pay taxes? They don’t pay enough to cover their costs… or even break even. I am thrilled to see the business acumen here…. ya pay 4-8 K in taxes and cost how much per employee? That;s how you return jobs and prosperity? The benefits are minimal, and getting less relevant. What will you cut to balance the budget.? I see your dollar in increased taxes, ante up 3 in cuts. There’s the deal on the table. The longer you prolong it, the more it will cost.
August 6, 2012 at 12:33 pm #765670
redblackParticipantkootch: this has been explained to you before, and you’re starting to look pretty clue-resistant.
there are people in rural areas who can’t – or won’t – get internet access. amish people. mennonites. your occasional koresh compound. and there are poor people who can’t afford internet access. there are people who don’t want cable television. are you going to deny them postal mail?
furthermore, the founding fathers’ decision to fund a post office was part and parcel – no pun intended – with their desire to have a well-informed electorate by ensuring that the printed word could reach every american, no matter how remote. they put it into the constitution.
they couldn’t have envisioned a society which would even consider pay-to-play for access to communication.
as far as “taxing our way to prosperity,” if you believe that’s my philosophy, you really have no comprehension of the ideas i’ve been trying to discuss with you.
but i still won’t let you spread FUD and misinformation.
August 6, 2012 at 4:54 pm #765671
JoBParticipantkootch…
why is it that you think taxpayer dollars are only wasted when they benefit taxpayers?
every tax dollar that is given to businesses that don’t hire American workers is wasted money.
August 6, 2012 at 6:16 pm #765672
DBPMemberAugust 6, 2012 at 10:37 pm #765673
JoBParticipantAugust 7, 2012 at 12:10 am #765674
metrognomeParticipanthmmm … if Kootch thinks the Founding Parents decision re: funding postal service needs to be reconsidered in light of technology changes, that same thinking should be applied to the Second Amendment, in light of technology changes.
August 7, 2012 at 12:13 am #765675
miwsParticipant -
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