Unreasonable Speed Limit SW Admiral Way

[Carson]

I live close to Hooper, I have met him, I don’t doubt his credentials at all, especially sine we had this conversation 8 months ago when he moved here….

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[Al]

Personally, I’d like to see Avalon reduced to 30 mph as well.

This is an interesting statement no one has questioned:

“…And when the limit was reasonably posted at 35 MPH you likely would have been traveling at 37 MPH making the speed differential significantly less; thus safer traffic operations.”

The speed differential is caused by the SPEEDING car going 13 mph OVER the legal, posted speed limit on the street. Not the slower vehicle going 32 (two miles over the speed limit obviously). The slower vehicle is being blamed here…is this another case of “me first, me first?”

And slower moving traffic kills? LOL – that’s laughable. It’s speed that kills. Show me where a study is done in which driving slower is less safe on congested roadways (with peds, bikes, and multiple street crossings) and the cause is not due to a vehicle driving too fast in the first place.

Scroll down to “Speed Kills”

http://www.smartmotorist.com/traffic-and-safety-guideline/what-causes-car-accidents.html

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[hooper1961]

the safest traffic speed is the one most motorists feel comfortable driving at; that is why the 35 MPH limit operated more safely (fewer accidents) than the arbitrary 30 MPH limit. Reference City of Seattle accident data!

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[hooper1961]

Speed Limits

State law (RCW 46.61.400) sets Washington’s basic speed law and the maximum speed limits for state highways, county roads, and city streets. The statute also authorizes agencies to raise or lower these maximum speed limits, when supported by an engineering and traffic investigation.

Most states have a basic speed law which recognizes that driving conditions and speeds may vary widely from time to time. No posted speed limit can adequately serve all driving conditions. Motorists must constantly adjust their driving behavior to fit the conditions they meet. Speed limits encourage consistent travel speeds, fostering safety for the traveling public by reducing the speed differentials between motor vehicles.

Speed limits reflecting the speed most motorists naturally drive are selected in part by determining the “85th percentile speed” (the speed that 85 out of 100 vehicles travel at or below). This method is based on the principle that reasonable drivers will consider roadway and roadside conditions when selecting travel speeds.

When setting speed limits, engineers also consider other factors like:

* Roadway characteristics, shoulder condition, grade, alignment, and sight distance

* Roadside development and lighting

* Parking practices, e.g., angle parking, and pedestrian and bicycle activity

* Collision rates and traffic volume trends

* Right lane/entering traffic conflicts (for freeways)

The range of travel speeds is reduced when speed limits are set near the 85 th percentile speed and adjusted for the other influencing factors.

My Traffic Study for the corridor is based on Nationally recognized criteria. SDOT (Seattle Department of Transportation) has never refuted my analysis or have they been willing to submit to a 3rd party peer review.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/…/speedlimits.htm

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[JanS]

so…if a whole passle of us “feel comfortable” driving that stretch at 60 mph, that’s what it should be, since that would be “the safest”? Is that what you’re saying? Or did I interpret that wrong (I’m no engineer)?

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[hooper1961]

The speed limit per the 85th speed would be 45 to 50 MPH on the section of SW Admiral Way. In fact one of the analysis programs I investigated recommended a Speed Limit of 45 MPH. I used the methodology developed by King County that includes a number of factors (pedestrians, driveways, alignment, lane width etc). Using very conservative inputs resulted in a 35 MPH recommendation. Using less conservative input results in a 40 MPH recommendation. Thus per Nationally recognized procedures the average speed limit recommendation is 40 MPH, 35 MPH is technically reasonable (that is what was posted for years prior to June 2006, and it operated safely and efficiently).

Your interpretation is correct; fortunately most motorists are reasonable making your point moot. Further, there are engineering factors to account for. The SDOT simply failed to adhere to recognized criteria and the result is a less safe Arterial Street corridor.

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[Carson]

Hooper, I don’t doubt your numbers but…I have no clue what the average speed currently is at say, 39th and Admiral, but I can tell you its way too fast. Its too fast for safe car travel and its WAY too fast for any pedestrian to try and cross to get to the many bus stops along Admiral. It doesn’t matter if the limit is 20 or its 40 if its not enforced and right now, NO speed limit seems to be enforced. It would seem you are fighting the wrong battle here.

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[hooper1961]

39th and Admiral is not the section being questioned. the section with the incorrect speed limit is s/o SW Olga Street to the West Seattle Bridge. This section was correctly posted at 35 MPH for years prior to June 2006. The City illegally revised the Speed Limit, Washington State Law mandates a Traffic Study be performed, no such study was done by the City prior to the change as required by State law.

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[EmmyJane]

Wow, I don’t get it. There’s a professional offering his PROFESSIONAL opinion on here and people are ripping him apart? The internet never ceases to amaze me.

Thank you Hooper for the information and for trying to do something about what you’ve identified as a safety concern.

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[Al]

So you may know your traffic engineering, but seriously, where are you from? And physics has a lot to do with speed killing…are you up on your physics? This is a well known calculation below – are you familiar with it?

“…The problem is that exceeding the speed limit by only 5 mph in the wrong place can be just as dangerous. Traffic engineers and local governments have determined the maximum speeds allowable for safe travel on the nation’s roadways. Speeding is a deliberate and calculated behavior where the driver knows the risk but ignores the danger. Fully 90% of all licensed drivers speed at some point in their driving career; 75% admit to committing this offense regularly…

“…a pedestrian walks out in front of a car. If the car is traveling at just 30 mph, and the driver brakes when the pedestrian is 45 feet away, there will be enough space in which to stop without hitting the pedestrian. Increase the vehicle speed by just 5 mph and the situation changes dramatically. At 35 mph, with the pedestrian 45 feet away and the driver braking at the same point, the car will be traveling at 18 mph when it hits the pedestrian. An impact at 18 mph can seriously injure or even kill the pedestrian.”

This is an interesting study, http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html, I take it you have read it since you agree as it quotes, “Most traffic engineers believe that speed limits should be posted to reflect the maximum speed considered to be safe and reasonable by the majority of drivers using the roadway under favorable conditions.” However, the data is driven from a study done “to examine driver behavior and accident effects of raising and lowering posted speed limits on nonlimited access rural and urban highways.” Which is not Admiral Way. In fact, many of the studies I could find that support your view concerned Highways and Freeways, not urban roadways.

AASHTO however, supports lower speed limits depending on the roadway design and multiple roadway users. Not just drivers. And you know what? They put the preponderance of responsibility on the DRIVER to comply with the stated rules of the roadway, including speed limits that may be lower than expected.

http://safety.transportation.org/htmlguides/speeding/section05.htm

“Ultimately, the goal toward which the objectives and strategies are directed is to improve safety for all road users by reducing the incidence of speeding and inappropriately high speeds. The strategies discussed in this section combine the elements of education, enforcement, and engineering. Strategies are suggested recognizing that, with few exceptions, programs that depend on only one of these elements are usually not as successful as those which incorporate a range of elements. Some strategies are aimed at general cultural and behavioral attributes of the driving public, while others are targeted at specific high-risk locations or portions of the population.”

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[JoB]

hooper1961

“This method is based on the principle that reasonable drivers will consider roadway and roadside conditions when selecting travel speeds.”

and there’s the rub. this might once have been true…

but drivers today seem to think it reasonable to be more concerned with their stereos, electronic equipment, schedules and meals than pedestrians and stray animals ..

if reasonable were the standard..

we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

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[Carson]

Hooper, I saw they had a motorcycle cop out there Tues afternoon, did you get a ticket? I mean, why else would you care? I love the info, I love numbers, but its a tiny stretch of road that leads to another more heavily populated part of the road where traffic is WAY too fast for safety. Your fight, while maybe a legit fight, seems to be an effort wasted. Can you instead get a few pedestrian crosswalks installed with your efforts?

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[Al]

Where is the link to the WA State Law that mandates a traffic study be done before speed is reduced on a city street?

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[hooper1961]

RCW 46.61.415

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[jellyfish]

Thanks, Hooper. You obviously know this issue and make a great argument for increasing the speed limit to 35. Safety decisions should always be made on well researched facts, not arbitrary opinions.

Personally, I feel that anyone with a smidgen of common sense intuitively knows that 30 is ridiculously slow for this particular road. But it’s apparent that others have come to a different gut conclusion. Thank goodness we have a more scientific approach in understanding issues that have public impact.

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[JoB]

has anyone not noticed that there is a bus stop on that stretch of road and that most of the people who would want to use it live on the other and that there is no cross walk.

i know.. let’s put a crosswalk there and a light that responds to pedestrians.. and one at the top too :))))))

the everyone’s happy. you can catch that extra minute or two buzzing down the hill and fewer people get hurt or killed…

WHAT??????

not on your agenda?

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[austin]

Posting in this thread more than twice takes more time than slowing down and driving safely.

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[sam-c]

thanks for the analysis hooper, it is interesting.

instead of adding my .02, I’d second the sentiments in posts 6 and 14.

my question is, do you drive on Admiral Way, in the area in question? cause I’m always careful to go the speed limit, 30 mph, but yet, EVERY ONE passes us*. often times, passed on the right, as we usually access this stretch (left lane) over by Luna Park.

we must not be on the road the same time as all of you.

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[hooper1961]

Traffic Engineers use a manual called the Uniform Traffic Control Devices. I stress the term uniform (consistency) that is critical to maintaining traffic safety. Failure to adhere to the tenets of this manual reduces safety.

The geometric profile of the SW Admiral Way s/o SW Olga St. to the West Seattle Bridge) is significantly superior to other City Arterial streets that are posted at 30 MPH (that is reasonable for the typical 2-lane Arterials).

Meaningful traffic control means that speed limits need to conform to national criteria. The posted limit on SW Admiral Way was 35 MPH for years prior to June 2006. This speed limit was appropriate, SAFE and efficient. In laymen’s terms if it isn’t broke don’t change it. The City failed to follow national guidelines, ignored State Law and the result is a less safe corridor (as shown in the before and after accident data).

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[Al]

Thanks for supplying RCW 46.61.415 which you referred to in your argument that the city violated state law in lowering the speed limit. Here’s what that RCW says in regards to “traffic investigations”:

“2) Local authorities in their respective jurisdictions shall determine by an engineering and traffic investigation the proper maximum speed for all arterial streets and shall declare a reasonable and safe maximum limit thereon which may be greater or less than the maximum speed permitted under RCW 46.61.400(2) but shall not exceed sixty miles per hour.”

Let’s look at permitted speeds stated in RCW 46.61.400(2):

“2) Except when a special hazard exists that requires lower speed for compliance with subsection (1) of this section, the limits specified in this section or established as hereinafter authorized shall be maximum lawful speeds, and no person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed in excess of such maximum limits.

(a) Twenty-five miles per hour on city and town streets;

(b) Fifty miles per hour on county roads;

(c) Sixty miles per hour on state highways…

…Saving of existing orders, etc., establishing speed limits — 1963 c 16: “This act shall not repeal or invalidate existing orders and resolutions of the state highway commission or existing resolutions and ordinances of local authorities establishing speed limits within their respective jurisdictions.” [1963 c 16 § 7. Formerly RCW 46.48.016.]”

Judging by this the posted speed limit of 30 is 5 mph over the state mandated set speed. If there was truly no “engineering and traffic investigation” (if you haven’t received a response from SDOT yet, keep after them and let us know what they say about this) then the speed limit should be set to 25 mph per state law, RCW46.61.400(2). Furthermore if there is already a local ordinance establishing speed limits then the local ordinance in effect over-rides the state RCW.

The Seattle Municipal Code, which has jurisdiction over the speed limits of the City is consistent with the speed limit set on Admiral:

“SMC 11.52.080 Thirty m.p.h. speed limits. Subject to Section 11.52.020, and except in those instances where a different maximum lawful speed is provided by this subtitle or otherwise, no

person shall operate any vehicle at a speed in excess of thirty (30) miles per hour on arterial streets.”

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[JoB]

here we go again…

the “because we can” crowd overlooks the primary question… should we?

i don’t know if anyone else has noticed.. but Mr traffic guy has not once mentioned the issue of pedestrian safety… just the increased incidence of traffic accidents.. attributed by him to a lowered speed limit…

When does a driver’s “right” to get someplace faster trump the “rights” of pedestrian safety?

One merely risks inconvenience..

the other risks life.

Where are our priorities as a community here?

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[Carson]

I suppose we all need a cause, some its parking on sidewalks, others its save the seals and others, well, its making the roads even more unsafe for pedestrians….I would vote for 25 long before 35 mph

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[Irukandji]

As of 09:30 this morning, enforcement is actively stopping speeders. Violators are regularly pulled into out neighborhood while being ticketed (and they stop in the NO PARKING zone). Many neighbors here (lots of dog owners) regularly stand on the corner and applaud the police and our thanks go out to them. Enjoy your sense of entitlement to speed and pay the fines when and if you get pulled over. Give a nod to the broken planters, the flowers left for the dead, and a quick wave to the pedestrians waiting to cross to catch a bus.

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[JoB]

Carson..

on that stretch of road.. i would vote for pedestrian controlled stop lights and crosswalks at both the top and bottom of the hill…

that would definately slow traffic down.. i bet that making it crystal clear that stretch of road is not a freeway onramp would cut traffic accidents significantly.

they shouldn’t be necessary…

if drivers were reasonable

but it seems they are.

btw..

i don’t think it was cool for the jeep to park on the sidewalk either and i suspect i didn’t say that…

i just would have chosen a different path to resolution:)

i am really into these community responsibility and community building things …

i suspect this is a natural side effect of getting older and needing a little help every now and then and not being spry enough any longer to get out of everyone else’s way ;-0

LOL… tho to be honest i have always been a community centered kind of girl… it’s the old communal hippy in me coming out again and again.

I think aging is the process of becoming the person you thought you were when you were 16:)

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[hooper1961]

Pedestrian safety is enhanced when the posted speed limit is more in line with reality. Someone noted that they drive the corridor at 30 MPH and are being passed all the time. How does this improve pedestrian safety? It doesn’t, because motorists get frustrated when people drive unreasonably slow. The prior 35 MPH limit was safer for all users because it generated more uniform traffic speeds. Pedestrian safety is enhanced when speed limits are appropriately set due to less chance of motorist frustration trying get around a slow moving vehicle and making bad decisions.

And yes I drive the corridor all the time as well as many other City streets. The 30 MPH limit on the subject section of SW Admiral Way is flat out erroneous, unreasonable and less safe for all users.

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[Author]

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