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November 24, 2009 at 2:41 pm #593104
SmittyParticipantSimply because it doesn’t fit their agenda?
Where are you NPR?
NYTs?
Katie?
November 24, 2009 at 5:07 pm #682729
charlabobParticipantNPR is the MSM — in fact, it’s firmly planted on the right wing of the MSM. Same with NYT and Washington Post. Forget the concept of Main Stream Media — think *corporatist* media. NYT, Washington Post — all are part of big bidness; they’re the reason you think having the Dow go up somehow makes your life better.
Yup, the charlabob is back :-) Happy Turkey Day everyone.
November 24, 2009 at 5:11 pm #682730
JoBParticipantSmitty…
are you at all familiar with the amount of bickering and infighting in the scientific community as a whole???? no matter what scientific theory is being discussed?
Are you aware of the Bush Dark Ages of Science??? where the prevailing governmental policy was to rewrite climate information to prove there was no global warming?
Is it possible those emails were written in that science bashing climate .. or would that stretch your credulity too far???
Believe what you want.. but how exactly do we deny the vanishing glaciers in glacier national park? Or the vanishing polar ice caps? or ???
Somehow i don’t think any group of scientists has the ability to fake those…
You can choose to believe it is just another “normal” climate change but the science that points to human involvement in climate change is sound…
we have the ability to lessen the impact of our carbon excesses on this planet. What part of that doesn’t make sense?
i suspect drought and famine are not acceptable outcomes even to staunch republicans. We are already experiencing those as a result of climate change… not to mention those increasingly pesky increasingly destructive storms…
I understand the political tactic of finding any small crack in an argument or defaming those who promote the argument to claim victory for your point of view… but that’s political bluster.. not reality. Sensationalism isn’t science.
You have the data at your fingertips. Spend an hour or so exploring the world on google maps.
Or better yet, see for yourself. You might not be old enough to remember vast glaciers at Glacier National Park, but there are plenty of pictures and maps available and you can visit the current glaciers and examine their retreat yourself at the Park.
Then ask yourself what the impact of losing the snow packs that sit on those glaciers… slowing down the melt down process in the spring could possibly have on our ecosystem… our climate. It doesn’t take much investigation to discover that without all that ice our current water supply is in peril…
Glacier National Park is due east…
hang a left at Idaho.
November 24, 2009 at 5:20 pm #682731
JoBParticipantwhat charlabob said!
the concept that anything left of far right is far left is just another myth brought to you by the friendly folks who think you should spend more and get less..
it’s not that difficult these days to find the left news media.. but i admit it does take a little effort and sure challenges what you think is true.
if you listen to the news media.. even NPR.. even some of the organizations that promote “liberal” agendas.. we are in the midst of “progressive” health reform legislation…
perhaps it looks progressive in comparison to the total free market deregulation that has brought us the health care crisis.. but it is far from progressive…
unfortunatley.. you won’t find that on NPR…
November 24, 2009 at 8:31 pm #682732
SmittyParticipantJoB – is that an answer to my question? Will the MSM cover this or not?
The MSM treats skepticism about global warming as a mental defect.
Skeptics who’ve received a tote bag from some oil company are branded as shills, but scientists who live off of climate-change-obsessed foundations or congressional fiefdoms are objective, call-it-like-they-see-it truth seekers.
Personally, I think Global Warming is real – I just don’t think it’s man-made (or overly influenced by). I think Puget Sound was carved by a glacier – a glacier that has since receeded.
This has the potential to be a HUGE story – if the MSM sits on it much longer they become part of it.
November 24, 2009 at 9:10 pm #682733
KBearParticipantThere are also those who believe the moon landings were staged, and that the “MSM” were complicit in duping the public. The moon landing hoax would have been a huge story too, if it were true.
November 24, 2009 at 10:32 pm #682734
JoBParticipantthank you kbear..
all i could do was shake my head.
smitty..
the MSM is having a more difficult time justifying covering sensationalist non-news stories since America started expecting at least a modicum of actual truth
excepting FOX news of course.. where most news programs are entertainment creating their own headlines and the ever burgeoning cult of personality)…
not an expectation at the Telegraph..
James Delingpole is creating his next 5 minutes of fame in the great Brit news tradition … with more controversy and sensationalism.
I haven’t looked at the science behind Seattle’s geography, but a glacier wouldn’t surprise me since we knew they were here…
had we been living here at the time i am sure we would have applauded the glacier’s retreat..
but at the moment no-one with any sense is applauding the retreat of any glacier on the lower 48… or anywhere else either..
In Alaska shoreline communities are rapidly disappearing as the rising water claims the land natives were forcibly settled on by the US government.. Not much cheering there either.
What is different now is the speed at which the change is occurring.. and the speed at which we are adding pollution to our atmosphere and contributing to our own climate problems.
If we see houses disappearing into flood plains, we build dikes. Woudl we stop building Dikes and retaining walls simply because some people believe they will ultimately fail?
Why would taking action on cleaning up our atmosphere be any different?
A very small dose of common sense clarifies this issue pretty quickly.
November 24, 2009 at 11:06 pm #682735
SmittyParticipantKBear – Huh? These are emails from established Global Warming (or is is climate change?) scientists that show them changing the data to fit their needs. One email tells others how to change the data in order to “hide the decline” in global temps over the last 12 years.
Scary stuff that the MSM should be covering. Moon landing? I’m lost on that comparison.
JoB – it’s stories such as this one that give stations like Fox even more credibility. The MSM should be covering the damn story not sitting on it. Investigate like you do Wall Street corruption.
Volcanoes and cow farts lets out more Co2 than human beings ever will. The earth has historically been MUCH warmer (amd much colder)than it is now – it’s a joke to think humans could have any influence at all compared to such things as solar variations. This is a joke that the anti-capitalist/liberal establishment movement is playing on all of us.
November 25, 2009 at 2:24 am #682736
JoBParticipantSmitty..
whoa..
you read a whole lot more into James Delingpole’s op ed piece than i did.
you found scientists changing data?
i found scientists choosing which data to include to prove their point… something done in scientific communities every single day….
and i am quite sure done by the scientists who are supposedly debunking global warming…
AND… I found James Delingpole insinuating that something fishy was going on there…
after all one scientist actually commented on his relif at an opposing scientist’s death.. and therefore lack of ability to continue posting.. Can you imagine that? It’s only a leap and a bound to implicate him in the death..
ok.. heavy sarcasm there… but that does accurately reflect the level of investigative work on that piece… pure sensationalism. And you think our press ought to pick it up.
Hmmmm. Could you have an ulterior motive there?
If you look at the actual work of those scientists supposedly debunking global warming .. what you find is that they aren’t arguing that it isn’t happening or that people aren’t contributing..
they are simply arguing about the rate that people contribute to the problem…
that’s sort of like the BIG CONTROVERSY between whether there were thousand or millions of American Indians killed by small pox epidemics prior to the arrival of the pilgrims. Nobody says there weren’t more Indians here prior to their exposure to small pox.. they just argue the numbers.
Global warming isn’t a joke.
Neither are the latest figures on literacy for college graduates.. being able to read and interpret a basic scientific table and being able to accurately reflect the contents of written material.. 32%
ouch.
November 25, 2009 at 4:13 am #682737
dawsonctParticipantWonder why there are so many cows (and pigs and chickens, etc., but mostly cows), farting? And creating huge, untreated lakes of sewage, which also emit vast quantities of greenhouse gasses. Hope the lining doesn’t rip or the containment dike give out; whooee! Talk about a mess!
More so for the people living downstream, that is. You don’t think the huge trans-national corporations who run the factory farms pay much of the true cost of their environmental disasters, do you? (For a close parralel, see: Exxon Valdez). Or maybe we should cut huge swaths of Amazon rain forest (humans are employed to do the logging!) and turn it into pasture land for grazing more cheap cattle for the world (mostly human). I’m no genius, but it seems to me that if you replace hundreds of thousands of square miles of forest with hundreds of millions of cattle, you MAY influence the natural balance. But maybe not, what does Mother Nature know?
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My guess is that the presence of those cows on pastures that were recently rainforest is caused ENTIRELY by humans, but I am willing to entertain other possibilities. Maybe cows with guns?
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November 25, 2009 at 4:58 am #682738
dawsonctParticipantBut seriously, before you go and buy one of those shrink-wrapped pork chunks instead of going to The Swinery, read this. It is long, but it is important to understand what big agri-business does to us, and this only scratches the surface.
http://www.truthout.org/043009S
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My family in Indiana used to be farmers. Most of them raised hogs, and made a good enough living at it through the 60’s-70’s-80’s, that my uncle was able to retire in his early fifties. Now the last of my five cousins who were farmers is selling his farm off, bit by bit. He no longer raises hogs, he fattens them. He buys them on contract from Smithfield, feeds them, shoots them full of antibiotics and hormones, and sends them off to slaughter. Not much in it for him, but at least Indiana isn’t as bad as eastern N.C.
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We’re returning to the days of tennant farmers, sharecroppers, lords and serfs. Maybe the Tories are finally getting their revenge.
November 25, 2009 at 5:29 am #682739
JoBParticipantdawsoncourt…
you made my night. LOL… surely you aren’t insinuating that choices made by people have consequences? some people think taking responsibility for yourself only applies to welfare mothers and drunks
;-)
Act globally
Buy locally
November 25, 2009 at 6:30 am #682740
JeffroMemberActually, I heard about this from the “MSM”. Why here’s an article dated the 20th from the most MS of M’s: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/science/earth/21climate.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=global%20warming&st=cse. (edit – deleting arrogant and slightly personal statement).
It’s really a shame that the right-wing press goes so shrill over every non-story. If they ever uncovered a real scandal we’d never know it from having to sift through all the rest of their junk.
November 25, 2009 at 3:47 pm #682741
JoBParticipantJeffro..
thanks for uncovering this… an actual investigative bit of journalism…
what main stream media used to be known for…
i especially liked the comment by one of the climate change opponents who said the emails showed how far his opponents were willing to go to destroy the reputations of others…
a comment based on his reading of what he knew to be the stolen private emails of his colleagues.
it truly is amazing how far some people will go to destroy the reputations of others…
and yes.. it is a shame that the only thing the right wing press produces is sensationalism. I for one long for the days when i could read a well researched and well presented argument from the right.
November 25, 2009 at 5:40 pm #682742
SmittyParticipantWow, thanks Jeffro – that settles it!
Revkin writes a blog entry in the science section and the MSM is clear baby! No more research needed. Katie, continue making fun of people who golf during a time of war – unless it’s Obama.
(edit – deleting arrogant and very personal statement about liberal elitists who refuse to listen to anyone outside of their circle of influence)
November 25, 2009 at 6:35 pm #682743
dawsonctParticipantAhh, projection rears it’s head again.
November 25, 2009 at 7:27 pm #682744
dawsonctParticipantEven if the majority of the world’s climate scientists NOT employed by the primary producers of carbon-based pollutants and all the physical evidence even the lay-person can see are wrong, and human activities are, in fact, not the primary cause of massive global climate disruption, America’s continuing reliance on carbon fuels will put us at an economic disadvantage to the rest of the world from which we will never recover.
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Instead of wasting so much of our income protecting outdated industries, we should tell them to spend some of their record profits on restructuring themselves, or fail.
We should be promoting research into alternative energy, and supporting the American entrepreneurs who are putting their intellectual and fiscal capital on the line. As it is, we have Chinese corporations building wind farms in Texas. Sure, we see some benefits from the project, but the profits go back to the Communist dictatorship that is sucking the lifeblood from America.
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America needs to adapt, take care of American WORKERS (you, me, us, we), return industries to our shores, implement rules to not allow states to take advantage of each other, and level the playing field for Americans again. Revisit international trade and tariffs to reflect the standards and moral values of America. We can’t possibly compete economically with nations that use ultra low-wage- and slave-labor and have zero environmental standards.
November 25, 2009 at 7:39 pm #682745
dawsonctParticipantBesides, it is a REAL BIG, HUGE PHU**ING GAMBLE TO BE TAKING!!! I mean, COME ON! We are talking about our ONLY HABITABLE PLANET!
November 26, 2009 at 5:43 am #682746
JoBParticipantSmitty..
did you actually read Revkin’s article?
because if you had, you should have been hard pressed to characterize a well thought out and researched piece as a mere blog entry…
whether you agreed with it or not, you should have recognized the cogent manner in which he made his argument.
Because that is what a well researched and reasoned argument looks like.. no matter which side the author takes.
Can you explain to me why you would automatically identify someone who reads and understands an article that relies on research and reasoned argument instead of on innuendo and allusion as a “liberal elitist” ?
and what the h… is a liberal elitist anyway?
and what is elitist about wanting to do everything in our power to ensure a habitable planet?
I think it is elitist to care only about your own ability to consume regardless of who or what it puts at risk…
i think it is elitist to use religion or politics or greed to justify self serving behavior detrimental to the majority of those that live on this planet.
i think it is elitist to pursue your own personal agenda at the expense of others… just because you can.
maybe it is time to define the word elitist after all.. and a few dozen others that have been co-opted by the radical right…like patriot.. and conservative.. and …
it doesn’t matter how many times you hear a lie repeated.. it’s still a lie.
November 26, 2009 at 8:56 am #682747
JeffroMemberIt’s funny you deride the times article as a blog post when your main point of evidence is itself a blog post, an opinion piece, from a guy hawking a book about how evil Obama is. Five years ago Republican politicians were proclaiming all of global warming to be a hoax, now it’s “but the volcanoes did it”. All because you would rather deny the problem rather than try to work out a solution. It’s really par for the course. It reminds of the nineties when the GOP was in full denial mode about the dangers of second-hand-smoke in cigarettes, a position which seems truly laughable just ten years later.
November 26, 2009 at 11:13 am #682748
HMC RichParticipantSmitty, as our friend Jack Nicholson said to Tom Cruise, “You can’t handle the truth!’ This is grand. I find false science very disconcerting. I can’t fully get behind intelligent design because there isn’t enough science. I am so shocked.
When scientists fake their research, don’t allow peer review, discuss how to dodge Freedom of Information requests, you wonder why some people have railed against MAN MADE GLOBAL WARMING. If we were given the truth maybe we would be on board with some of these issues.
Academia/scientific research just had an atomic bomb go off and they can’t handle it. Just like the MSM is afraid to carry this story because daddy won’t bail them out if they do. They weren’t afraid to bring up global warming issues during the previous administrations tenure, why so quiet now?
As far as I and most rational people can tell, Climate change is real. We see the geologic/historic record. Ice Ages happen, global warming happens. Flash, 10,000 years ago the Wooly Mammoth didn’t believe in Ice Ages. Look what happened to them and the Sabretooth Cats.
Hey deniers . . . using science and history to prove a point. How many times are you going to say history doesn’t matter?
Because of the hysteria, people are trying to take advantage of us. Cap and trade is another way to control businesses and tax people. It’s an inconvenient truth when the truth comes out. Water Vapor is the most prevalent Green House gas. When the Norwegians were worried their reindeer passing too much gas, I had to light a match to clear the stench in the room. Give me a break. Oh Cows are bad for us. We must all become vegetarians! Wait, too many beans or tubers cause too much gas, guess you can only have a certain type of vegetable or fruit. Beef, it’s what for dinner. But don’t let fido have any because his carbon footprint is as much as a SUV.
Do I believe humans pollute the earth? Why of course and we should do what we reasonably can to keep this earth as clean as possible. But “reasonable” has different meanings for different groups. Al Gore, and the others are using us. Some genuinely care. They need to step forward and have an honest debate.
How about applying a little common sense, true research and a willingness to listen to all points of view. Maybe something good will come out of it. I know some day I will prefer Electric cars to gas guzzlers. I hate sucking in diesel fumes. Someday the hybrids and electric cars will be more affordable.
Fact is the Republicans did not make the “scientists” lie. Nope, no bait and switch allowed by progressives. Why Russian hackers did this is beyond me. The Right will make hay about this and they should along with the middle and left. This should be about the facts.
Jones and crew at CRU got nailed and some of you don’t like it. Talk about denial.
Busted. Cheaters. Liars.
Jeffro, where’s the love for honest disagreement? Obama is not evil. He is a progressive trying to force a big government agenda on us and is sending us deeper into debt (with a smile on his face). It is apparent he doesn’t like the limits set by the Constitution but with a filibuster proof House and Senate, he doesn’t have to worry too much about that document. Now, I must admit, it is nice not to breathe second hand smoke in a restaurant or bar. Why don’t both parties ban it? Republicans and Democrats love Big Tobacco. It funds so many of their precious programs. And if it is so bad, why do the pro cannabis people want to legalize marijuana? There are probably a few carcinogens in that too. Shut up and scrape the resin from your bong. By the way, how much does smoking pot hurt the environment? The question is, how truthful are the scientific findings on second hand smoke? hmmmm? Their evidence seemed reasonable but now that the East Anglia Scientists stretched the truth a whole bunch, maybe some other scientists did the same. Didn’t a korean get convicted recently for false science about cloning? Autism caused by vaccines has been debunked too! I guess we can’t always trust science. In reality, we can’t trust some people to tell the truth. Too bad, because we want to believe in people. I know I do but they keep messing it up.
November 26, 2009 at 1:24 pm #682749
KenParticipantActual details:
And a thanksgiving present for the birthers:
Enjoy. :)
November 26, 2009 at 4:02 pm #682750
SmittyParticipantJeffro – it’s the sun actually. And is it me, or is less than a 1 degree (F) rise in temperature over the last 100 years seem rather reasonable?
JoB – my liberal elite remark was a (failed) attempt to make fun of Jeffro’s edit. And, the reason my original post referenced a blog entry is because the MSM WON’T COVER IT – THAT’S THE POINT!
HMC – nice post.
Ken – Dailykos? Really? Let’s make more fun of Faux News while we’re at it.
November 26, 2009 at 5:48 pm #682751
JoBParticipantHMCRich..
“Fact is the Republicans did not make the “scientists” lie.”
Uh… actually.. our White House that overseas the reports from governmental research agencies did “filter” scientific evidence to support their non-scientific positions during the republican Bush White House.
“Obama is not evil. He is a progressive trying to force a big government agenda on us and is sending us deeper into debt (with a smile on his face).”
Uhh… progressive???? … the only thing progressive about Obama’s policies so far is the label that has been stuck on them. Left of far right is not progressive.
As for the big government thing… the democratic president before this one cut big government… the republican who followed expanded it exponentially…
and tanked our economy to the point that they only viable employer left was the US government.
it should be difficult to blame Obama for employing Americans during a recession that should have been labeled a depression.. but apparently not.
There is such a dissonance between republican rhetoric and reality that it is no wonder so many are so confused.
Smitty…
if a blog entry is good enough to bring the subject up.. then a blog entry is good enough to counter the post.
and that doesn’t begin to address the differences in actual content between the two entries.
perhaps the reason main stream media.. which has no problem at all promoting a right wing agenda.. has not covered this as the scandal James Delingpole would like to make of it is because there is nothing but smoke and mirrors there.
It’s a real sad comment on our scientific community that so much of what is done in the name of science is conducted like a war metaphor.. with both sides marshaling “evidence” and striking out to prove their point with little or no interest in discovering the complexities of the truth…
but perhaps that is because the public itself has no interest in complexities.. having been fed 10 second sound bites as excuses for information for so long that they have no interest in anything deeper.
You may choose to simplify the global warming issue to the measure of only one degree.. but how does that explain the melting polar caps.. or the rise in sea levels.. or the increase in frequency of 100 year storms… or …. ???
one degree doesn’t seem like much until the glaciers disappear and the melting snow pours in torrents off the mountains in a mad rush for the sea instead of trickling down and being absorbed .. producing the water supplies we depend upon.
it doesn’t take a rocket scientist.. or in this case a climatologist.. to figure out something that isn’t so good for people is going on here… and if people want to survive.. let alone thrive.. they need to do something about it.
HMCRich is right.. there are so very poor excuses for solutions being promoted in the name of climate change.. but it’s pretty difficult to focus on effective solutions when you are still debating the need for solutions… and almost impossible to pass anything in that climate that would be effective..
kind of like the excuse for reform that is barely clawing it’s way past the kill your granny rhetoric …
Every day we do nothing increases someone’s bottom line..but it also brings us one step closer to being unable to do anything effective other than build biospheres.. which aren’t going to look like such a joke if we don’t make some pretty significant changes. This is a big planet and the changes are going to have to be significant to make a difference… but it is still possible to do so.. if we start now.
As for the DailyKos.. i agree that i choose to get my daily input of news from a less sensationalized source.. but at least DailyKos gives lip service to actual news and fact..
unlike Fuax news which echoes it’s commentators in it’s news broadcasts… creating it’s own buzz which becomes it’s own news… :)))) and people buy it.
There’s the part that is no joke. People buy the talking heads talking about what other talking heads have to say on their own channel as actual news…
while FOX vigorously and successfully defended it’s right to ignore the truth in it’s own programming… a federal judge ruled that it was not necessary for news programming to be factual… even if the producers were in possession of facts that absolutely refuted their point of view.. they were not responsible to provide those facts to the public.
This is what the FOX news organization contributed to the main stream media… and you wonder why it was dubbed FAUX news…
BTW.. that MSM thing you go on about.. main stream media… i am betting it means different things to the two of us… you do know that FOX news is part of the main stream media.. don’t you?
the sorry truth is that they often drive the content of our evening news with the manufactured buzz from their “entertainment” programs :(((
no wonder i have given up the nightly news in favor of print media… reading leaves you time to think about the veracity of what you just read before you are hustled along to the next non-issue.
November 26, 2009 at 7:34 pm #682752
dawsonctParticipantIt is quite a bit more than one degree in the polar regions, and more destructive than the melting of ice caps will be the melting of permafrost and the resulting dump of CO2 into the atmosphere. It will be like driving off a cliff.
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