RANT: Police Ticket Camera at OLG on 35th and Myrtle

[DBP]

Yes, cwit. Myrtle is within the school zone, so my #37 was incorrect. I got Othello confused with Myrtle. Sorry.

Here’s a picture of the sign for southbound traffic, just as drivers would see it from the right lane:

It’s right at the SW Willow St intersection.

This sign is unobstructed by trees, it’s not close to any other signs, and it’s on an uphill gradient, so I’m guessing drivers will have an easier time slowing down in this direction than they would going northbound (which is on a slight downward gradient I believe).

As with the northbound traffic, southbound drivers also have a full block in which to slow before reaching the intersection at SW Myrtle, where the crosswalk is. So that suggests that the basic school-zone sign placement was correct.

Now all SDOT needs to do is trim back some branches around the northbound sign and maybe relocate that “Alaska Way Viaduct” flashing info sign so it’s not as close to the school zone sign.

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[cjboffoli]

According to the Transportation Research Board, each year in the US there are about 100 children killed and 25,000 injured walking to and from school.

At 20 mph it can take 23 feet to stop your car. At 30 that number increases to 41 feet.

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, a crash at 30mph is eight times more likely to kill a pedestrian than a 20 mph crash. And I’m assuming that statistic refers to adults.

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[rockergirl]

My hubby paid his ticket and is no longer commuting on 35th during this time since he can go other ways to get around the area. The signs going Northbound should be posted farther south in my opinion as they are right at the start of the school parking lot and it gives no warning or time to really slow down. Also there are no signs posted to tell you where the zone ends going either way……so how do we know how far the “zone” is? Does it mean once you get past the light and head down the hill you can speed up? I think not as that is the location where my husband got his ticket. It is also where the driveway into the OLG Parish offices, new gym and parking lot where drop off/pickup happens and as mentioned above lots of accidents happen as parents cross the double solid yellow line turning across two lanes of traffic to enter. Per DOL guidelines it is ok to turn left across double yellows if it is safe. This is not really a very safe area. I don’t disagree with slowing down especially during school hours – what I disagree with is how much the ticket is for – $198 seems rather steep. Stay safe and drive slower makes for a better world for sure.

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[cwit]

rockergirl – I think the higher fee is because they treat school zones similar to work zones.

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[singularname]

I recall the end of a school zone when not marked is 500(??) ft past the school block. One of those many distances that aren’t marked everywhere but that you’re supposed to have memorized (like parking x feet from hydrants, x feet from driveways, etc.).

That’s a good idea about getting a high horse … definitely eliminates the risk of speeding.

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[Betty T]

Speed zones are set for reasons. I’ve worked on a Safety Committee to slow down traffic on 35th. It helped, for a while. Wherever there are kids on foot you never know when they will dash out of nowhere. It’s seen every day. Would your child’s life be worth $189? I only occasionally drive now but years ago I received 2 speeding tickets, years apart. One a busy arterial in a city and the last when about to exit I-5. I was caught by a State Patrol spotter plane who signaled to a patrol car(one of 3-4) waiting on the on ramp. I wasn’t the only one. I was no doubt guilty and paid the fines. Its about being safe and responsible. People are so impatient and in a hurry all the time anymore. Yes, those signs are hard to see when there are leaves on the trees but it needs to be reported. There are many places on 35th where trees obstruct the signs but those who travel it daily know where they are. If you don’t want to pay a fine, don’t do it. Sorry if this includes my friends, or not.

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[mtnfreak]

For your consideration: a pedestrian’s probability of surviving an impact with an auto starts to plummet at speeds over 20mph.

20mph=87%

28mph=27%

40mph=1% or less

So, the question may be: how much do you value a child’s life, and how much should someone be punished for threatening a child’s safety by speeding?

And I’m not innocent in this conversation – I’m notorious for my speeding, and have the tickets to prove it. But in recent years all my cycling around Seattle has made me really sensitive to speeding on urban streets, and I’d like to think I’ve limited my mph over the speed limit habit to streets that are posted above 40mph.

It just seems to me, that the one place we positively absolutely DO NOT want people to speed is around schools. I can only imagine the guilt and shame I would feel for hitting a child – even if I was driving the speed limit – now compound that with speeding, even only 5mph over. I’d never be able to forgive myself, let alone ask a parent to forgive me too.

I don’t know – honestly, I’ve never contested my speeding tickets. I know I was speeding, I got caught, I pay my fine. I do ask the court for leniency, and my last speeding ticket won’t go one my record if I keep clean for 6 more months.

This all means that I while I understand your frustration, I don’t share your perception of “speed traps” and I don’t sympathize. But my tone isn’t critical (which you can’t hear over the net) – just a firm belief that you were in the wrong, you should pay up, and you should move on.

REFERENCE: http://www.sdt.com.au/safedrive-directory-PEDESTRIAN.htm Note that it is in kph, so you either need to be fluent in metric or able to convert.

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[DBP]

Thoughtful comment, mtnfreak.

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Judging from a story I read in today’s Seattle Times, either the OP is fibbing on this deal, or SPD is.

OP says he/she got a ticket a week ago, but SPD says that until November 26 they’re issuing WARNING tickets only.

Starting Monday, Nov. 26, $189 tickets will be automatically mailed to registered owners of vehicles caught speeding past cameras installed in four Seattle school zones. Those zones are near Broadview-Thomson K-8 School, Thurgood Marshall Elementary, Olympic View Elementary and Gatewood Elementary.

[…]

Since Nov. 1, warning citations have been mailed when there are school-zone speed violations, to help spread the word about the cameras before too many drivers face the hefty fines, [an SPD spokesperson] said.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019670843_speedcameras13m.html

So, like I said, someone’s got the story wrong here.

Also note that, according to the news piece, the speeding tickets are issued only for times when the lights are flashing.

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[Cait]

I received a ticket in the supposedly “Photo Enforced” zone by Gatewood a few months ago.

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[kgdlg]

I was not “fibbing”. The ST story is about Gatewood Elem, and that speed trap is on California.

I got a ticket on 35th at Our Lady of Guadeloupe School, which was being monitored by a “mobile van” taking pictures. Different locations. Last I drove on 35th the warning sign was still on the ground leaning against the phone pole warning that speeding is photo enforced.

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[sam-c]

the city must be raking it in from this camera.

I warned my husband to stick to the speed limit. guess he didn’t believe me… got our ticket in the mail today (from Oct 30). he was speeding at 26mph. this was at beacon, going north, and .. he was coming from OLG. maybe now he will listen to me.

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[kgdlg]

All of us who have posted here about tickets were going 26 mph. I am no conspiracy theorist but just sayin’!

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[DBP]

I’m sorry, kg. I thought we were talking about Gatewood here. I believe another person was complaining about Gatewood recently, and I may have gotten the two posts confused.

sam-c, there’s a note about the expected revenue in the Times piece, but it’s a little murky:

A city finance-department document estimates the speed-camera pilot project would generate about $370,000 in net revenue for the city, but it does not say over what period of time.

Some cities have made significantly more than that from a single speed camera: One in Washington, D.C., brought in $11.6 million in under two years, according to The Washington Post.

Seattle’s 2012 budget allotted $560,750 for automated traffic-enforcement pilot programs, which include not only the school-zone speed cameras but also more than 30 red-light cameras, which also are operated by [a private, out-of-state company]. City Council legislation requires that money the city pays to traffic-safety-camera vendors or manufacturers be based only on the value of equipment and services, not on any revenue generated from traffic fines.

They claim this is not about the revenue.

For the record, I think that the “no tolerance” policy is ridiculous, and if they slap people with $189 tickets for 1 mph over the limit, that’s more likely to cause resentment for the law than respect for it. I think the increased enforcement would be better accepted if they ticketed for 25 and over. And I think that’s probably what the will start ticketing for when they start getting blowback over this.

You know what I do now because of this policy? I don’t drive 21 mph in school zones. I don’t even drive 20 mph. I might accidentally go over for a second; why take ANY chance on that $189 ticket?

Nope. I play it safe. I drive 15 mph.

Yup. The whole way.

And I don’t drive 15 mph just when the lights are flashing either. I drive 15 mph all the time. (Again, why take a chance?)

Is that what the Council wanted? For everyone to go from 40 to 15 to 40 in a two-block stretch?

Well, OK then . . . if that’s what they wanted, that’s what I’ll do.

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[DBP]

Now then, while I’m still venting, I want to address this reflexive response that some folks give to any complaint that other people make about enforcement.

They say: “Hey, if you don’t like the fine, don’t do the crime,” thereby conveniently and self-righteously missing the point.

No one here is saying, “I don’t think we should be enforcing school zones.” All they’re saying is, “I think the penalty is too steep.”

Got that? The penalty is too steep. That’s quite a separate question from whether the law is the law.

I’m not impressed with these self-righteous types, because when you scratch them, you usually find a hypocrite.

For example, there’s a certain guy on here who consistently tells drivers they have no right to complain about speeding tickets. Ever. (“If you don’t like it, you shouldn’t be driving a car.”) But how much you wanna bet that this guy has a problem with other laws. I wonder, would he be willing to apply the same logic to them as well?

Hey, you don’t like harsh drug laws?

–No problem. Just don’t do drugs.

Don’t like the death penalty?

–Don’t kill people.

Don’t like voter registration requirements?

–Don’t vote.

Ahhhhh . . .

See how easy that was?

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Several years ago, a guy was coming back from BC with his boat and trailer when a drug-sniffing dog uncovered a couple of marijuana seeds on him. So you know what the Border Patrol did? They took his frikkin boat and sold it. For a couple seeds!

Of course he had no right to complain about the harshness of that penalty, did he? After all, if he didn’t want to lose his boat, he shouldn’t have been smoking marijuana.

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[Kevin]

DBP – I’m adopting the same 15 MPH or less strategy in ALL school zones. Too bad if the folks behind me don’t like it.

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[sam-c]

I don’t think that my husband should give up our car / stop driving because he was going 26 mph.

he’s never hit anything / anyone in 20+ years of driving. he’s a good defensive driver too. the other day we almost t-boned on driver side. the driver (moron) had pulled out in front of us to turn left from a parking lot. I saw that she wasn’t even looking/ paying attention. luckily we were travelling at an appropriate speed and were able to slam our brakes on in time.

I still find it funny though that he says he ‘can’t’ go 20 mph on 35th.

(I don’t know why the ticket said ’35th (beacon)’. there’s no beacon, he was at myrtle- maybe the speed beacon.)

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[kgdlg]

It is my understanding that the “beacon” means it was a mobile beacon on top of a van that sits around the city at different locations, vs. a set camera like on the red light locations.

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[kootchman]

Prove it. That’s the onus on the city. The “presumption” you were the driver is the justification that “you” receive a ticket for and the city is hoping, relying, on you not contesting it due to the “hassle” involved. You DO NOT have to sign the affadavit…in fact you should not. The burden of proof is on the city. Don’t let them steamroll ya. The driver is cited.. and if they can’t cite the driver it’s a bluff.

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[HMC Rich]

If they make $370,000 in revenue, why can’t the city install flashing signs at the Boren school where K5 Stem is located. Parents hold up signs telling people to slow down.

If you speed by a school and get caught you need to do the right thing and pay it. People need to learn to accept responsibility. The fine is high for a reason. I got nailed a few years ago on Roxbury by the Catholic school. Never thought about NOT paying it. Didn’t like it. Yes, it is a huge fine but it made me follow the rules set by the city for the school zones. Have I forgot to slow down now and then, yes, but if I get caught so be it.

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[DBP]

 

     

 

Mayor Mike McGinn said he expected traffic cameras near four Seattle schools to catch a lot of speeding drivers when the devices went live Nov. 1.

But almost 6,000 in less than a month?

“We were surprised,” McGinn said.

Because there were so many speeders, the warning-citation period that was to end this week has been extended to Monday, Dec. 10, he said. From that day on, the registered owners of vehicles caught driving faster than 20 mph in those school zones while beacons are flashing will receive a $189 ticket in the mail.

[…]

If drivers keep exceeding the speed limit in the numbers they did in November, the city of Seattle could collect between $2 million and $4 million in ticket revenue a year, McGinn said.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019784522_speedcameras29m.html

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[DBP]

>>the city of Seattle could collect between $2 million and $4 million in ticket revenue a year, McGinn said.

–And with that tidy little sum in hand – plus another $145 million – they could build another stadium for a private developer.

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[WSratsinacage]

lol

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[w_seattle_alaskan]

I live on 35th and can say with some certainty that people drive WAY too fast here (in general and in the school zone). It may be a four/ five lane road, but it’s also a residential drive. The more cameras SDOT/ SPD put in, the slower people will drive (I don’t care if it’s driving the limit because you’re a good person, or out of fear of a ticket). I’m all for it!

The other day I was driving home heading south on 35th (going the limit, mind you), and a car sped past me as the road goes downhill just past the fire station. They were going maybe 50… fast enough that they weren’t able (or maybe willing) to stop for the red light at Thistle and the red light cam totally busted them (I saw the flash). I think I actually cheered out loud.

Lots of families live up and down 35th… please just drive the speed limit. If you’re late for work don’t try to make the time up on 35th especially in a school zone (you’re just going to sit on the bridge anyway).

Two kids were hit by a motorist yesterday in the school zone outside Chief Sealth.. SLOW DOWN!

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[DBP]

Agreed. Drivers should slow down. Here, there, and everywhere.

>>Two kids were hit by a motorist yesterday in the school zone outside Chief Sealth.. SLOW DOWN!

–Um, as I understand it, the kids who were hit yesterday at Sealth were run down deliberately, so speeding was not the issue there at all.

Guess what was the issue, though.

A friggin’ off-leash dog . . .

Witnesses said two girls were walking to school when a dog ran up and jumped on one of them so she pushed it away. Witnesses said the dog’s owner became enraged and intentionally drove her car into the girls.

http://tinyurl.com/brbwrnq

Considering incidents like this one, is it any wonder that people are hesitant to confront off-leash doggers at Lincoln Park?

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[w_seattle_alaskan]

Yeah, I read that it was an intentional hit and run… but it should also be a reminder that cars are dangerous, and kids are fragile!

Off-leash dogs are a whole other thing… and off-leash dog + reckless driver = someone I wouldn’t confront in a dark alley.

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