Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Bag Ban – W Seattle
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September 11, 2009 at 10:17 pm #676992
swimcatMemberoh my- this thread is hilarious! I do want to correct something though. It’s Nordstrom, not Nordstroms.
September 11, 2009 at 10:19 pm #676993
JoBParticipantm..
thank you for the correction. i confess it wasn’t important enough to me to look up..
i wish i found this all amusing:(
September 11, 2009 at 10:22 pm #676994
JoBParticipantCMP..
those free bags aren’t free. You pay the cost of them in your grocery bill whether you use them or not.
and.. you are likely to see an increase in your garbage bill soon to defray the increased cost because people can’t seem to stuff those bags into another and tie the top before putting them in the recycling.
but hey.. it’s the principle.. right???
September 11, 2009 at 10:55 pm #676995
HomerParticipantI agree…CMP, how do you know what makes up our landfills? Have you visited lately? Also, it’s not only quantity but how long things take to break down in the landfills. How many refrigerators do you see flying down the road in a breeze, or floating in our streams? It’s not, again, just quantity, but destructive power. Please take some real time to think about this and even though I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, just please take more time to think about ALL the angles to this. As long as we’re all educated on the subject, then I’m happy.
September 11, 2009 at 10:57 pm #676996
HomerParticipantDoes principle stop you from paying sales tax? When the ferries or buses hike their fares to cover their costs, do you object on principle? Just because something used to be “free” (and JoB is right, it’s built in to your bill), doesn’t mean that it always will be or always should be. It’s not like their taxing your air you breathe, it’s a luxury that is causing so much damage that paying a tiny bit more for it may make people think twice about using plastic…my 42 cents.
September 11, 2009 at 11:07 pm #676997
swimcatMemberDo you know all of our trash gets hauled down to a landfill in Oregon on a train and has been for at least 15 years? Everyone should think more about what they toss into trash cans, and think twice before they purchase something. We aren’t going to do the right thing every time, but if we collectively make an effort to recyle or not waste things than less will be making it to the landfills.
September 11, 2009 at 11:11 pm #676998
BayouMemberIf you really think that it’s about just a few plastic baggies in the landfill, then consider this…
http://www.reusablebags.com/facts.php?id=4
Society’s consumption rate is now estimated at well over 500,000,000,000 (that’s 500 billion) plastic bags annually, or almost 1 million per minute.
The U.S. goes through 100 billion plastic shopping bags annually. An estimated 12 million barrels of oil is required to make that many plastic bags.
They’ll accumulate and persist on our planet for up to 1,000 years.
Plastic bags cause over 100,000 sea turtle and other marine animal deaths every year when animals mistake them for food.
The average family accumulates 60 plastic bags in only four trips to the grocery store.
Each high quality reusable bag you use has the potential to eliminate an average of 1,000 plastic bags over its lifetime.
Windblown plastic bags are so prevalent in Africa that a cottage industry has sprung up harvesting bags and using them to weave hats, and even bags. According to the BBC one group harvests 30,000 per month.
Collection, hauling and disposal of plastic bag waste create an additional environmental impact. An estimated 8 billion pounds of plastic bags, wraps and sacks enter the waste stream every year in the US alone, putting an unnecessary burden on our diminishing landfill space and causing air pollution if incinerated.
September 11, 2009 at 11:18 pm #676999
JoBParticipantbayou..
wow.. those stats really hit you in the face, don’t they.
i try not to use plastic bags and we still accumulate enough to fill one of those grocery bags about every other month..
m..
i am abysmally aware how much useless packaging our household produces each month.. even if it does go into recycling, it’s a tremendous waste of resources…and i conscientiously work at eliminating it.
still, it would appall each and every one of us if we had to look at the mound of trash we create each year.
Every little bit really does help.
September 12, 2009 at 1:21 am #677000
CMPParticipantUm, I am educated on this…I have a degree in environmental policy so I studied plenty in college on the topic. Plus I don’t care if I’m technically paying for plastic bags when I go the grocery store through hidden fees. I can’t see it so it doesn’t bother me. I’m also paying for employee healthcare, wages, transportation and a host of other things that don’t ever really cross my mind. But if $.20 is itemized on my bill for each bag I use, I’ll be mad. And I’ve already stated that I use my own bags, it’s not like I’m being ignorant. I also buy OJ concentrate b/c I think buying it premade is wasteful with all of that plastic but I digress. Even if I were a millionaire I’d still vote against this tax. People have to want to change their behavior, not be forced to do it b/c of economic reasons. I just love the double standard that some people in this forum are using the bags for lunch sacks when they crap on people that want to use them to tote dog poop. Excuse me?
September 12, 2009 at 1:42 am #677001
CMPParticipantOne more thing I forgot to add…I try to make most my expensive purchases in Oregon since my BF lives in Portland and I live in an apartment, therefore not paying my trash bill, so I don’t really care if that goes up or not. Again, the rationale that it might get rolled up into my rent but I ain’t gonna see it. Hopefully we’re done on this topic although it’s pretty funny to see everyone get fired up about it, myself included.
September 12, 2009 at 4:20 am #677002
JoBParticipantCMP..
i disagree that legislating change doesn’t work.
the bottle deposit in Oregon.. legislated… and it works very well. Wish we had it here.
the plastic bag collection points outside all those grocery stores in Oregon.. legislated. And.. they work too… wish we had those here too.
As for using plastic bags.. we only use a plastic bag to pick up poo once… i suppose it’s possible to use it again.. but i am not willing to do so…so i think i’ll keep buying the biodegradable bags since the dogs poo a lot:(
hubby uses the same plastic bag until it will no longer keep the moisture from his frozen lunch from invading his bookbag.
If anyone knows of a good substitute on the market that will take up little more room in a bookbag than a plastic bag.. i would love to hear about it.
I suspect i will end up making my own:(
September 12, 2009 at 4:46 am #677003
HomerParticipantOMG CMP, you are absolutely something else. So, if Mayor Nickels had just said this is happening and we’re building into your property taxes, you’d be okay just because it’s not itemized!?!? Oh man, I love it. You say it should be our choice to do this but you’re okay with them saying we have to as long as you don’t see it on your receipt? You’re the type of voter every politician would love to have!
Oh, and your lunch bag vs. poop bag question…think about it from your environmental aspect…how many times can you use the same bag for lunch vs. how many times can you (will you) use the same bag for poop….It pains me to know that going through college hasn’t taught some to think critically about all aspects of a situation. I know them instating a fee isn’t the best idea but the best idea is for us to all do it voluntarily. But do you think this would really happen. If it did, do you think they’d instate a bag fee?!?!??!!??!?
September 12, 2009 at 6:01 am #677004
jamminjMemberThis initiative was a ‘feel good’ initiative.
A ban for ALL businesses I can possibly back, but to nit pick one industry didn’t seem right.
To pick out grocery bags, at the same time the same store sells thousands of dozens plastic water bottles, thousands of vegetable bags that get thrown out – not recycled, the plastic bags to bag the plastic wrapped styrofoam meat products, as well as the thousands of other waste we produce… putting a tax on something alot of us already recycle and reuse while ignoring bigger waste – feel good, thats all this fee was for.
September 12, 2009 at 10:54 am #677005
HomerParticipantjamminj, do you really think ANYWHERE in the U.S. they could pass a complete ban on all plastics? Or a fee on ALL plastics? I wish but no, not yet. We have to start somewhere and why not attack the largest of the offenders first and work our way more comprehensive from there. If we pass this, then we then know we have the support to next work on all stores and their plastic bags and then maybe a big tax on those plastic water bottles (like we do for a pack of smokes). Thing is, if you can’t start small, you’ll never achieve an overall success. You have to start somewhere….
September 12, 2009 at 3:55 pm #677006
cjboffoliParticipantBayou: Nicely done. Interesting statistics. And again, don’t forget that the source for all of this plastic is foreign oil (mostly from nations that are hostile to the US) and that there are additional costs to bring plastic to market when you add in what we expend in blood and treasure to fight wars on the other side of the planet for this commodity.
The advent of biodegradable corn plastics is encouraging. But in order to successfully grow and process corn you need significant amounts of chemical fertilizers that are derived from….you guessed it….foreign oil.
jamminj is right. Soft plastic bags are just the tip of the iceberg. Most of the products we buy are over-packaged and plastics comprise a large percentage of landfill volume.
September 12, 2009 at 4:26 pm #677007
JoBParticipanti agree with jammimj…
plastic bags are just the tip of the iceberg…
so how about a bottle deposit? We could make it larger for plastic bottles than for glass… that would work.
And what if we all returned the plastic packaging to the store after making certain we weren’t returning the product? We could remove it on the spot for those things we knew we would be keeping… and…we could put a deposit on that too:)
As for the plastic ziplock bags.. they are now being manufactured with less plastic.. but we could put a plastic tax on them…
I confess, i haven’t found a better space saving option than ziplocks for packing hubby’s morning pastry.. but i would pay for either the option or a fee on the bags. waxed paper doesn’t hold up to the freezer and tin foil messes with the micrwave:(
ooo.. i like that idea.. a plastic tax.
Jamminj.. you with me here?
or should we start small with something like those plastic grocery bags that are littering our streets and causing havoc in recycling?
September 12, 2009 at 4:41 pm #677008
RainyDay1235MemberI voted for it – maybe naive, but this is how I feel:
* We all pay for the bags now. Maybe the price of groceries can fall a bit when the stores no longer have to hide these costs
* I don’t see it as a “tax” – it’s merely paying for something you take from the store – just like everything else
* Poor people can get bags for free just like we all go. And they can re-use plastic bags just as easily as anyone else, no excuses
* I bet if stores set up a cloth bag donation station, it would fill up – I have plenty to give
* Your reusable bag does not have to be expensive or trendy. A re-used paper bag inside a plastic bag would last quite a while
* More often than not I put all items in boxes in my car and bring them in the house. I get more exercise and no bags needed at all!
* Don’t put dog poop in these bags – do you want to save it for all eternity? Scoop it all in your yard for a while and put it in ONE bag – or get biodegradable bags that are 1/3 the size
* 20 cents per bag is just right, or people would just pay – and that is not the point!
* Yes, I think this should apply to ALL industries
* Plastic bags have to be stopped – they are strangling our earth.
* Look where the $$ is coming from to fight this bill – plastic companies who are NOT working on ways to improve their product or make it more environmentally responsible. Reminds me of the tobacco companies….
September 12, 2009 at 11:08 pm #677009
HomerParticipantAmen!!! Start somewhere and make it better from there!!!!
September 13, 2009 at 12:14 am #677010
johnnyblegsMemberI voted for the fee as well. Why?
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I use the plastic bags primarily for the trash cans in the house. It’s just the two of us so we don’t produce a lot of garbage; rarely 2 bags a week. I was willing to pay the 20 cents a bag, or $1 a month, for my garbage bags. Cheap!
.
It was a poorly written law, I agree, but at least it was something.
September 13, 2009 at 12:35 am #677011
angelescrestParticipantSomething we should get all fired up about? Absolutely, and it’s gotta start somewhere. It’s the earth, and I think it is our responsibility to try to lessen the harm for which bayou and cjb have provided statistics.
Love Ikea’s already-in-place bag fee. And you can bet, when I purchase one of their mighty bags, I reuse and reuse. That’s the idea.
September 15, 2009 at 7:40 pm #677012
beachdrivegirlParticipantI wanted to correct a “statistic” that Homer gave in post 17. Homer says: “About the geographic affluence issues, just as a note, it was shown that those that make the least money, tend to give the most…” I have heard others on the blog mention this as well and have for some silly reason just believed it. However today while reading some investment information I learned more information on the statistic. And learned that more recent studies show differently. Today on MSN is says: “households with $500,000 or more in investible assets gave away 6% of their incomes in 2004, and those with net worth of $5 million, excluding primary residences, contributed 6.1% of their incomes. That compares to an average of about 2% for all American households and 4% for households with incomes under $25,000…”
Read More here:
September 15, 2009 at 8:36 pm #677013
KBearParticipantAccording to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the richest fifth of our population were the least generous in 2007, contributing only 2.1% of their total income to charity compared to 4.3% for the poorest fifth.
Here’s a Seattle Times article on the subject:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009253657_charity23.html
I found similar statistics elsewhere, too.
September 15, 2009 at 8:54 pm #677014
flowerpetalMemberWith a few individuals and families such as the Gates and Warren Buffett ginving extremely larege amounts, the mean is affected and makes the numbers “read” differently giving an inaccurate picture.
Its best to look at the median to understand what’s really going on. Similar stats to what KBear is quoting can also be found at the Philanthropists News Digest, Philanthropy NW, or King County United Way.
September 15, 2009 at 9:02 pm #677015
cjboffoliParticipantI wonder what the percentage of income numbers look like when you factor in taxes. Still, regardless of breakdown by income, Americans surely still deserve some credit for being the most philanthropic nation. Americans give more and give proportionately more, relative to our income, than any other nation in the world.
September 15, 2009 at 10:55 pm #677016
HomerParticipantBeachdrivegirl, I don’t believe random feel-good articles written by people that don’t back up their statistics. Having worked in the marketing world, I would like to see how big a study this was (or even a reference to the study) and what their parameters were before believing a random small story looking to be an attention grabber to make the author more “popular” for the news site. As I usually caveat with; “think independently and do your research first”.
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