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February 28, 2011 at 4:44 am #687104
jamminjMemberAre you sick of highly paid teachers?
Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do – babysit!
We can get that for less than minimum wage.
That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan– that equals 6 1/2 hours).
Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.
However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.
LET’S SEE….
That’s $585 X 180= $105,300
per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).
What about those special
education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an
hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.
Wait a minute — there’s
something wrong here! There sure is!
The average teacher’s salary
(nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days
= $277.77/per day/30
students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!
Make a teacher smile; repost this to show appreciation for all educators.
Update: I’m glad that many people have shown their support for teachers by reposting this note, but I am not the original author. I received this as an anonymous chain letter email, and I wanted to share it to support the public workers of Wisconsin.
February 28, 2011 at 5:02 am #687105
lucky chickMemberPlease don’t feed the trolls :)
February 28, 2011 at 5:09 am #687106
RarelyEverParticipantso, from the foreigner’s perspective.. again.. aplologies to those of you who’ve had it with the in-my-country-this-is-how-we-do-it stuff *grins sheepishly*.. BUT –
i don’t know enough about this country’s history to know the answer to this, but – why don’t teachers make way more money here? honest question, not trying to be mean. where i grew up having a son or daughter who became a teacher (grammar school, high school & university levels) was comparable to having a doctor or lawyer in the family; being a teacher is considered very prestigious. you make a lot of money and get the summers off.
i don’t know why it is so different here.. can someone explain this?
February 28, 2011 at 5:24 am #687107
JoBParticipantrarelyever..
because here teachers were traditionally women who didn’t “need” an income to support their families…
or at least that’s the story…
and literally true until fairly recently…
like.. in my lifetime..
since teachers couldn’t be married and have kids and still teach:(
February 28, 2011 at 5:28 am #687108
F16CrewChiefMemberPlease excuse my ignorance here, but what does a teachers union have to do with an education bond or levy? I ask this question to the original post.
As for homework, I have two kids in Madison and one in Gatewood and all three have homework every night. They do some of the coolest projects too. I don’t know, I’m missing something here in this post. I think our underpaid and under-equipt teachers are doing a fantastic job in a horribly run school district. The union is not the problem, its the admin that’s the problem in my opinion.
February 28, 2011 at 5:37 am #687109
JanSParticipantjamminj, thanks for that. I’m betting that a lot of commenters won’t read the whole thing. They’ll just think it’s another statistic, and think it boring. It’s enlightening.
Defund public schools? That’s crazy. And, no, not all private, religious run schools are superior. I know, I had my child in both.She’s grown now, but I will relate that the worst of her school years was one spent in a private Christian school that I paid for. Teaching about witches, and satan, and scaring second graders. The teacher even brought up abortion in class – to kids in second grade! Of course, then my child comes home and wants answers from me..mom, what’s an abortion. Mom, how do you get pregnant? Second grade, for goodness sake.
And therein lies a problem with me. None of that is appropriate in the class room, IMHO. It’s indoctrination of the worst kind, and undermines parents, parents’ values, and what is appropriate for parents to discuss with their kids, not the teacher.
February 28, 2011 at 5:39 am #687110
JoBParticipantF16CrewChief…
Psst… don’t cloud the issue with actual facts…
localman and Markangelo have a not so hidden agenda…
to privatize education so they can indoctrinate our children at our expense…
LOL..
they missed a few not so small stats..
what plays well in the hinterland doesn’t play so well in the big city where education is actually valued..
as in.. it’s difficult to deceive educated people with fuzzy not so logic ;->
February 28, 2011 at 5:55 am #687111
redblackParticipantlucky chick: yeah, the whole problem with ignoring them is that there are a bunch of people in this country who believe that drivel. the kind of mentality that says that it’s okay to attack other working-class members of our society (out of jealousy or whatever) can’t go unchallenged.
ever.
February 28, 2011 at 2:39 pm #687112
lucky chickMemberIndeed, Redblack. It gets exhausting. Thanks for taking it on here.
February 28, 2011 at 3:10 pm #687113
TDeParticipantI think professional sports players should be required to return 10% of their salaries to their state education systems, just to say “thanks” to all the teachers who got them through the education system, to the jobs that now pay them so very well. They only work a few months a year too, by the way and the really big sports teams often enjoy taxpayer support on the fancy new stadiums we all chip in to build.
February 28, 2011 at 3:46 pm #687114
JoBParticipantTde.. excellent point…
***
and BTW.. those union bashers on Faux..
O’Reilly, Hannity, Beck…
all union guys…
how is that for irony…
it’s high time people who believe that drivel use some of the education they received at taxpayer expense to scratch below the surface.
February 28, 2011 at 4:51 pm #687115
dhgParticipantMarkAngello: Member since 2/24; location: Chicago. Interests: religous freedom, freedom of speech, proselytism.
We should also add: Hobbies: Trolling, watching Faux News, avoiding reading newspapers (or anything as difficult as the NY Times).
February 28, 2011 at 5:01 pm #687116
datamuseParticipantHmm…I work for a private, religiously affiliated educational institution…and I still have employer-subsidized health care…what was the point, again?
Maybe it’s because I’m a librarian, not a teacher. Hmm.
Somewhat pertinently, I read this this morning. Yeah, it’s Daily Kos, but read it anyway. Want to get rid of teachers? Just make the working conditions more and more difficult until they can’t do the job anymore. That should work out well.
February 28, 2011 at 5:11 pm #687117
redblackParticipantthanks for the link, dm. that’s pretty sad.
then again, i don’t know how parents are supposed to buy x-boxes and games, smart phones with plenty of air time, and computers with cable internet connections (aka facebook machines) for their kids if they have to pay all of these stupid taxes – just so some overpaid, lazy, lowly civil servant can have a job.
(i know everyone’s on edge, but i was being sardonic, people.)
February 28, 2011 at 7:05 pm #687118
MarkAngelloMemberhttp://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/28/us-wisconsin-governor-idUSTRE71R51620110228
Dems and union freeloaders want to cost Wisconsin taxpayers… $165 million!
Another good reason to vote for anyone but a democrat.
February 28, 2011 at 7:12 pm #687119
lucky chickMemberWhy do conservatives need to try to dumb everything down so much? “Union freeloaders!!!” “cost taxpayers $165mill!!!” “Death panels!!!” “Job-killing health care bill!!!” It’s demeaning to have to respond to such outrageous, simple-minded hyperbole, but there exist in the drooling masses out there many, many people who parrot what they hear and don’t bother to look at the issues beyond the surface. What a waste of time when we could be working on really educating the American public and looking to solve the problems.
February 28, 2011 at 7:38 pm #687120
JoBParticipantMarkAngelo…
Am i missing something here?
The governor of Wisconsin..
who should have been thinking of the welfare of his state all along
instead of pursuing a private agenda to benefit the Koch brothers..
can easily make sure his state meets the deadline to refinance…
all he has to do is encourage state republicans to pull his union busting measure.
He started this fight..
Don’t you think it is his responsibility to end it?
blaming it on the other guys doesn’t work here either…
but you keep trying…. i really admire effort.. even misplaced effort.
February 28, 2011 at 8:32 pm #687121
redblackParticipantjo: republican presidents and both parties in congress ran up chronically large deficits and debts for 30 years and have nothing to show for it.
the republican response while all of that money was trickling up and out?
[crickets chirping]
then a democrat gets elected and does the exact same thing (only within our borders) and suddenly it’s “oh noes!! socialism!! starve the beast!! we can’t pay for health care for unions!! that don’t make no jobses!!” as if all of those tax breaks created one damned job in this country in 30 years.
okay, i’ll grudgingly concede that a lot of lobbyists suddenly found work.
stunning.
February 28, 2011 at 8:42 pm #687122
JoBParticipantFebruary 28, 2011 at 11:51 pm #687123
dawsonctParticipantWhat do you have against democracy and the American people Mark?
Beats the hell out of the NewRepublican wet-dream of a kleptoligopoly, where only the already rich and powerful are free to enjoy the liberties our Founders bequeathed us.
Even if you DO hit the PowerBall someday, they aren’t going to let you (or Scot Walker, for that matter) into their very private, tightly controlled club.
You are, however, of use to them as one of their pawns.
March 7, 2011 at 4:11 pm #687124
CaduceusMemberI have not read every post, and perhaps my questions are already answered, I apologize for this.
I have recently been in public school system here in Seattle. Now I know very little of politics, or unions. I have no claim for wisdom in these subjects and I am not claiming to have such.
However there is a substantial problem. Well I guess technically speaking there are numerous problems that feed off of eachother.
I’m gearing toward tweny-one years of age, and I exited the public school system in my sophomore year of highschool in favor of local community college. I have never had any issue with any class. I have never scored less than an A on a test in my entire life. I have never scored anything short of exemplary on the WASL, yet I have failed numerous classes due to absences. That I will not get into specifics as it’s irrelevant; I will note that the reasons for the absences were not for delinquent purposes, quite the opposite in fact. But I did show up on every test day.
I can not recall any piece of homework where I learned something I didn’t learn form reviewing a textbook, that was common sense or that wasn’t already covered in class (again pointing out I was hardly at a lot of these classes). An in-class it was not at all rare to spend weeks if not MONTHS on a single benign topic. In 8th grade for example at Madison Middle School we spent well over a month and a half on positive and negative integers. Which is disgustingly easy to understand. In order to figure them mathematically you only need to know a handful of rules.
In this environment with kids who do not take their education seriously, their disinterest grows ten-fold. They know what they’re learning is easy; you do not need a high IQ to understand the numberline goes forwards and backwards. And in a way I think they resent that so much time is spent on such sophomoric things and I know from personally speaking with these people that they feel insulted and as a defense they think of school as a joke; so easy why bother trying?
I scored amazingly on the entry test at a local community college and was put into a trig review class for my math credit. I was totally knocked on my ass. We spent at tops, two days on a section in the book, and would spend a half-hour of a day reviewing what we learned that week. Keep in mind a section of a mathetics text book covers multiple things, and is broken into parts; we’d spend two days on what is actually 5-6 topics. I was grossly unprepared because I was never put in good habits. I managed a C with tutoring, barely. I loved that I was learning something; that I wasn’t a child sitting with other children but I was a student paying money to be there and was treated as such. On the flip-side of that coin I was grossly dissapointed that I was so unprepared and underachieved so vastly.
At public school it feels like you’re required to go to class simply because no one wants to do anything with you and you have to be somewhere, and no one wants us hoodlums running the streets! But the focus isn’t on teaching, it’s about giving you something to do. Not to challenge you. Not to educate you. Not to prepare you for the world. Just so you’re not running around shooting eachother and consuming narcotics.
Now there are variables involved. Individual students, teachers, schools as a whole, communities etc. I acknowledge this and I am not pointing a blaming finger at any one thing in particular.
My girlfriend was at a catholic school, a rather expensive one. And the most popular and highly respected people (by students and staff)at her school would have been miserable at any public school. At every public school I’ve ever attended (from here, to Montana to New York) reading is “gay”, “stupid”, “pointless”. Over-achieving or achieving at all is negative. “You study? Clearly you’re a faggot.” “You did the homework? Can I copy it?” That is the attitude young people have developed. And a lot of parents from my experience don’t take this attitude seriously. “My kids are not like this.” Yes, they probably are. I have never experienced such a gap in communication as I have with parents and children at public schools. The only group of parents I can think of that had a vested interest and a “no bull-sh*t” stance towards their children’s education were immigrant parents. Funny enough they were also the only consolidated group of parents that did NOT have the “my children’s sh*t doesn’t smell” syndrome, and their children tended to succeed. Tended to get scholarships and go off to research schools where they also shone and didn’t miss a beat. Even though they were suddenly thrust in a fast-paced environment where 1on1 time with the professor might as well be unheard of and they could only rely on themselves.
This was not at all present at my girlfriends school. Sure there were the delinquents. I remember a guy we knew got caught with the last of a joint in his pocket. He was instantly expelled permanently. I know kids from WSHS who have been caught in the act of selling narcotics from prescription pills to cocaine and were suspended for a week. And they were praised upon their return. For what reason I’m still not sure. But the worst scrutiny felt at this particular school as a junior/senior is elitism based on what college you plan on attending or are able to get into. Sure the rich kids would play the “I have this new high-fashion dress and you don’t, and my skin is more orange then yours” card but it was pale in comparison to the college selection process. I can’t remember a single person at any public school even mentioning they wanted to go to college. Ever. Keep this in mind as you read.
If you were to give anyone from a public school “The Brothers Karamazov”, “The Man and the Sea”, “The Alchemist”. They would just stare at the first page blankly and then put the book down to go play xbox. And then plagiarize a “book report” from sparknotes later. Probably from their smart phone at the beginning of class.
In fact the last three English teachers I had at West Seattle Highschool weren’t even qualified to teach English. Two of them had backgrounds in history and the other was a gym teacher. And asked me “What is ‘A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man’ about?” As I was reading it before class.
Again I don’t know anything about funding or lobbies or unions. But even in this ignorance I think the problem goes far deeper than something so shallow as adults playing politics.
Regardless of this does anyone have the time to explain, or give links to these funding/lobby/union issues? I have to admit, my curiosity is perked.
But there is a enormously startling gap between public and private schools.
Maybe it’s the parents. Maybe it’s the responsibility that private school is so amazingly expensive. Maybe it’s because public schools cater to the lowest common denominator. Maybe it’s funding. Maybe it’s the unions. I do not know the answer but I wager it’s a combination, a toxic, awful combination that is setting thousands of kids up for failure. Kids who don’t know better or aren’t clever enough to circumvent “the system”.
And I don’t think politicians are going to close the gap for us.
I rambled a bit. I apologize, sorry if this is disjointed and hard to read!
March 7, 2011 at 4:30 pm #687125
JoBParticipantCaduceus…
there are two studies i think you would find interesting.
they are not funding/lobby/union issues per se but still …. i think you will find relevant to your questions about public education..
the first looks at the connection between a mother’s education and individual academic performance. They concluded that the disparity in performance could be measured by the time a child was 3 and that disparity did not essentially change regardless of childhood learning programs instituted later.
the second looks at poverty… the number one indicator of school performance..
I apologize for not looking them up for you this morning… but i suspect you have both the ability and intention to find them.
another group of papers you may find interesting look at the lack of connection between testing and student outcome measures in .. i think.. sweden… the top performing school system in the world.
they rely on student interest…
last…and i wish i remembered exactly where i saw this… there is an open letter from a teacher contemplating retirement that is illuminating.
If i remember correctly… i posted it in one of the teacher related threads here.
March 7, 2011 at 4:53 pm #687126
CaduceusMemberI am not sure if I found the article(s) you were referring to about the mother-child discrpency but I did come across this PDF, which is proving to be enlightening from skimming the first three chapters. http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/parenting-and-educational-achievement.pdf
I have a small idea of how poverty affects a school thanks to ‘Waiting for Superman’. A rather fantastic (however biased) documentary on such a subject in Washington DC. I will continue to research this however; perhaps I’ll be the one to discover the answer. Who knows? :P
I came across this, read the whole thing.
http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/parenting-and-educational-achievement.pdf
Not sure if it’s what you were speaking of but what I have concluded based on what was presented, along with the knowledge that Sweden has outstanding educational performance is that school for them may be a chore, but a necessary one. They didn’t take the tests seriously, but clearly they are passing. Unlike here, where no one cares and fails miserably. They were not anxious perhaps because they were confident in their ability to do well. While people here aren’t anxious because perhaps school in it’s entirety isn’t that serious, and they don’t think of the consequences. Or perhaps the motivation to succeed is absent entirely from the majority (here)? I am afraid I cannot speculate beyond this as the study does not provide enough information; nor would I be able to speak for tens of thousands of young people.
Still searching for the retirement letter. Thank you JoB I’m glad WSB still has some helpful folk around.
March 7, 2011 at 5:20 pm #687127
JoBParticipantCaduseus…
thank you for the link..
i have only skimmed it but even a short skim shows it’s value. i will go back later to dig deeper.
obviously, this isn’t the work i was referring to… but that’s the fun of searches… you don’t always bump into what you expected to find.
it’s one of the benefits of sharing…
the other is that reading the same material doesn’t guarantee the same take away points :)
what i took away from the studies on the swedish school system was that if you concentrate on learning… and everyone learns more if they find the material interesting…. test scores follow.
March 7, 2011 at 5:35 pm #687128
JoBParticipantCaduseus…
you did say something else that i have been pondering for some time.
You mentioned that the will to succeed may not be present..
I am now watching grandchildren.. bright grandchildren from educated successful parents… work their way through the school system and have been frustrated by both their attitudes and what i see as their lack of commitment.
I have come to some conclusions that i share as nothing more than the beginnings of theory.
These are smart kids with some pretty high expectations. I don’t think they lack a desire to succeed so much as they lack the necessary skills.
what is see is that although they have not learned good study habits, they have learned to work the system and will pretty much continue to do so as long as they can get away with it.
I have a grandson who is about to learn the hard way in his first year of college that charm and/or bullshit don’t always compensate for procrastination… and not from the educational system.
I sincerely hope he doesn’t pay too high a price for that lesson.
I think we have placed too much of a priority on getting what we want from the system and not getting what we need.
I think this is true whether we are speaking of education or workplace or government or social systems or …
I think it is possible that we have placed so much emphasis on getting the prize with as little effort as possible that we have devalued the prize.
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