Why vote?

[Caduceus]

Note: Please take anything I say that offends you with a grain of salt, I’m not looking to start a fight. This is an honest inquiry.

Do you vote? Why or why not?

I am not going to, this next election is going to be the first election I’ll be eligible to vote for.

I have a few simple reasons that I can elaborate on later, if necessary or if I’m asked.

1. I do not believe I should have to chose between the lesser of two (potential) evils.

2. A party system is completely flawed and ridiculous. The chances of someone insightfully sharing ALL the views of a specific party and ONLY the views of that specific party is going to be a rare find.

If you agree with some points the republicans make, and also the democrats then you are UNDECIDED. You may have a preference, but that is something entirely subjective.

You can call me naive or anything you’d like but it’s basic logic and simple common sense that media exposure and continuous deceit should not chose out next president, and we should not have warring parties if we’re trying to pawn off our country as being “United”.

3. Regardless of who is the president, we have a branched government, a president will be able to make few actual changes without having political influence over the other branches.

I’m not going to rant about corruption and begin a debate as we all know it exists. Granted we may not know the extent, or possibly how much it may be exaggerated, but it is surely there.

You do recall our last election? Even the news stations thought Gore won for a second there. But then oh wait! Bush won by a landslide after the recount. (I apologize for my over-exaggeration and sarcasm, I can’t help it, our last election was just ludicrous.)

We as “the people” will never be in any form of passive control. It just will not happen, our country was founded on force and has been molded by force. You can picket and stand outside of a City Hall and yell all you want. You are doing very, very, little. Nothing short of a revolution will change our country, not Barrack and certainly not McCain.

I do not see why I should have to chose between the lesser of two (potential) evils. I do not see why people who watch Fox News feel like they’re getting an honest scoop of politics and allow the media to influence their decision.

There is even an off-chance your vote won’t even be counted, because of a hacked machine or a faulty machine or that awful C word (Corruption, :P ) Or if your community uses ballads, perhaps you didn’t punch it correctly and they toss it away? Etc.

Again I’m not trying to push buttons I’m honestly curious as to why people vote. I personally do not know anyone who takes voting seriously. (Not counting of course, random/brief acquaintances)

And I am genuinely inquiring to you all, as anyone who reads these forums can see, are blatantly intelligent, as to why you vote or do not vote.

Again I’m not trying to instigate anything I am just too ignorant to see the point I suppose and this is an honest inquiry. Thank you in advance!

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[JimmyG]

This will be the first election in 27 years that I’m choosing not to vote in.

My updated voter registration card showed up in the mail on Tuesday and I tore it in half and threw it in the recycle bin.

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[JanS]

So…a question..an honest one. What do YOU think would happen if we all took your stance?

And by the way, I take voting seriously. My daughter is 27 and takes voting seriously..if nothing else it give us the right to bitch if things aren’t going the way we like. No vote? ya can’t complain…just my opinion.

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[Caduceus]

To JanS:

If we all decided not to vote under a system of segregated political parties? As in the majority if not every American, then the system would fall apart.

But why do you take it seriously? What is your motivation, what inspires you to put forth the effort to go and vote when it could all be for not?

And fortunately in this case, I’m not one to complain, I’m one to question in the pursuit of knowledge. :P

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[Zenguy]

I would ask you to please reconsider voting. The national election is not the only race in town and there will be a ton of local races that need everyones votes as well.

I have never missed an election since I was elegible to vote, I consider it a duty and a priviledge to educate myself and vote responsibly.

Democracy only works if people participate.

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[WSB]

Personal opinion here:

I have voted in absolutely every election I’ve been eligible to vote in, since the very first one after my 18th birthday. It was something small and mundane like a sewer board in Las Vegas, where I lived at the time.

I am still thrilled, 30 years later, to have the right and the privilege to vote. Yeah, I am not happy about many of the candidates. But down the ballot, there are a variety of EXTREMELY IMPORTANT local choices to be made. Do you want taxes to go up to pay for more parks? To fix up Pike Place Market? To fund Sound Transit projects?

From pre-dawn till well after midnight, we sit around and type our fingers to a nub about what’s going on in and around West Seattle. So much of it requires participation. Way too often – and I don’t just mean voting – the participation is at a pathetically low level. There are the same few dozen people who seem to make EVERYTHING run because they care so much, even though they are tired and overcommitted, they just can’t stand to see NO ONE show up.

If you are choosing to do something else with your time, what is it? I totally admit that for 15-plus years of living in West Seattle, while commuting to my downtown media jobs that ate up about 12 hours a day (and often some weekend days too), I didn’t do squat for my community. Trying to make up for it now. But there wasn’t much openly available information then about what needed to be done and how to get involved. Now – partly because of our site, and because of organizations stepping up their Web presence etc. – there is.

End of soapbox. I am always sorry to hear about people not voting. Certainly part of our system is to make sure you have a choice, that you don’t HAVE to. But I know you’re not “not voting” because you don’t care. We have a couple of north end friends like that … they spend hours writing these impassioned e-mails about political causes and issues and community challenges, and then say oh by the way, we don’t vote.

-TR

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[JanS]

what Zenguy said.

And…to take your answer further…what would happen if the system falls apart? What is a better system for you? What exactly would you like to see that you think would be better than the imperfect system we have now? It’s fine to just say “F**k it, I’m not gonna bother, ’cause it ain’t workin’ in my book”..but…what is your better solution?…this is asked of JimmyG, too.

You are both complaining…what’s your better way? other than just walking away and leaving it up to someone else?

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[Caduceus]

Let’s say someone sits you down and gives you two math equations.

1+1=11 and 1+1=3

And they ask you which is the correct answer, and you know that literally 1 plus another 1 in a visual sense equals an “11”.

And if you’re the creative type you recognize that

the number 1 and the + are both individual symbols.

Therefore 1+1=3(symbols, with the = being the divider between the question and the answer.)

But at the same time 1+1=2

Either way you’re right, and wrong.

Do you just pick one, or do you make some attempt to explain to the person sitting you down, that there are multiple answers?

And let’s say you try and voice your opinion, but it largely falls upon deaf ears, because you are simply one person in the recognized whole.

I believe under a more preferable society, where people don’t… spend hours watching reality TV, allow their bodies to go to waste, stand by or perhaps goad on a fight, refuse to make any attempt to understand, care less. A system where there would be a reliable communications system in place where everyone has the opportunity to vote on all the individual subjects. Rather then electing people to do it for you.

Something developed that is no more difficult than checking your e-mail.

Only much like the concept of Communism; it sounds alright if not good on paper, but it doesn’t take into account the nature of our species. And our large flaws.

But I suppose you could look at our current system the same way…

So would a system relative to my vague preferable one be more constructive? I don’t know, but I can tell you that I wouldn’t mind finding out.

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[JoB]

Caduceus..

I can understand your frustration with our system. I have shared the same frustration since my teens. But non participation isn’t the way to change things.

There have been years when the participation in presidential elections in our country was pathetic… and yet the system played on with or without voters…

if you choose not to vote.. it’s simply seen as apathy.. not as protest. If you choose to vote in such a way that your vote is not counted, it is simply seen as voter stupidity.. not as protest.

if more people who could vote… had cared enough to vote in the last election… that could have made a difference.. if enough voted it would have made a difference…

Ask those who lived through Katrina if having a functioning FEMA would have made a difference to them?

Ask those who are suffering the consequences of the EPA being gutted by policies that are in direct contradiction of the law if that would have made a difference to them.

Ask those who are losing their houses now.. and those who have simply seen their equity fall because of nothing more than profiteering in the mortgage market if functioning regulators would have made a difference?

There are so many ways that policy set by the white house can have a direct affect on our daily lives.

We have the opportunity in this election to turn the tide of political power in our nation.. both president and congress… for the first time since the Vietnam war… we have to elect them before we can hold them accountable… and that takes votes.

i hate it when i have to vote… NOT…I would love to have a candidate that i couldn’t wait to get into the ballot box to vote for… but in my experience, those candidates are once in a lifetime candidates and generally happen when you are either very young or very old.

No system is perfect… but you stand a better chance of getting more of what you want out of your government if you participate in making those choices you are given… than if you don’t.

Our system of checks and balances is imperfect.. and exceedingly complicated… Running a nation isn’t quite the same as running a community in town meetings..

if you want a real lesson in community based politics, you should ask to attend a community meeting for one of the housing coops… decisions there are made at a glacial pace because of the need to build consensus… but you quickly learn that there is more to what seems a simple decision affecting the community than meets the eye…

as is true in all politics.

and… there is no assurance that internet voting would be any less subject to fraud than our current ballot machines….

I too want a more perfect system… but you have to start with what you have if you want to affect change.

it’s that way in our own personal lives.. and it’s that way in our society.

Use your vote to move towards what you want…

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[Anonymous]

C- I would do well by starting off my comments as you started off yours. Good man or woman and thanks for the idear.

IMO, voting in King County is a crap shoot as to whether your vote will be counted anyway. “Every vote counts” is BS because some real votes are lost, some real votes are found when the recount happens, votes are not counted because your signature didn’t match or you moved a block a way, etc, etc but count a dead persons vote please! So many problems have been reported over the last 4 years that it’s hard to have faith in casting a ballot. What a shame to have put so much thought and research into making an informed decision, all for not.

Yes, both parties have corrupt, rich members despite what one party says. And true on point 3, seems like most people don’t understand this 3 branches of government thingy. To hear a majority of folks talk on this blog, in the general media, around the water cooler etc .. one would think we lived in a monarchy!

Whether you like or dislike a politician, show some respect for the office!

I do vote so I do feel entitled to complain but I sure seem to piss peeps off when I complain or try to make a point.

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[datamuse]

I vote because sitting around until a better system comes along strikes me as counterproductive.

The “lesser of two evils” argument makes it sound like the presidential race is the only one where one’s vote could possibly be important. As lowmanbeach has already pointed out, that’s demonstrably untrue.

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[JoB]

wsblover…

you won’t p.. this little old lady off by complaining..

i think we should all complain loudly.. and often!

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[Anonymous]

wsblover…

you will piss me off with your complaining because you stated that all the democrat comments on here show we are close minded, intolerant, and smarmy. Can’t say that encourages me to listen or participate in a discussion with you.

Later you said we shouldn’t make assumptions about you by your words on here, as it is not an accurate reflection of the whole person. I’m waiting for you to retract your assumptions.

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[Caduceus]

I see where you’re coming from JoB, but all the problems you have stated could have been more easily solved by unity of the people.

For example the victims of Katrina knew they were in a hurricane zone, and they knew their levees needed fixing. They aren’t strangers to the damage a hurricane can bring and there are an infinite number of possibilities that could have been wielded to force those levees to be fixed in order to protect their lives and their well-being.

Which is where my statement about a more preferable society comes in.

Perfection is something Nature itself has been working on for quite some time, so it isn’t likely everyone is just going to get over the basic flaws in human nature.

Perhaps in a better society fraud wouldn’t be so looming if “internet voting” were established (although in my previous post I was simply referencing the concept of simplicity, not necessarily the internet). And if we established severe punishments for things like that, it would deter people from doing it.

How much more likely would someone be to take part in fraud if the consequence of being caught was death, or something more extreme. Compared to a fine and jail time with the opportunity to get leave on parole.

Granted I’m being painfully idealistic but I just don’t understand how electing someone in the hopes that they do what we want them to do rather than us just coming together and doing them ourselves.

Violence in general is seen as “primitive” and “barbaric”.

6. damage through distortion or unwarranted alteration

Our government does this all the time, and we’re simply supposed to put someone else in an office to fix all of our problems?

If their property, investments and much more extremely, their lives were in jeopardy I’m sure their tunes would change much more quickly then every 4 years.

If a bully takes a kid’s lunch money everyday, and the teacher never does anything directly about it and the problem persists what options does the kid have? Find a new teacher, one who may or may not be consistent with discipling the bully, which may or may not even be effective to begin with?

And what if said kid gets like-minded individuals together and out number the bully 20 to 1 and exclaim that the consequences of his cruelty may possibly include bodily harm, do you think he’ll persist then?

And perhaps the bully then tells a teacher, and the teacher goes to discipline the students. What if then the rest of the students stand behind them, supporting their “cause”.

They aren’t going to discipline every student, give them all detentions, suspensions or expel them all. Everything would be at risk, everything the teachers control and take part in from the academic standards, to their pay, to the children even being enrolled at all.

The teachers would take the simplest most effective route which would be a fair passive approach to the situation.

And if that didn’t happen and the teachers called a bluff, all it would take is for the students to act.

The example is a far stretch from the complexity of the real world but the bold outline is the same.

And it would also take a massive social jolt to even bring this about to begin with but it isn’t impossible.

I just do not understand the point in having an overly-complex, and hypocritical government when all that it’s there for is to solve our problems for us.

I am not proposing we should all be anarchists and blow things up.

I just don’t see why voting to support a flawed system that seems to be breaking more things than it’s fixing is worthwhile.

And maybe Obama will charge headstrong into change, and totally rearrange the face of America. Or maybe he’s a politician trying to be elected, only time will tell.

But this system is too deeply flawed to last for very long, it’s already steadily declining downhill as presidents are trying to give themselves more power throughout the decades.

Eventually people will wake up, and they won’t be starving themselves, or hanging themselves in their garages at the age of 12, or putting racial slurs in every other sentence, or shooting up schools because their mental will couldn’t last a lifetime of ridicule, people won’t be conned into buying a $500 purse that only costs $15 to make, and people will realize that diamonds aren’t worth the money in gas it took to get to the jewelry store, and eventually people will lose the capacity to needlessly hate and things will change and there won’t be a place for such a flawed and biased system.

So why put up with it now, why don’t we just get a headstart on change?

Note: I am aware it takes more than impulse to accomplish what I speak of, which is why I’m emphasizing unity as a whole, and as a nation and the growth of us as a nation into a more constructive and positive one. I am not under-estimating what I’m speaking of, although I am generalizing a bit since I’ve already written a novel here. :P

Everyone just seems so over-all content with such a flawed system that causes them so much grief, and everyone acts like it isn’t their problem to inspire change in other individuals and we should all hopelessly wait for someone else to do it.

I guess I see supporting this segregated party, branched government system as back-peddling. And I don’t understand how someone can see it any other way.

Again I mean no offense, which is why I’m asking to be educated so I can understand where you are all coming from as individuals. I do not mean to imply that if you support our current government that you are inferior to anyone else or anything like that. I am just explaining where I am coming from so we are able to have a more personal and informative discussion.

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[JanS]

but…what are YOU going to do to change things…what are You specifically planning to do to enact change, besides not vote? I think we all want to know, at least I do. To say how you feel about things is one thing, to have an idea about how you would like it to be is one thing..but what do YOU specifically plan to do to change the things that you see are wrong, besides..well, ostrich with head in sand comes to mind, or maybe taking yourself off to some private island..I dunno…but you’re here now…and you can’t just lay it out there and question without an answer of your own ..not trying to be argumentative here.You can’t leave it up to someone else. I’m asking just what you asked of the people on this forum…to be educated. I can tell you’ve given lots of thought to the reason(s) why you’re not going to vote..but except for that, no even pie in the sky ideas but taking things in our own hands. Like…who gets to decide who is going to be put to death for their “fraud”…and what kind of death…who decides? the masses? do you pick a “ringleader” in your group (mass)? These are all things that pop into my mind as I read what you say…and thanks for saying them, by the way..interesting topic for making one think..

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[JoB]

Caduceus..

i really want to go there with you.. but the thing is that i have already been there.. done that.. and got my own FBI file for arguing with some of the guys who advocated actual revolution in my misbegotten youth …

Yes, the system is corrupt. It has always been corrupt.

it sounds as though you have read some history…. i’d love to hear about any system that exists or once existed that was not corrupt.

It hurts my heart to hear you push the responsibility for disaster preparedness and disaster relief on those who were most affected by Katrina.

Should the people on the interstate hiway bridge in Minneapolis have also advocated for safer bridges?

The levy failure and the bridge collapse fall under the same umbrella…. America’s crumbling infrastructure. Both projects were federal projects.. both the levy and the bridge were known to be at high risk for failure… they are the results of deferred maintainance… of a combination of lower taxes on the rich, diversion of tax subsidies to corporations and to funding the Iraq war… not entirely republican responsibility.

FEMA however, is another story.. unique to the Bush administration. The failure at FEMA was directly related to making the leadership at FEMA a political appointment and to gutting the agency to divert funds and resources to a Homeland Security department which has yet to do much more than spy on citizens and hinder air travel.

And that political move is a direct consequence of young voter apathy in the last presidential election. People like you who.. who likely would have voted for the lesser evil of a democratic president.. but didn’t want to contribute to a corrupt system… or just didn’t think it mattered.

It matters. One of the two candidates for President is going to set policy in the administration.. the part of the government that provides services.. and that policy is going to affect how well those services are provided to you.

You might want to have a say in whether or not FEMA is returned to the prepared disaster relief agency it once was.. after all, we live in both a known earthquake zone and a known volcanic zone…

or the EPA is required to prosecute violators of environmental law.. or…. the list is literally endless.

the elections aren’t just about what politician will sit in what seat.. or which party will win… but about what services you can rely on from your government…

That’s something you might want to have a say in…

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[JoB]

my apologies…

i didn’t mean to dump so hard on young people who didn’t vote in the last election … the new movie Stealing America makes it very clear that there was far more going on than just voter apathy…

i just wanted to make a point.. and that is that it is important to cast your vote. Refusing to participate does have consequences beyond the personality contest they make of the larger races.

As for the corruption of the process and of governing itself… i honestly believe that if the democrats get elected to power and don’t deliver.. there will be a real movement in this country towards a viable third party… which at least for a while will have to deliver on it’s campaign promises to stay viable.

caduceus.. i don’t think you have any idea how little many people my age like the current process or how much we want to see it change… or how much we are willing to demand it changes.

The long suffering democrats include more than a fair number who are not party hacks… who call themselves democrats but whose political philosophy falls outside the current party spectrum…. but… who believe there will be no opportunity for political progress in this country as long as the republicans remain in power.

the disaffected youth are not the only group demanding change…

if you read the political threads on this forum.. you will find that most of us are not buying anything hook line and sinker…

progress has to start somewhere.. and our best shot at a beginning right now is this election…

please reconsider voting.

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[charlabob]

Perhaps I’m just in a mood, but I don’t see any reason for people who are this disaffected to vote. In fact, now that we have the interesting euphemism of “low information voters” I’d be happy if a lot more people didn’t vote.

Meanwhile, wsblover, please cite, with specific examples, proved cases of voter fraud in Washington. There are allegations. I could allege that you and NR, the two republican forum frequent posters, participate in voter fraud and kitten-cide. That would not make it true. As I said, I want specifics.

I’m sure you know, Dino Rossi made the same claim and the Repub Federal Prosecutor and State Attorney general both investigated and found no evidence/cases. I’m sure they were both highly motivated to find fraud. In fact, the federal prosecutor was one of the eight fired by nonconvicted felon Alberto Gonzales; 6 of the others also refused to bring false charges to influence the 2004 elections.

Now Rossi is running a campaign claiming he should get the job that was stolen from him last time. He knows better.

I’m really fed up with conventional wisdom that is, in fact, conventional deception.

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[JoB]

charlabob..

once again, we respectfully disagree.

i want every American to care enough to make it to the polls and vote… no matter how they vote.

more than that, i want every American to have a mail in ballot that they can ponder in the privacy of their own homes…

and i want each of those ballots hand counted…

or i want the programming in any type of voter machine.. including optical scanning.. independently verified by an outside commission…

the people are one of the checks and balances in our system.. and the only way their voices are heard is through the vote.

without them, you have government by special interests… whether that is organized voting blocks or corporations.. the result is the same.

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[charlabob]

We don’t actually disagree — I simply think that people who don’t passionately care and don’t want to vote shouldn’t do so.

The system isn’t by any means perfect, but it is much better than people know. (The bob and i got involved in elections as observers and then as temp workers during the rossi-gregoire recount) You weren’t here then, but you should read up on that particular history — it’s pretty amazing!

It was a minimum wage temp job that became a full time obsession; an obsession with getting it right — not with electing democrats. :-)

Verifying the programming is a good idea — I’m sure it’s done, but, as a software test geek, it can never be done too much or too well.

County elections is actually an independent organization, but a commission would be fine too.

I happen to believe that our obsession with the possibility of computer fraud and paper trails is a wonderful diversion to keep us from noticing the massive voter disenfranchisement that really makes a difference.

For instance, what happened in Ohio and Florida in 2000 and 2004 could have happened without a single touch screen. The attorney general stopped the recount. The Supreme Court stopped the recount. Didn’t matter what was being counted, paper or bytes, did it?

And, finally, KC is scheduled to move to all mail ballots with the election in February. We’ve voted absentee, hence by mail, since we’ve been here and we always spend at least a weekend studying, arguing, and filling in the ballots.

BTW, one (to me rather remarkable) feature of KC elections is that you can virtually trace your ballot as it moves through the system. If it has been challenged (signature — address — whatever) that shows up in the online record. Finally, you can see when your vote has been officially counted.

I asked wsblover to give us proved solid cases of fraud because the fact is that the idea of rampant fraud is a fraud! Both nationally and in KC, it is a minor problem compared with illicit voter disenfranchisement, such as has already been practiced in Colorado and South Carolina. When you’ve been disenfranchised, oops — maybe next election. There is no recount.

You (and others concerned) should seriously think about working at KC elections — either as an observer for whichever party you’re associated with, or as a temp worker. They *always* need more help and it actually is fun.

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[Anonymous]

JT, I never said ALL Dems are smarmy etc.. You guys are amazing!

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[Anonymous]

CharlaBob, I didn’t think I had to give specifics since it was all over the news for weeks!

I am so fed up with this message board and blog.

Good bye!

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[charlabob]

No, allegations were all over the news for weeks. Allegations are not fraud.

I gather your exit means no examples will be forthcoming. :-(

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[JoB]

wsblover..

charlabob has a personal investment in the accuracy of King county elections… so of course she would ask you for verification…

and as we all should well know by now, just because it is in the news or on the net doesn’t make it true… accusations are just that.. accusations.. until they are proven or disproven. Unfortunately, the proof or lack of proof doesn’t get as much coverage as accusations.

this morning i found out the urban legend about Mr Rogers tattoos was not true:(

I so wanted that one to be true…

Speaking for myself.. if i get testy about something.. please try to consider it an opportunity to learn… as i try to consider some of the links i follow from this forum an opportunity to learn.

Whether our political affiliation is republican or democrat, we are all better citizens if we are better informed.

charlabob..

i did work the elections in Minnesota… verifying and eventually counting mail in ballots… i hadn’t thought of working here .. but i will think about it.

and i too vote by mail. i think it is the smartest thing to do. Anyone can request vote by mail.

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[charlabob]

JoB, you are completely wrong! My question has nothing to do with KC elections — it has to do with state wide allegations of fraud in the Rossi-Gregoire election, along with the illegal attempt of a Republican hack to challenge (and disenfranchise) voters in Belltown and other precincts in 2006.

If no one says, “OK, name one,” we rule by rumors.

The rumor-mongers depend on that intellectual laziness. I’m very lazy, but not intellectually so. :-)

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[Author]

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