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September 29, 2010 at 7:05 pm #596523
JiggersMemberWho really is the infidel? Facts: The man is still livng large as the U.S. Government still hasn’t captured him, the tragic 9/11 attacks that collapsed the financial business World Trade Center Towers and the cost of A worthless trillion dollar war has continued its crippling affect on the U.S. economy. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. The effect of 9/11 has made its way around the world in many many ways. No too mention the lives lost since that fateful day. What’s your thoughts?
September 29, 2010 at 7:37 pm #704597
DOCMemberWe don’t know if Bin Laden is even alive, so I wouldn’t consider that fact. I agree with you that the wars are pointless. Saying that we “owe” it to the 4k+ victims of 9/11 is dumb. We now have lost 5k+ troops and 100k+ civilians and others. Now to say we must continue to fight because we “owe” it to those fallen troops is just utter crap. If I died in a pointless war, the only thing I would want you to owe me is to keep others alive!
September 29, 2010 at 10:03 pm #704598
JoBParticipantjiggers..
what is an infidel?
and why would you assume any reasonable person would think Bin Laden was stupid?
ok.. i know george w and his crowd gave the man a free pass dismissing him as some kind of fool…
but i did stipulate “reasonable man”.
September 29, 2010 at 10:22 pm #704599
JiggersMemberbin laden is saying that the U.S.A. are the infidel(one without faith). Let’s not turn this into another religious thread.
September 29, 2010 at 10:35 pm #704600
JoBParticipantjiggers…
wasn’t trying to turn this into another conversation on faith…
but to point out that you are stating the obvious to anyone who has taken the time to think this through.
What Bin Laden did had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with terrorism.
Although our government sure did it’s best to make this all about religion:(
September 30, 2010 at 6:04 am #704601
redblackParticipantjiggers: sorry, but your post is a religious post. you can’t say the word “infidel” without invoking religion.
and DOC is right: what proof do we have that bin laden is alive? rumors were that he was lugging a dialysis machine around the hills and caves of waziristan almost a decade ago.
as far as the 9/11 hijackers, though, i don’t understand why anyone would impugn an entire religion just to condemn a bunch of loosely-organized criminals.
as an example, tojo was buddhist. do we then accuse all buddhists of being authoritarian fascists?
i’m mostly curious about your “worthless trillion dollar war” comment, though, and i have a follow-up question (which might be a trap):
was the iraq war worthless? or are just wars of “obama’s choosing” worthless?
does it matter if they’re off-budget or not?
September 30, 2010 at 10:27 am #704602
HMC RichParticipantAhem, The Japanese were a warrior society and lived by the Bushido Code. When they were defeated they accepted Free Market principles and the “Western Values”.
If Bin Laden were around he would be sending out more videos taunting the U.S. Supposedly when he dies his Fatwahs expire.
There are plenty of Jihadist’s out there. Do not under estimate these radical fundamentalists. If you are not of Islam, you are an infidel. The only way to stop a Jihadist Muslim is too destroy them. Losing does not compute with Islam. That is why they disappear for awhile when they do lose. I know this seems harsh but it is true. Our Marine Corps was founded on stopping Islamic Pirates. From what I have been reading, the word moderate Muslim doesn’t fit. Either you are Muslim or not is what I am getting from their point of view. Whether or not that is true, only Islamic people can tell me.
September 30, 2010 at 2:59 pm #704603
JoBParticipantHMCRich..
you need to read more
and a wider selection of books.
The japanese have no more accepted “western values” than the chinese…
though they did benefit greatly from post world war II reconstruction .. their business model isn’t quite the same as ours…
Our marine corp was founded to stop pirates.. some of whom happened to be muslims.. but not all.
And lastly.. i wonder how you can speak to moderation when you think an entire group of people needs to be exterminated based on the fact that they choose to worship a different god?
Tell me how a muslim Fatwah differs from your statement if there are no moderate muslims?
Based on that analysis and using your example .. should we destroy those in Japan who still practice the Buddist Shinto religion of their forefathers?
After all.. they were perfectly willing to use their bodies as weapons against us in World War II. Who knows what they would do given the chance now?
All you have to do is look to our own history and our treatment of the aboriginal people here to realize that from their perspective we dished out far worse than anything Bin Laden could dream of.
Islamic people have been telling you all along that those who support Bin Laden’s fatwah and the however many that have followed it are a minority…
what would it take for you to hear them?
Unplug your ears.
September 30, 2010 at 11:20 pm #704604
JiggersMemberI’m digressing back to bin-Laden why?, Look at our economy now. it’s in shambles because that trogladyte forecasted how this country would respond. And if he didn’t know and only guessed, it was a damn good guess. We’ve fallen into his trap.
October 1, 2010 at 12:39 am #704605
JoBParticipantOctober 1, 2010 at 2:10 am #704606
DOCMemberBin Laden was not planning on creating a depression when he planned 9/11. He was trying to destroy buildings that he thought a financial system could not exist without (I think at least). Agreed that the recession is happening, but I think he was planning on destroying the American idea of currency, not just devaluing it a little. And frankly, it’s our own stupidity that got us into this financial mess, not his plan or trap.
October 1, 2010 at 3:12 am #704607
DPMemberHMC Rich: Do you know any Muslims personally? I’ve known a few, and I have to say that none of them impressed me as the type of person for whom “losing is not an option.”
Well, on second thought, maybe one of them was . . .
Part of the problem here is that Islam and Muslims are two different things. I’m happy to buy off on the concept that Muslims are, on the whole, moderate people. But if you extend that to say that Islam is a moderate religion, then it gets more complicated, because then you’re getting into things like history, psychology, and scripture.
In any case, I think it’s times like this when we should just cease all the bickering and recrimination and challenge ourselves with this simple moral imperative: WWJD? *
*What would Jiggers do?
October 1, 2010 at 3:29 am #704608
JoBParticipantDP…
man has been moderate in the name of Christianity?
not so much:(
i suspect there is plenty of brutality to go around on both sides of the islam/christian divide… and not just towards each other either.
October 1, 2010 at 4:00 am #704609
redblackParticipantrich: i don’t underestimate those radical fundamentalist criminals who happened to be islamic. they could have just as easily been IRA. or jewish separatists. or ELF. or buddhists.
by bringing religion into it in an us-versus-them debate, you are helping perpetuate what “bin laden” – sponsored by corporate media – has been selling. (and business is fine, thank you very much.)
israel has committed a lot of brutality, (supposedly in the name of self-defense) but just because i believe their government is insane doesn’t make me anti-semitic. and as much as i’d like to, i don’t accuse christians of being criminals just because of nonsense-in-the-name-of-christ like the spanish inquisition. or fred “god hates fags” phelps.
you can’t broadbush – what? – a quarter of the world’s population as bomb-throwing criminals simply because they’re islamic. that’s like dismissing the entire catholic religion as pedophiles.
if that’s the intent of you and jiggers, then you’re either purposely fomenting religious war or you’re completely bent by what corporate media is shoveling you.
your dismissive “ahem” notwithstanding, of course.
in conclusion, though, have you ever considered that bin laden was more pissed off about american corporate hegemony – enforced by our miltary and financial might – than by our constitution, our freedom, or our religious views? if not, i can recommend ghost wars by steve coll, a former washington post editor. very illuminating.
October 1, 2010 at 5:09 am #704610
kgParticipantBit of a tangent, but one I felt needed corrected. The Marine Corps was not founded for the sole purpose of defeating Muslim corsairs(Barbary Pirates) which we were forced to deal with around 1784 when Morocco seized the first ship from the United States. “On November 10, 1775, the Continental Congress passed a resolution stating that “two battalions of Marines be raised” for service as landing forces with the fleet.”
Source–http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usmc/history.htm
Okay tangent off.
October 1, 2010 at 4:01 pm #704611
JiggersMemberOk… let me ask this in several parts, the way our economy is in crisis right now, was it A direct result, or somehow related to the 9/11 attacks at all? Was the housing/banking mess also related to 9/11 in anyway? The perception amongst the public seems to be convoluted to how we got to were we are today.
October 1, 2010 at 4:11 pm #704612
JoBParticipantjiggers…
the towers were a symbol of America’s financial strength to others… not the core of the system.
Unless those in the financial industry who cautioned against the banking practices that collapsed the industry were all located in the towers on 9/11… it’s unlikely:(
The ultimate consequences of 9/11.. the war George Bush instigated with Iraq that became the money pit Dick Cheney had always said it would before 9/11 had a great deal to do with our national debt… but even that wasn’t the trigger for the financial collapse.
rampant unregulated greed was the cause… and it doens’t look like a near total meltdown was enough to teach the greedy a lesson since they have come out of this better than the rest of us.
at last accounting.. the financial sector was responsible for 30% of America’s corporate profit… that’s a huge chunk of change in an economy that has become one large service industy.
Want to know where we are headed? Take a good look at Dubai for the financial sector’s shining example.
Anthony Bordain recently did a piece on Dubai light that is disturbing to say the least…
October 1, 2010 at 8:31 pm #704613
B-squaredParticipantIt sure seems like the 9-11 incident, which we decided to go to war over (twice) just sped up a financial trajectory that we were already on. Our “spend money you don’t have” both on a personal and government level, coupled with the cost of those wars put us where we are today. greasing the skids were the lax banking regulations, and the greed – from those who wanted more house than they could afford up to the folks bundling crap mortgages and then trying to hawk them. Bin Laden had nothing to do with that.
October 2, 2010 at 3:05 am #704614
redblackParticipantjiggers: my humble opinion is that where we are financially today is a direct result of the reagan election(s).
before you write me off, i do understand that americans were pissed off at paul volcker’s decision to raise interest rates in the late ’70’s (despite its soundness as fed policy)… which was a response to rampant inflation… which was the outcome of vietnam war spending.
in short and to the point, 9/11 had absolutely jack-nothing to do with the u.s. and global financial meltdowns in the late ‘oughts.
but anderson vanderbilt at CNN might have you believe otherwise.
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