The First Amendment

[DP]

Here’s a story about American Muslims who agree with me that putting a mosque near GZ is insensitive:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100818/ap_on_re_us/us_ground_zero_mosque_us_muslims

From the article:

Abdul Cader Asmal, past president of the Islamic Council of New England, an umbrella group for more than 15 Islamic centers, said some opponents of the $100 million, 13-story project are indeed anti-Muslim. But he said many Americans have genuine, understandable questions about Islam and extremism.

In light of those fears, and the opposition of many relatives of 9/11 victims, Asmal said organizers should dramatically scale back the project to just a simple mosque, despite their legal right to construct what they want.

“Winning in the court of law is not going to help improve the image of Muslims nationwide,” said Asmal, a Massachusetts physician. “You have to win the hearts and minds of the ordinary American people.”

I expect to someone to respond with the pithy observation that the Associated Press and its mouthpiece, Yahoo! News, are both notorious right-wing operations . . .

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[DP]

DHG:

There is no “giant US military base within 20 miles from Hiroshima.” What the heck are you talking about?

There is a large US base at Okinawa much farther south, but it’s not trying to make a statement about the benefits of nuclear power as far as I can tell.

But thank you for bring this up anyway, because Okinawa is an excellent example of the point I’m making.

The U.S. military base at Okinawa has, in fact, been a tremendous source of irritation for the Okinawans, and for Japanese in general. To them, it’s an insult to national honor, and as a result there have been large and continued protests against it. The issue of the base at Okinawawa even cost that Japanese P.M. his job.

As far as a Shinto shrine near the Pearl Harbor Memorial, I don’t know anything about that. I’m guessing that it’s either not that close, it pre-dated 12/7/41, or that it was erected with the blessing of the American survivors of the Pearl Harbor attack.

A mosque near GZ would be a great thing too, if that’s really what New Yorkers wanted. Maybe they will want that in another 50 years or so.

But right now? It’s dicey. Very dicey.

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[JoB]

DP..

it isn’t a mosque.

it’s a community center

with a prayer space on the top two levels…

it isn’t next to ground zero

in fact.. it’s a four block walk from the memorial

in an area few visitors to the memorial visit..

but hey..

why get bogged down with actual facts here

when there is an invented controversy you can fuel?

For a peace loving guy…

you pass along a lot of hate mongering rhetoric

and make a lot of inflammatory comments.

while exhorting the rest of us to play nice…

Your comments are a real mystery..

Do they originate with naivety

or are they the result of careful orchestration?

who knows.

Like i said once..

i think there is more to your comments

and political position

than meets the eye.

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[dobro]

Here’s an article from Salon.com with a timeline of events leading up to this fake controversy. You can see (if you read it) it’s pretty much a one-woman show with right wing fruitcake Pam Gellar leading the way, New York Post and RW echo chamber following up and MSM lapping up every bit of the hate/fear distraction. I made a tiny URL again cuz it was long…

http://tinyurl.com/2ejzp39

the whole fake issue pretty much comes down to

“do you believe in the Bill of rights or not and, if not, why do you hate America?”

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[DP]

JoB, I’m having trouble matching up what you’re saying with what I’m saying . . .

My main point is that good people are going to be hurt by this mosque, “prayer room,” or whatever you want to call it. (There’s also going to be a 9/11 memorial there by the way which, ironically, may be part of the problem.)

You, like dobro, seem to believe that everyone who feels the way I do on this issue is in on some kind of conspiracy . . . But why don’t you address the AP article I linked or the comments that the American Muslim guy made?

I’ll give you a tip on how to argue your position, on this or any other topic. And I mean this in the most sincere way, because I want to continue having interesting debates with you:

1. Avoid using terms like “hate mongering,” “inflammatory comments,” “invented controversy,” “careful orchestration,” etc.
2. Don’t spend a lot of time talking about your opponent’s motiviation.
3. Try to discern as soon as possible whether it’s facts you and your opponent disagree on, or rather interpretation of the facts.
4. If it’s facts you disagree on, go out and get better, or more credible, facts than your opponent has. Establish the credibility of your sources as quickly and strongly as you can. Don’t try to discredit your opponent’s facts or sources until you’ve already established some of your own, and then try to discredit your opponent’s facts —only as a last resort.
5. If it’s interpretation of the facts that you disagree on, argue accordingly, but try to keep an open mind throughout, because interpretation of fact is much more variable than questions of accuracy or relevance.
6. Use sarcasm and hyperbole sparingly, and only for effect.

Example of how you should be making your case on this:

It’s a prayer room, not a mosque, David. It’s part of a much larger commercial project. It’s only going to be X x Y square feet. It’s not going to have a dome. It’s not going to be visible from GZ, etc. This is information New Yorkers aren’t aware of.

You know, I think people are getting bent out of shape over this. Some people [not you, David] are using this to bash Muslims, and that worries me a little.

Example of how you should not be making your case:

What’s your game, DP? What’s wrong with you? Don’t you understand the facts of this case?

I’m open to having my mind changed on this, JoB. In fact, I almost had myself convinced of the other side for a second there . . . But you’re going to have to come up with something better than “you’re part of a conspiracy” to make that happen.

So go ahead and be tough on my arguments.

Just watch what you say about my chupacabra.

—David

 

 

P.S. dobro Can you include an excerpt from your salon.com piece? You don’t have to put it in a blockquote box; just wrap it with quotation marks, so we’ll know it’s a quotation. Anyway, pick one fact or quote that you think is really valuable, and if it seems intrigueing, I’ll drop in and check it out. The thing about “hating the Bill of Rights” is clever, but it’s only going to work for people who are already on that side of the fence. Thanks.

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[JanS]

oh, good grief…let’s not lecture, OK? Between GZ, and the location of this “mosque”, that everyone says is going to be disrespectful, there are porn shops, head shops, strip joints. Is that respectful of the area? Does anyone bring that up? Has anyone petitioned to tell these people that they can’t have what they want there? Of course not. It’s just this “mosque”, because it’s being done by Muslims…and we all know they’re just terrorists in disguise, don’t we?;-> You all can sit here and “discuss” “debate”, however much you want. But the truth is we all know why so many people are jumping on this particular thing. Everyone dances around it, tries to make nice..”I have nothing against freedom of religion …BUT.” If you support the 1st amendment and freedom of/from religion, then there are no BUTS…PERIOD. If there is, then you’re lying to yourself..and those of us who you’re saying it to. Plain and simple.

And…DP…show me exactly in JoB’s remarks where she says outright “you’re part of the conspiracy”. Am I just not reading careful enough?

Or is that meant to get a reaction, in other words, inflame? I won’t tell you how to present your side if you’ll refrain from doing the same with others. It’s condescending, to say the least.

Apologies for sounding cranky…guess I am a little cranky this week.

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[JoB]

DP..

it’s not a mosque

it’s not next to ground zero

there is nothing disrespectful about a community center.

what part of that is difficult for you to understand?

yes, muslims are worried that inflamed anti-muslim sentiment will spill over onto their local mosques..

they have reason to worry.

some idiot tried to blow up a mosque during prayer with 60 people inside recently.

He failed because he was too stupid to place the bomb inside.

but there are plenty of idiots being inflammed by made up controversys like this one..

so that probably won’t be the last attempt…

and maybe one of them is smart enough to rectify his buddy’s mistake.

It’s not Americans who have to worry about terrorism from local muslims..

but local muslims who have to worry about terrorism from good ole Americans :(

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[dobro]

“My main point is that good people are going to be hurt by this mosque, “prayer room,” or whatever you want to call it.”

This “point” is irrelevant. Ask yourself this question. Would there be any problem with a Catholic church opening on the Park 51 site? A synagogue? A Presbyterian chapel? In America we have a thing called freedom of religion that applies to everyone, even if someone gets their fee-fees hurt. If you believe in the Bill of Rights you’d think that was a good thing. Some people would call it a founding principle of our country. Those who serve in public office swear to defend these principles. The oath doesn’t say “I swear to uphold and defend the Constitution, so help me God, unless, of course, someone might get their feelings hurt.”

“You, like dobro, seem to believe that everyone who feels the way I do on this issue is in on some kind of conspiracy.”

I’d be curious to know what I said that insinuated anything of the sort. I pointed out how attention was pointed at this subject and turned into a media circus and cited and described an article that explains how that happened. the article is 981 words long. It’s not War and Peace. If a person actually had any interest in the issue there’s a link right there. Ahhh, but here I am again asking people to read something…I should know better. :)

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[JoB]

i heard Howard Dean has voiced his opinion

against the community center :(

How quickly we forget that the way we got where we are now is by giving idiots credence by accepting their made up issues as real.

any respect i had for him is gone.

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[JanS]

I listened to an interview last night that he gave to Keith Olberman. He sounded like an idiot. He had no point. His argument for his stance was disjointed. Makes one want to scream at them. He suggested that there be a “sit down” to discuss the issue in a “peaceful” manner, and maybe come up with a compromise, but kept saying that they have every right to build there. When pushed to expand what he meant by “compromise”, he had no real answer. That’s because there is none. How far away is far enough away? In stead of two blocks from GZ, should it be 4? There’s already one there at 4 blocks…so should it be 6? 3 inches? What? Who is doing the compromising..certainly not those who object. Again, it all boils down to one thing…the only reason this is an issue is because they are Muslim, and too many people believe that Muslim= terrorist. It’s prejudice, plain and simple.

This dilapidated property sat there for 8 years for sale. No one wanted it, no one wanted to develop it. It is derelict, has fallen into disrepair. Is that respectful to the area? People didn’t care about that. There was no groundswell of protesters saying that letting the area 2 blocks from GZ rot is disrespectful. Enter in the dastardly Muslims who decided to take this derelict building, build a cultural center, with gym, cooking school, a prayer room. Oh, my, no, we can’t have that. Tell me this isn’t about prejudice. Give me a good argument why this is an issue all of a sudden that has nothing to do with these people being Muslim. I’ll listen.

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[JoB]

Jan..

it’s disappointing isn’t it

monkey see

monkey do

and the dems let right wing nutcases make monkeys of us

it’s enough to make you swear off politics…

i would.. but the nutjobs win if we do :(

i swear some days i don’t know what a girl’s to do :(

happy hour?

if only i could still drink:(

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[KBear]

The bigots among us make us all perfect targets for terrorists. They’re playing right into their hands.

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[JoB]

kbear..

yes.. they are.

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[dobro]

“Tell me this isn’t about prejudice. Give me a good argument why this is an issue all of a sudden that has nothing to do with these people being Muslim. I’ll listen.”

There aren’t any such arguments. Certainly none have been presented here and in the things I’ve read and listened to I see nothing that isn’t about prejudice, hate, and fear. The thing we’re seeing mostly is craven cowardice on the part of many commentators (it is sad to hear Howard Dean buy into the baloney) and lots of denial from those repeating the list of fake arguments of their own prejudice.

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[Ken]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-19-2010/extremist-makeover—homeland-edition

Fox news is a terrorist command center. :)

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[Annie]

One thing I haven’t heard in all this debate is the question I heard so often in the early months/years after 9/11 – “Why haven’t the peaceful muslins stepped up and denounced the terrorists or why have they not worked in their communities to do good, show the other side of their religion.” It seems like this community center could be just that, providing a place in an area needing development for community activities – a basketball court, a cooking school are what I’ve heard – as well as meetings, classes, etc. What happened to that idea?

I’m reading a book now called “The Faith Club” about 3 women, a Muslim, a Christian, and a Jew, who met regularly after 9/11 to understand each other’s faith. It’s not so much a religious story as a human story. Listening and understanding each other is more healing than drawing lines and making prohibitions.

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[DP]

dobro: Here’s what you said that makes me think that you think the mosque brouhaha is a conspiracy:

You can see . . . [that opposition to the mosque is] pretty much a one-woman show with right wing fruitcake Pam Gellar leading the way

I take this to mean you think that the opposition to the mosque/prayer room was originally incited by a single person and is being propagated by a small group of people. Hence: a conspiracy. Did I misread you on that?

But anyway, you know what? You could be right: it could be just a “one-woman show.” I haven’t been to New York lately or talked with many New Yorkers about this, so I don’t really know whether they’re really feeling angry about this or not. But then, neither do you. —Unless you’ve been talking with a bunch of them. (Have you?)

The Salon.com piece had some good information on Pam Gellar’s blog. That should be taken into consideration. Because the right wing is the “out” party right now, they’re particularly keen on starting trouble. However, it’s also possible (I think probable, actually) that Gellar and others are merely trying to ride the wave of anger that was already building over this.

We’ll see.

 

Annie: Hi!!

You make a good point.

It’s ironic that the leader of this project (Mr. Rauf) has been one of the folks who has really tried to speak out against Muslim extremism. If he was willing to use some part of his building to host a safe and open-ended debate about the role of Islam in the modern world, then I would welcome that. In that case, I would switch over to a pro-mosque position. However, I suspect that Mr. Rauf is not willing to play host to such a debate.

You see, part of Mr. Rauf’s message is that Islam is a religion of peace and only peace. But I suspect that’s not how a lot of New Yorkers view it, because that’s contrary to their experience. In fact, many New Yorkers may take this whole “Islam = Peace” message as a slap in their faces, even though that was obviously NOT Mr. Rauf’s intention.

Islam, like Christianity, means many things to many people. Any Muslim can say what Islam means to himself or herself, and no one can reasonably contradict that. But for a Muslim (or anybody else) to say what Islam should mean to me (or the people of New York) is really stretching it.

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[JoB]

Annie..

yours is the voice of reason..

such an obvious answer..

it could be a place of healing.

thank you

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[Garden_nymph]

DP, dhg is correct per the info I found on

http://www.jca.apc.org/wsf_support/2004doc/WSFJapUSBaseRepoFinalAll.html#U.S._Military_Presence

There are US military bases near Hiroshima AND Nagasaki!

…”There are approximately 90 U.S. military facilities including major military bases throughout mainland Japan and Okinawa, with an area total of 3,130,000 sq.meters, 75% of which are in Okinawa. They are concentrated in a few areas (prefectures), 37 in Okinawa, 15 in Kanagawa, 11 in Nagasaki, and 7 in Tokyo. About 52,000 U.S. troops are stationed in these bases, 26,000 in mailand and 25,000 in Okinawa (2001). In mainland Japan, the largest contingent is the air force with 6,600 and that in Okinawa marines (15,500)… There is Iwakuni Marine Base near Hiroshima, and Sasebo Naval Base in Nagasaki Prefecture.”

http://www.marines.mil/unit/mcasiwakuni/Pages

/history.aspx

http://www.nffsp.org/SASEBO/

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[Annie]

DP, how do we know that Mr. Rauf would not be willing to host such a debate/conversation? It seems it would fit in with what I understand to be a purpose of the community center. I do suspect that the matter of keeping it “safe” could be problematic however.

Also, I think that one difference between Islam and Christianity (Judaism, too? I don’t know) is that in most Western religions there is one particular “head” that presides over matters of dogma or belief. The Catholic Church has it’s Pope, for instance. As I understand Islam, there are Imams in different geographical areas and they have that role locally. So Islam could be different depending on interpretations by different Imams in different locations. So to Mr. Rauf it may truly be about peace, though I don’t know of any religion that preaches “only” peace. Do you? Quakers maybe? Amish?

As for “many” New Yorkers who “may” take the idea of a peaceful Muslim message as a slap in the face, while understandably being hurt and angry, that reaction continues to polarize and is not helpful to a process of knowledge, understanding and healing.

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[DP]

Garden_nymph: Thanks for the info.

I just read the Wiki article on the Iwakuni base. At 6,000 personnel (including family members), it’s not exactly what I’d call a “giant base” which is what dhg said. But maybe that’s quibbling . . .

Here’s something else interesting from the Wiki article on this base:

It was revealed in 2010 that in 1966 nuclear weapons were moved to the base for storage from Okinawa. When U.S. ambassador to Japan Edwin O. Reischauer learned of the presence of the weapons, which was a violation of the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan, he told the United States Department of State that if the weapons were not removed within 90 days he would resign and go public with the information. The weapons were removed shortly thereafter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Air_Station_Iwakuni

—the point being that Japanese people are very sensitive about having nuclear weapons anywhere on their territory, which is understandable.

Accordingly (and also because of US treaty obligations) Ambassador Reischauer demanded that the nukes be removed from Irakuni, which they promptly were.

I think there is a loose parallel with the NY mosque/prayer room here. I’m not equating a mosque or Islam with nuclear weapons. I’m equating the sensitivities of New Yorkers (logical or otherwise) with the sensitivities of Japanese.

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[DP]

Annie: Thank you for your most excellent comments!

You are quite right that I do not know that Mr. Rauf would be against having such a debate on his property. Oh, how I wish we could ask him right now!

I believe that to Mr. Rauf, Islam really does mean peace. And to the extent that he’s trying to win over all Muslims to the side of peace, I am definitely with him. In the meantime, I think he, and others, can help move us forward by acknowledging that, to many people around the world, including many Muslims, Islam does not mean peace. At least, not for the time being . . .

I’m not sure I understand what you mean when you say that someone’s reaction of being hurt or angry, while understandable, is “polarizing.” Feelings are what they are; they are neither right nor wrong. However, what I hear some pro-mosque folks (not you) saying is that people who feel hurt by the mosque proposal are somehow wrong for feeling hurt—or wrong for voicing their opinion that they don’t want a mosque this close to GZ.

For me, that’s the nub of this matter. If I heard people acknowledging that this might just be about something other than the Bill of Rights, or about Muslim bashing, I’d feel better.

In any case, I’m glad to see someone recognizing that there are nuances to this issue. You are like a breath of fresh air.

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[Garden_nymph]

DP, I just thought you would appreciate being informed about the Japanese Cultural Center that IS located 10.5 miles from the USS Arizona Memorial on Oahu. http://www.hawaiiweb.com/oahu/sites_to_see/japanese_cultural_center.htm

The Address for the USS Arizona Memorial is,

USS Arizona Memorial

1 Arizona Memorial Road

Honolulu, HI 96818-3103

How many years will it take to move on in a peaceful manner? It sounds to me like a community center, any COMMUNITY center in a derelict area full of strip bars and porn shops would be welcomed. It is sad to me that this attempted blocking of the Mosque is tolerated in America, a country FOUNDED on religious freedom as a tenant of our Constitution! How many US service men and women have lost their lives protecting our rights and THIS is how we honor them?! My heart aches for those who have had to deal with retaliation due to ignorance regarding Muslims. Remember when a Sikh taxi driver was attacked after 9/11? He wasn’t MUSLIM! What about the Muslim woman here in West Seattle that had her dress cut shorter! My friend’s brother was the Muslim man who was almost shot at the Northgate Mosque on 9/11. The only reason he wasn’t killed was the perp’s gun jammed. He was praying for peace,as many of us were. When will people learn Muslim doesn’t equal Terrorist, but Intolerance = Hate!? Aren’t we better than this? For our collective sakes, I certainly hope so!

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[dobro]

“I take this to mean you think that the opposition to the mosque/prayer room was originally incited by a single person and is being propagated by a small group of people. Hence: a conspiracy. Did I misread you on that?”

According to the article I cited, Pam Gellar’s organization Stop Islamization of America (SIOA) sponsored and organized the first protest of the prayer center after it had been publicly announced, approved by the powers that be for zoning and necessary permitting with no public opposition. Some people are in the business of stirring up things to promote their own interests (ie Ann Coulter, Dick Armey, etc), I think she may be one of those. I don’t see it as a conspiracy and never said so because this type of action doesn’t require a group of people to sit in a room and conspire. There’s an entire Right Wing echo chamber that takes stuff like this and runs with it, puts freaks like Gellar on TV and radio to spew their hate and lies, and projects it into the MSM, creating fake controversy which translates into ratings and money. It’s really all about money when you come down to it.

“However, it’s also possible (I think probable, actually) that Gellar and others are merely trying to ride the wave of anger that was already building over this.”

This is conjecture on your part that doesn’t jibe with the facts presented in the article.

“However, what I hear some pro-mosque folks (not you) saying is that people who feel hurt by the mosque proposal are somehow wrong for feeling hurt—or wrong for voicing their opinion that they don’t want a mosque this close to GZ.”

As you stated earlier in your post, feelings are neither right nor wrong and folks can feel anyway they want. What IS wrong with a capital W is compromising constitutional rights because somebody doesn’t like it if you exercise them. If its ok for Catholics, Jews, and Buddhists to have religious centers in that neighborhood then its ok for Muslims to do it too and if you are asking them to voluntarily give up their rights because someone’s feelings might be hurt then what you’re asking is un-american. Rights are not to be put up to a vote and apply equally to all.

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[Annie]

DP, I think I was reacting to the words, “slap in the face” as being polarizing. No one is wrong for the feelings they have, but people do have the responsibility for any actions they take in response to those feelings. Interpreting the building of a Muslim center as a “slap in the face” is not the only interpretation possible to anyone and those that feel strongly need to consider other possibilities. For instance that the owner of the property was not intending insult or demean or slap anyone. If Mr Rauf was indeed intending a “slap in the face” to New Yorkers, survivors, Christians, whoever, and and they “slapped back,” which you can argue they did, how is that moving the conversation forward? That is where I see polarization. Surely we were “slapped in the face” on 9/11 and we slapped back, hard. Has that made life better for us or for the Iraqis, who had nothing to do with it?

Also, why is it up to the Muslims to prove anything to those who insult them? It was not a religion who attacked us, but men who made a mockery of their religion. Maybe the fact that they were all (almost) Saudi’s had more to do with it than their religion. Just thinkin. . .and that popped into my head.

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