WEST MARGINAL WAY: Speed-enforcement alert

WS Taxpayer November 9, 2020 (7:23 pm)

De-fund police but also complain about those pesky speeders! Love to see the “I’ll have my cake & eat it too” mentality at work! Appreciate the good work of the SPD but they have more important things to tend to. The reality is our wonderfully thoughtful government continues to find creative ways to restrict free movement on and around WS with no plans to effectively remedy the situation. Herbold trumpets things like decriminalizing certain offenses, RV Pump-outs, ride-share taxes and safe injection sites…all things that REALLY RESONATE with her constituency here in WS. As our WS represenative she has 1 responsibility to those who elected her – bridge, bridge, bridge, and bridge.

Elle Nell November 9, 2020 (8:01 pm)

I’d urge you to speak for yourself. Clearly, you are trying to speak for me. And I couldn’t disagree with you more..Thanks.
- Anne November 9, 2020 (8:59 pm)
  
  I couldn’t disagree with you more.
- WS98 November 10, 2020 (9:58 pm)
  
  @ Elle Nell, I’m with you on this!
arroyosandy November 10, 2020 (8:17 am)

“Love to see the “I’ll have my cake & eat it too” mentality at work!”You mean people who want to break the law (speed) but not be cited for it? Yeah I love seeing that to, and look forward to seeing them pulled over.
speed demon November 10, 2020 (1:45 pm)

I couldn’t AGREE with you more!!
A November 10, 2020 (8:10 pm)

Why doesn’t the city just put on of the speed cameras like in the school zones down there?The SPD can’t win for trying and I don’t feel it is the best use of time for them or the community.

Mj November 9, 2020 (7:28 pm)

Enforcement of an unreasonable speed limit that has zero technical justification, the 40 mph limit was appropriate and should be reinstated. Anyone getting a ticket needs to take it to court and subpoena the City’s Traffic Engineer and ask him for a copy of the City Traffic Study justification, hint no such report exists.

Alki resident November 9, 2020 (8:36 pm)

Exactly, it’s needs to be brought back up to 40. On that stretch, 30 is unreasonable. If people go over 40 then ticket them, but ticketing over 30 is bs. I too am sick of the WS residents being targeted for tickets leaving the area.
- Kyle November 10, 2020 (7:42 am)
  
  Believe me, they will have no problem finding people going 40+ on that stretch of road to ticket.
  - Chuck Jacobs November 10, 2020 (10:25 am)
    
    It’s a much higher fine for driving 50 mph in a 30 than 50 in a 40. Be sure to watch for more revenue generating policing and less “quality of life” policing, (theft, assault, vandalism, drugs, etc.)
  - Alki resident November 10, 2020 (10:35 am)
    
    I’m saying the speed limit needs to be put back to 40.
Kelkouska November 10, 2020 (10:15 am)

Seriously. Why is it treated like a school zone? what a joke.
heartless November 10, 2020 (1:07 pm)

I love the judicious use of the word “technical”. It is one of those words that, to some, means SO MUCH, and to others means… well, nothing at all.

When something has “zero technical justification,” what does that mean? It obviously doesn’t mean that there is zero justification. There can be lots of ways to justify it. But they want you to note that it has zero ‘technical’ justification. Whatever that means.

As many others have pointed out, we can have people zooming from stopped traffic to stopped traffic, or we can have people slowly moving from stopped traffic to stopped traffic. The middle speed doesn’t matter to the drivers–they’re jammed at either end anyway. And the time saved is so very little, if any.

This lower speed limit is such a silly thing to complain about.

Al November 9, 2020 (7:52 pm)

If the goal is to make commuting harder, perhaps we should lower the speed limit down to a flat 20mph? Or at the very least reduce down to 2 lanes the whole way?I bet if the speed limit was 15mph that would DEFINITELY reduce car usage.

Ryan Packer November 9, 2020 (10:26 pm)

Great idea!
- Lord Awesome November 10, 2020 (9:56 am)
  
  Hey! Don’t be giving SDOT any more ideas.
  - , Kathy November 10, 2020 (11:23 am)
    
    Some simple enforcement and calmer posted speed limits was sure to bring out the Waaaaahmbulance. Reducing the road from two to one southbound lanes would provide natural speed reduction, freeing up police resources. During heavier traffic in this corridor, the Chelan 5-way and Highland Park Way/West Marginal Way intersections will continue to be choke points. Driving faster between the intersections only gives the impression of getting to your destination faster. It actually just promotes competetive driving, waste of gas, increased pollution, noise levels and likelihood of collisions, property damage and injuries.
    - heartless November 10, 2020 (1:14 pm)
      
      Well said, Kathy.
  - GAnative November 14, 2020 (8:37 am)
    
    They already have that idea. Have you seen the plan for one lane of traffic in each direction, a dedicated truck lane on one side and a dedicated bike lane on the other? Try getting to and from WS then…

Delridge November 9, 2020 (7:56 pm)

Aimed at truckers? I never see them speed. The majority of the wreckless driving is done by cars. Maybe this will help folks slow down a bit. I used to go 35 in the right lane. Then had to go 40 just so cars won’t ride my bumper. Nowadays, you can hardly go less than 45mph without most drivers getting super aggressive.

Richard November 10, 2020 (12:20 pm)

After getting past the intersection under the bridge (on W. Marginal) I stayed in the far left lane doing the speed limit, as most drivers were. A women behind me was flailing her arms, clearly upset that I was remaining in the “fast lane” (left lane) & slowing her down.

30 yards later I put on my left directional & got in the turning lane so that I could turn left into Ferguson Plumbing Supply.

Moral of the story: have patience and don’t be one of those bleeping drivers … it really is NOT all about you.

NW November 9, 2020 (8:14 pm)

I drive for a living am all over the region sometimes and often in west seattle I steer clear of west marginal way now and will continue to.

Alex November 9, 2020 (8:30 pm)

How about people don’t drive in the left lane the entire length of W. Marginal way and allow folks to pass. Yes, people exceed the speed limit because Seattle has unreasonably slow speed limits for arterials throughout the city but people taking it upon themselves to direct the flow of traffic by not allowing people to pass in the passing lane makes it unsafe causing people to pass on the right and change lanes multiple times. This is where the real danger comes in. Use the right lane for travel. Allow other to pass on the left and you would be surprised how the flow of traffic improves and becomes much safer. It’s a 4 lane arterial folks. Let’s use it properly so we can all get where we are going.

Mellow Kitty November 9, 2020 (9:57 pm)

How about people don’t speed?
- Greg November 10, 2020 (11:13 am)
  
  There’s many reasons outlined here about why you should leave the left-lane open except if you’re actively passing. It depends on the relative speed of cars, not centered around the speed limit: https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2018/06/07/285097.htm#:~:text=A%20car%20going%205%20mph,of%20the%20left%20passing%20lane.&text=Driving%20in%20the%20left%20lane%20makes%20other%20cars,and%20creates%20a%20traffic%20backup.
Kelkouska November 10, 2020 (10:24 am)

Agreed, Alex. And Mellow Kitty, it is dang near impossible to not speed. Its 25mph!
- Mellow Kitty November 13, 2020 (9:56 am)
  
  Perhaps you shouldn’t be driving if it’s “dang near impossible” for you to not speed.

Smittytheclown November 9, 2020 (8:40 pm)

Make it 5mph. Let’s all walk.

FD November 9, 2020 (8:56 pm)

And yet people drive 50+ on Fauntleroy, in a school zone, and nothing is done.

Duffy November 10, 2020 (3:38 am)

Exactly…I’m thrilled because I live near California and Admiral and they just made the stretch of California between Alaska and Admiral 25MPH. It took them a while but they finally changed it after a lot of concerned citizens voiced their thoughts on the issue. People speed all over west Seattle but some areas (school zones, frequent bus stops, etc.) need the speed lowered more than others. California was one area because of how many schools, day cares, bus stops, and generally how many families walk up and down California every day. Runners too. Fauntleroy should be next if they haven’t lowered it to 25 yet. Totally unacceptable if they haven’t.
- KM November 10, 2020 (8:57 am)
  
  I’m pretty sure it will be. They are lowering speed limits citywide, so they probably have a process for doing so and Fauntleroy will eventually change.

WGA November 9, 2020 (9:38 pm)

I’m laughing because at the end of the day, it really doesn’t matter; you will end up waiting at a traffic light at either end! :-)

Derek November 10, 2020 (8:36 am)

5 mph difference easily means you make a traffic light that you don’t normally make. Just sayin’It matters. Bump it to 50mph. It’s a double lane roadway for three miles with no side traffic.

Slowenfeld November 9, 2020 (10:19 pm)

Stay to the right except to pass. One of the first things I learned in driver’s ed at age 14. So the radar speed signs on WMWay are only signs and not cameras for giving tickets?

WSB November 9, 2020 (11:32 pm)

There are no enforcement cameras in signs anywhere right now except longstanding school zones and red lights. The low bridge is getting cameras but they’re just for enforcing access restrictions, not speeding. – TR

bradley November 9, 2020 (11:03 pm)

Last Friday there was 2 motorcycle police ticketing northbound at the Alaska Marine driveway. They could have had 10, it was a field day.

zark00 November 9, 2020 (11:33 pm)

West Marginal is about 3 miles from Spokane to Highland Park.At 30 MPH that would take 6 minutes, at 40 MPH it takes 4:30.At 30 mph you have a 5% chance of killing a pedestrian, at 40mph a 20% chance.Similar increased risk with head on collisions, on roads with no middle barrier, at 30 vs 40. Trucks vs cars make it 10X worse.So really it’s how much you value a 15% or so lower chance of killing yourself or someone else vs 1 minute and 30 seconds off your commute. Driving slower, even though it’s a pita, is always safer without exception.

Jim November 10, 2020 (1:08 am)

Pretty sure there are zero pedestrians trying to cross Marginal Way without a full signal crosswalk. I agree there might be some serious speeders but the 30 limit is much too ridiculously low for that kind of roadway.
Chris November 10, 2020 (5:36 am)

I think you’re proving the speeders’ point. 6 min vs 4 1/2 min probably means faster drivers will miss an additional 2 min light at Highland Park Way. Very few pedestrians on West Marginal, it isn’t a residential area. It is light industrial with few driveways, in most areas this road would be posted at 40 to even 50 mph. Failing to keep right and speeding are both traffic code violations.
- arroyosandy November 10, 2020 (8:24 am)
  
  Chris if that is your (lame) argument then people should leave a few minutes earlier. But personal responsibility plays no part in any of this, it is always the fault of someone/something else.
Patience November 10, 2020 (6:24 am)

ZARK00: thanks for pointing this out – I hope folks will take a moment to read this and let it sink in.

WestJack November 10, 2020 (7:02 am)

I own a small fleet of service vehicles. I have to pay my employees for all the time they sit in traffic. That means that I have to charge my clients more to make up for time lost in traffic. The main arteries connecting the neighborhoods should be 40 mph, once in a neighborhood the speed could be slower.

KM November 10, 2020 (9:02 am)

Would you rather keep your employees safe and chance of lawsuits to a minimum, even if you don’t care about other drivers, cyclists or pedestrians (potential customers?)

Derek November 10, 2020 (8:25 am)

Speed limit needs to be bumped on that road. It’s SOOOO slow at 30. Come on. We already have the bridge down now we have to take even longer? Makes no sense. This town is so backwards. Accidents aren’t going up so why the low speed limit?

Mj November 10, 2020 (9:05 am)

Based on Technical Traffic Data the posted speed limit on WMW SW could be 50 MPH! The prior limit of 40 mph was in line Traffic Engineering criteria and was operating appropriately. The City had zero technical basis to change it to 30 mph, and in fact have likely made the corridor less safe!

zark00 November 10, 2020 (9:33 am)

MJ – many people mistakenly believe that there is some connection between the ‘engineered’ speed and safety – as if a speed limit of 40, because the road can handle it, is somehow magically safer than cars travelling 10 MPH slower on the same road. It’s an argument often cited as the last ditch, grasping at straws, hail mary when logic and a basic understanding of physics fails them. WESTJACK – Great point on why we should support the lower speed limit – your employees will sit in traffic far less often with a lower speed limit. The lower the speed limit the higher the roadway occupancy while maintaining traffic flow. Not a guess, proven over and over and over and over, so good point, lower the speed limit to help our local businesses!
heartless November 10, 2020 (9:54 am)

MJ, please share the “Technical Traffic Data” you reference. Thanks.
- Kathy November 10, 2020 (11:33 am)
  
  MJ, for many years I have been noting your ardent advocacy for higher speed limits in West Seattle. Not that you are admitting to anything, but if you happen to be zooming around 10 miles over the speed limit, I hope at least you are using an electric car so that you are not burning gas and oil unnecessarily. That would be bad for the environment, people’s health, and the climate.
- Ice November 10, 2020 (1:43 pm)
  
  I’d like to see both MJs technical data and Zark00’s as well.
Lagartija Nick November 10, 2020 (12:44 pm)

MJ, you always cite this ‘study’ when this topic comes up. Newsflash, Vision Zero isn’t about lowering traffic injuries/fatalities on specific corridors, it’s about lowering traffic injuries/fatalities across the board. You can’t cite ANY study that shows higher speeds correlate with less injuries/fatalities because there are none. It’s physically (as in actual physics) impossible.

Data for decision making November 10, 2020 (9:25 am)

I appreciate the idea behind Vision Zero, “Seattle’s plan to end traffic deaths and serious injuries on city streets by 2030.” As other commenters have suggested, it would be nice to have some data to back up the claims for this stretch of road regarding how accidents may have increased since the volume of traffic has increased. I believe a comparison could even be made before and after the speed limit change during the period of the bridge closure. I don’t think speed one way or the other has changed the prevalence or potential of deaths or serious injuries on West Marginal Way. I wish I had the data to (dis)prove this claim. I believe the Admiral Way hills see more accidents, deaths and injury because of the topographic, challenges, combined with speed, and a higher number of car and pedestrian crossings.

Mj November 10, 2020 (10:20 am)

heartless – the City has conducted a speed study and the 85th percentile speed is 50 mph. This is the primary basis for establishing speed limits. With engineering factors the prior 40 mph limit made sense.

And Zark00 I have seen study after study showing that speed limits based on properly conducted technical analysis operate safer than limits that are inconsistent with standards!

zark00 November 11, 2020 (12:06 am)

@ MJ – you absolutely have NOT seen ‘study after study’ showing that higher speed limits lead to less accidents, less lethal accidents, or fewer injuries. You have not seen those studies because those “studies” do not exist. I will pay you $1,000 cash if you can produce even a single study showing that.

helpermonkey November 10, 2020 (11:24 am)

I work on California Ave and see people regularly doing at least 20-30 over the posted 25mph speed limit on a daily basis. Busy street with pedestrians, cross streets – just an accident waiting to happen. Maybe the SPD can spare some traffic control for California Ave when they’re done on W Marginal.

heartless November 10, 2020 (1:11 pm)

Indeed, this is absolutely correct.

And then there is, I’d like to add, the issue of people illegally swerving around those driving at the limit. I often see this on California.

I hope with the restructuring of policing we can have many more ways in which things like speed limits are enforced–it doesn’t need to be cops, but it really does need to be happen.

Lagartija Nick November 10, 2020 (12:47 pm)

Look at all the law and order types here whining about having to follow the law. I’m shocked, shocked I tell you!

Joseph November 10, 2020 (1:07 pm)

Ironic how so many on here who support police defunding want to see police issue traffic tickets to workers trying to get back and forth from their life-sustaining jobs. You want burglars and gang members to get away with major crimes. Then you cheer when minimum wage workers get speeding tickets for doing 37 mph on a roadway engineered for 40 mph.

Mj November 10, 2020 (1:30 pm)

heartless – SDoT has collected the speed study data, the 85th percentile speed data supports a 50 mph limit. The prior 40 mph limit was reasonable accounting for other engineering factors.

zark00 – there is a connection, properly posted limits data consistently results in lower accident rates, with a few outliers. SDoT is ignoring the data!

heartless November 10, 2020 (1:54 pm)

MJ,

Then please link (or post here) the “speed study data”.

You have simply replaced some random words with other random words–replacing the phrase “Technical Traffic Data” with “speed study data” gets us no closer to understanding your argument, and, obviously, still fails to present one scintilla of data.
zark00 November 11, 2020 (12:14 am)

MJ – you are so wrong, and yet you just keep going.The 85th percentile speed is the speed at or below which 85 percent of the motorists drive on a given road unaffected by slower traffic or poor weather. This speed indicates the speed that most motorists on the road consider safe and reasonable under ideal conditions.The NTSB currently recommends that we “Revise traditional speed-setting standards to balance 85 percentile approaches with safe systems approach that better incorporates crash history, safety of pedestrians, bicyclists.”Literally, NTSB wants to stop using the 1964 85th percentile rule and start employing safety standards.There is NO connection to higher speed limits and safety. None. No study, no data you can cite, nothing, nada, zip, zilch, zero.

Mj November 10, 2020 (4:36 pm)

heartless – I have the data and would be happy to email it to you. I do not have the ability to upload the data to this forum.

heartless November 10, 2020 (7:03 pm)

Unless you are the author of the study and have never uploaded it to the internet, it should be available to link. In short, I am asking where you came across this data.

If you for some reason you alone are in possession of specific “speed study data” that somehow relates to the current issues on West Marginal Way, you might easily share it by uploading it to a google drive and then sharing the link to that google drive. This is quite safe, and commonly done. (If you need further assistance, the methods used to upload something to a Google drive are simple and the instructions are easily found online.)

If you do this, then everyone here could take a look at your data. Until then, unfortunately, no amount of throwing around words like ‘data’ or ‘technical’ will convince anyone of anything–and nor should they.
zark00 November 11, 2020 (12:20 am)

MJ – same thing you said last time – some made up excuse about not being able to “post data” – yeah right. It doesn’t exist, so you can’t post it.Look how easy it is. Here’s an article about the NTSB directly refuting everything you said as completely untrue, and recommending the opposite.https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/08/11/the-85th-percentile-rule-is-killing-us/

Mj November 10, 2020 (10:11 pm)

heartless – I have the data obtained from a resource on the WSB Advisory Committee that had requested it from SDoT. It is a pdf file. It’s data SDoT has but I did not see it included on their website, likely because it does not fit their Agenda!

zark00 November 11, 2020 (12:26 am)

MJ – yeah that is 100% not true – you don’t have a PDF from SDOT with data on higher speed limits being safer, you don’t have that because that doesn’t exist. Did you mean THIS PDF from SDOT that actually proves you both are completely wrong, and made up some troublingly nutty stuff about data you have from SDOT and a what, bridge advisory committee?

https://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/SDOT/VisionZero/SpeedLimit_CaseStudies_Report.pdf
https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/safety-first/vision-zero/speedlimits

MJ November 11, 2020 (8:52 am)

zark00 – I am happy to send you the data, my email is mjjmjj@msn.com

Mj November 11, 2020 (7:03 am)

Zark00 – I said I had data from SDoT that the speed data they have on WMW SW shows the 85th speed went up at 4 of 6 locations after they arbitrarily lowered the limit. Per this speed data the speed limit could be 50 mph.

And yes in 30+ years conducting traffic work I have seen the studies clearly showing properly set speed limits results in fewer incidents.

Lagartija Nick November 11, 2020 (10:58 am)

MJ, fewer incidents does not equate to less severe injuries/fatalities, which is what Vision Zero is about. Also, it’s interesting that here you claim 30 plus years experience conducting traffic work (whatever that means) and in your comments regarding the West Seattle Bridge you claim 30 plus years experience as a bridge engineer. So, which is it? Are you a bridge engineer or a traffic guy? I suspect neither is true and you really have no credibility on either issue.

mj November 11, 2020 (8:59 am)

I’m not a techy, but here is a link to one drive

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=5F30778AD7910352&id=5F30778AD7910352%21166&parId=5F30778AD7910352%21143&o=OneUp

Mj November 11, 2020 (9:17 am)

zark00 – thank you, I learned how to add a link to comments.

The link shows the SDoT speed data on WMW SW and as I stated the data identifies a 50 mph speed limit per the 85th percentile speed could be signed, the prior 40 mph limit was in line with technical justification, the 30 mph speed limit IS NOT!

mj November 11, 2020 (9:26 am)

And now that I have figure out adding links, SDoT was provided a Conceptual Channelization Plan in June for the WMW SW at HPW SW intersection that took them 4 months to implement and they never acknowledged that the plan was provided by an outside expert!

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=5F30778AD7910352&id=5F30778AD7910352%21162&parId=5F30778AD7910352%21143&o=OneUp

heartless November 11, 2020 (11:57 am)

Yeah… I’m going to have to bow out of this conversation.

None of your links work, and you have shown zero evidence that a 50mph speed limit would be safer than a 30mph limit–a claim, I might add, that would need a WHOLE BUNCH OF EVIDENCE to support it, given there is, easily at hand, evidence pointing in the opposite direction (nod to Zark for providing examples of such data).

If data ever surfaces that a road like the one we’re discussing would be safer with a higher speed limit, feel free to share the evidence here. While traffic studies are not my bailiwick I am well versed in research and statistics, and I’d be happy to parse any data you manage to scrounge up. (Although last time we went through this I tore apart the “studies” you cited, so, yeah…)

Stay safe, y’all, and, I guess this no longer goes without saying, so I’ll say it here: please try not to speed from one traffic jam to the next. It’s dumb.

Mj November 11, 2020 (11:31 am)

Lagartija – I have never claimed to be a bridge engineer, however I have some basic knowledge from college classes on the subject.

I am a Traffic Engineering expert with over 1,000 studies conducted. I have also designed signals and am an expert in channelization planning. It’s an inconvenient truth the properly set speed limits improves safety!

heartless November 11, 2020 (2:04 pm)

I love when people refer to themselves as “expert.” Consider yourself a teacher? No, you are an Expert Educator. Why be a lawyer when you could instead be an expert litigator!

This guy isn’t just a traffic engineer–he’s a Traffic Engineering expert! Watch out, world!

Sorry for the snip, but this guy… Oh, man… The time I’ve wasted debunking this one guy… Arggggggh!!!

Mj November 11, 2020 (1:46 pm)

Heartless – I tested the links and they work, it’s inconvenient when the data shows results you do not want to see!

heartless November 11, 2020 (2:00 pm)

Mark,

You are, once again, in the wrong.The links you have provided take me to an empty page where it says “This item might not exist or is no longer available.”

As you said, inconvenient when the facts don’t support you, buddy.

Mj November 11, 2020 (5:33 pm)

Heartless – I just checked the link it works, actually the facts support my case. I can email you the data. But please stop questioning my experience on this matter, this is my bailiwick. What is really annoying is SDoT’s failure to adhere to the data!

heartless November 11, 2020 (8:04 pm)

The link works…. for you. It doesn’t work for me. Not sure why you can’t understand that.

Feel free to email me the data, WSBTrafficdata@gmail.com. We can go another round–remember last time? Wasn’t that fun?