Obama vs. McCain

[JoB]

NewResident

Re your article by Tomas Sowell…

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3864

I too like reading him. He presents a reasonable argument.

Unfortunately, it is one without actual facts…

he doesn’t even supply references to the statistics upon which he bases his argument.

and he doesn’t provide the kind of information that would make any of his outcomes more than coincidental to what he labels as cause.

I don’t think it is any secret that the social programs of the 60s didn’t work. but the answer could lie far more in the way the programs were designed and managed than in their existance…

Social programs combined with a lack of real opportunity for those in the programs are doomed to failure.

it is not enough to house, feed and clothe people. they need education and they need opportunity.

If the kind of education you can get in substandard schools doesn’t result in increased employment opportunities…

and if the education you recieve there doesn’t prepare you to actually succeed in college..

then it has not provided opportunity.

If your college education isn’t enough to surmount the color of your skin when it comes to employment opportunities..

then it hasn’t provided opportunity.

When you are talking about the 60s and 70s in the housing projects he mentions… those statements were the norm… opportunity and success the exception.

Those exceptions were created largely by the need to meet equal opportunity quotas…

I know you think things have changed so much now that minorities are getting preference.

But our willingness to provide opportunities for those in poverty really hasn’t changed so much… regardless of skin color.

The new light rail coming from the airport is a good example… It passes through a highly disadvantaged neighborhood on it’s way downtown… disrupting traffic patterns in that neighborhood.

It could have been a huge opportunity for urban renewal in that neighborhood and for efficient and frequent transportation to and from the downtown area.

Why are there so few stops serving the neighborhood? Drive the line and see for yourself.

Why is the ferry service to and from Bainbridge so much faster and more frequent than that to Bremerton?

Why can’t we get Roxbury Av fixed?

All of those issues.. transportation issues.. have more to do with the economic status of the areas they serve than with actual need…

and perhaps that has more to do with the failure of social programs than the programs themselves.

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[JoB]

why rs261..

you’re not a closet republican after all:)

i suspect you are a dissatisfied democrat… as i am.

The need for better parenting is actually why i support Hillary. She has consistently worked to fund programs which benefit single parents, the working poor and children.

She is pro education and would dismantle the no child left behind program immediately.

I think the single most beneficial thing we could do is to fund the health care, education and welfare of our nation’s children.

Our greatest strength has always been founded in the superior education of our population and the abundance of opportunity that inventive minds create.

We have lost that edge and need to regain it… and we can do that by investing in our true assets.. our children.

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[rs261]

you never know with me, I think I’m 1/4 libertarian, and 1/4 green party with a 1/4 republican and democrat thrown in there too. I cant truly identify with just one party, my views are really all over the place.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

i don’t even care about the salaries for CEOs.. though i think the stockholders of those companies should.

but i am concerned that corporations have more legal rights and far fewer legal responsibilities than individuals.

I am concerned that we are subsidizing industries that are making record profits and moving increasing amounts of both manufacture and profit taking (tax reportable income) offshore.

I am concerned that when we prosecute companies for illegal financial transactions.. such as those that happened at Enron… the contracts they negotiated are still legal and binding even though they were negotiated on the basis of false information …

and end up benefiting the companies that purchase their assets at discount without benefiting the employees who lost both their jobs and their retirement.

I am concerned that IRAs… often loaded with company stock.. are not backed up by the pension guarantee fund.. which only guarantees a fraction of actual benefits.

And i don’t expect any of that to change any time soon.

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[JoB]

newResident..

i slipped past your post about corporations…

Unfortunately, many of those that we heavily subsidize are those who employing fewer Americans who want to work now than they were when they began receiving the subsidies.

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[JoB]

rs261…

i think that is true of most democrats these days…

i choose to label myself democrat because in the two party system.. choosing one of the two parties is the only way to realize any political power.

But i am not too happy with what many of my fellow democrats are up to…

I am actually one of the most conservative democrats i know… true conservatism… not the co-opted label the republican’s use to cover their exploitation.

i have chosen subversion.

I try to keep bringing conversation back to the issues because politics really do work from the ground up.

If you can focus conversation on issues instead of the created conversation of politics.. you can change public opinion. and…if you can change that, you can change political opinion..

ok.. it may take longer than my lifetime. the willingness to overlook the rampant sexism against Hillary has demonstrated that…

but i can see local opinions i have influenced in my lifetime. not here.. i haven’t lived here long enough:)

That is a start and perhaps not a small legacy.

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[JoB]

NewResident..

there is something i have wanted to say for a while now..

and something more i should have said more clearly earlier.

it is obvious to anyone who loves dance that you are a dancer. you have a dancer’s body and you move with a dancer’s grace.

and i understand more than most what a betrayal it is when your body fails your dreams.

accidents happen. they happen one way or another to all of us… But i am truly sorry yours happened to you.

I applaud your tenacity. Shattered dreams are more than one person’s excuse for giving up on life.. and it’s obvious that you have not.

Your personal tragedy is not any less because it was not worse..

Your choice to make the most of your life without the dream you sacrificed for is not any less because you had support..

You are right that we all have choices.. and at any time we can all choose to quit.

It’s just that some of us are blessed to have more choices than others.

You were blessed with your dancer’s body even though an accident derailed your dancer’s dreams…

We are both lucky… and don’t we know it:)

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[Anonymous]

JoB, thank you for that last post. Those were very kind words.

Imagine my dismay when I woke up this morning and my computer was down!!! I didn’t know what I was going to do with my day! Lol.

Obviously it’s all fine now!

I think that it is obvious that you, as Democrats, and myself, as a Republican, have very similar desires from our government (in some case anyways). We need to fix the abuse within the federal spending.

JoB, I really respect your challenges that you shared with us. To say you have overcome obstacles is putting it mildly. However, I do want to point out that within your example you talk a lot about being lucky. I disagree. I believe that you made good choices. The choices you make come with consequences. Unfortunately, not everyone makes the right choices.

Another small example: (Not sure about Seattle, because I haven’t looked into it) But in Chicago, there are hundreds of homeless on the streets begging for money. A lot of people don’t realize that there are sufficient shelters for the homeless that offer food and beds. The catch is, you cannot be under any influence, such as drug or alcohol, in order to stay there. That is why, if you are giving money to a homeless person, you are giving them money, not to get a warm meal, but to buy alcohol or drugs. If they really needed food, there are places to go. They just choose not to.

BDG – I’m glad you brought up Starbucks. Although, what the CEO of that company makes each year is not really concerning to me. Starbucks, however, provides millions of jobs for people who are not formally educated. People that do not have a college degree. Do you realize that Starbucks also provides health insurance to their part-time employees? Seems like a pretty good company to work for, in my opinion. Of course, AIM would be the person who would know best.

JT – I do not know statistical specifics regarding welfare. I intend to look into now, though. I will let you know what I find out.

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[beachdrivegirl]

NR, I hadnt realized that about Starbucks glad to know now. :) Thanks for the info. And also like Chicago most shelters are free in Seattle and do offer a warm bed and food under the condition that they are sober. There are a few shelters that ask for $5(unless it is freezing outside and they will waive the $5). But even with the $5 you have to be sober. What some people @ Plymouth Housing suggest is that if you want to help bring the $5 to those shelters and then the next person who walks in is paid for etc.

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[Anonymous]

BDG – Thank you for the info on shelters here in Seattle. And the tip.

I am posting this under the thread about liberals believing everything they hear, but it is not showing up, so I will try it here.

I wanted to share this link because I have heard over and over again how the Democrats want their constitution back. Please explain to me how you can claim to be so pro-constitution and yet not believe in the 2nd amendment?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/gunning_for_obama.html

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[JoB]

NewResident

“JoB, I really respect your challenges that you shared with us. To say you have overcome obstacles is putting it mildly. However, I do want to point out that within your example you talk a lot about being lucky. I disagree. I believe that you made good choices. The choices you make come with consequences. Unfortunately, not everyone makes the right choices.”

oh no, New Resident. I was lucky. I was born to an intelligent woman.. who though she was never educated herself… knew the benefit of education.

it is true that she didn’t set her sights very high for me.. i was after all, a girl, but she definately had expectations for me.

I was lucky, i was born to a woman who was going to make life better for her children no matter what it took.

For mom, that meant working two jobs most of my teen years.. in spite of being ill herself. Mom died at 55 of breast cancer that she first fought in her 30s.

Yes, that meant that as a teen i assumed responsibility for my home and my brothers and sisters.. but thanks to mom’s work ethic we had a home… and a sewing machine so that i could make a great deal of our clothing.

I was lucky. When i got pregnant out of wedlock i wasn’t thrown out of my home. i remained home to care for my brothers and sisters and was able to give my baby up for adoption.

I am lucky.. he found me a few years ago and that has brought blessing and grandchildren into my life…

I was lucky.. after what my mother considered an exceedingly shameful detour.. she housed me while i worked my way through community college.

i was lucky… when my first marriage hit the skids so to speak over a girlfriend my husband wasn’t willing to give up.. my mom took all of us back in and supported us while i worked and attended school…

I was very lucky to have that mother. my cousins did get her.. as much as i love my aunts… they didn’t provide for my female cousins the same opportunities that mom provided for me… for their sons.. yes.. some of them did. but not for their daughters.

i was very lucky…

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[Anonymous]

NR, somehow I missed the post about your history. I’m sorry to hear about your accident and the loss of your dream. And you should be proud that you’ve overcome and moved past obstacles to have a good life. I don’t think that was luck either, I think it was determination and effort.

From a political standpoint, there is a school of thought of, *I did it, so can you. Just chose to not to have a sh..y life.* My point of view, is that in many cases, that can be true. However in many others, it’s just not that simple.

We’re talking about people that have been beaten down in a multitude of ways. Born with drug addictions. Neglected, abandoned, abused. No family structure of any type. Undiagnosed mental disorders. Extreme poverty and the resulting poor health.

When we look at some of these people, we tend to view their life through our experiences and choices and expect them to universally apply. Yes, there are some lazy people. I just don’t think this is the majority, and if we were able to genuinely see life through their shoes, we would see a different picture than the one we assumed.

You have to realize that so many of these people are children in adult bodies. They need their stomach full before they can even be capable of learning self reliance. And I mean that figuratively and literally. You don’t send your child off to school without breakfast and clean warm clothes and a notebook to write in and lunch for later. Yet millions of parents have done just that and those kids became adults.

What would you have them do? Do you know what years of poor nutrition and abuse does to a person? These are not fully functioning people. Do you really believe the *welfare* lifestyle is a chosen career path? Again, so many apply answers based on their own choices and experiences.

I don’t have the answers myself. I just think throwing around the help yourself, make better choices, be self-reliant, or any other catch phrase, over simplifies the problem and is not a true solution.

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[JoB]

NewResident,

I am not sure how you could think that Democrats don’t support the second amendment.

Perhaps you don’t know what it actually says. Most people don’t.

I have never heard any democrat suggest that we disband our national guard… which is in essence a state controlled militia… a direct consequence of the second amendment.

this piece does an far more extensive breakdown of what the myths about the second amendment are than i would ever do.

http://www.guninformation.org/secondamendment.htm

I am not against gun ownership.. tho i have chosen not to own one.

I am strongly for gun control. I don’t believe anyone should be sold a gun without proper licensing and proof of instruction.. which should include a test on gun safety.

We license cars and test drivers.. it’s not much different. Both are weapons in the hands of both fools and criminals.

My daughter was at Virginia Tech on the day of the shooting… she is an engineering student.. and she was scheduled to be both in the area and in that building that morning. She was lucky. she slept in. Some of her friends weren’t so lucky.

Until the advent of Blackwater being depolyed in the United States, i saw absolutely no reason why any citizen would require an automatic weapon or armor piercing bullets…

and i still think it would be easier to rid ourselves of uncontrolled private security than to arm our citizenry.

There is a huge difference between arming a militia and arming private citizens… The second constitution talks about allowing private citizens the right to bear arms so that they would be armed and available as a citizen militia.

it doesn’t talk about the right to buy and brandish uzis.

And as a person who in willing to give up their personal freedoms to combat terrorism.. i would think you would be in the forefront of those wanting gun control.

after all.. what do you think made it so easy for terrorists to train here?

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[Anonymous]

JoB, the link goes dead for me.

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[Anonymous]

JT – I can see where you believe that throwing around those phrases over simplifies the problem and is not a true solution. I agree. Saying that does not solve anything.

But I do think that too many people do not listen and hear those phrases and therefore, do not apply them to them selves.

Obviously bad apples will ruin most things (please refer to the RANT: Target thread), and unfortunately the bad apples receiving government assistance have ruined the entire idea.

I was going through, looking at statistics about welfare (as I promised you I would do), and I cannot tell you how many articles I found that reflect different individuals who receive that assistance. Most of these people have drinking and drug problems and do not, even with the money provided to them from the government, provide for their children. What I get tired of hearing is the excuses. They cannot get a job because they have a substance abuse problem, they cannot take of their children because they are high.

I think it goes both ways on this issue. Democrats get tired of hearing us Reps say, “get a job”, “make better choices”, etc. Reps get tired of hearing, “it’s not their fault”.

Do you realize that it is the tax payers money that supports that entire FLDS compound in Texas? These are able bodied women. They should not be getting money from other people (people they look down on, no less) to maintain their illegal lifestyle.

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[Anonymous]

JoB – Your post actually reminds me a lot of Obama. You begin by stating that you are not against the right to bear arms (or, 2nd amendment, which, thank you but I do know what it says) and then continue the post the reasons why citizens should not be allowed to own guns. It’s a little wishwashy to me.

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[JoB]

JT…

you said it well…

i think people tend to forget that when we closed the psychiatric hospitals.. all of those patients went somewhere.. and in most cases, it wasn’t home to their loving families.

A very small percentage of the people living on our streets are there because that is where they choose to be. the rest are there because they have nowhere else to go.

I know very respectable women who lived in their cars for months.. and in one case years.. before their disability was finally processed. I had a “pot luck” lunch meeting at my house once a week for a long time just so those of us who were better off could make their lives easier…

When we think of shelters, we tend to think of nice residence homes with private rooms.. but the truth about most shelters is that they are little more than barracks… and that sleeping in some of them can be more dangerous than being on the street.

They were safer in their cars… even tho most shelters do require sobriety.

Many homeless people medicate their physical and emotional pain with alcohol… sooner or later the alcohol itself becomes an additional problem.

Perhaps we should treat them before we condemn them because of their circumstances…

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[beachdrivegirl]

Also, you are forgetting that there are many more homeless than shelters and shelters dont just appear out of nowhere. They need money to run and operate or even to be built and unfort. every time there is another tax cut it is typically the homeless programs and or mental health programs that lose their grants. And they are losing these large grants faster then money from doners can come in.

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[Anonymous]

I understand that for the disabled (someone with a condition such as yours, JoB), federal assistance is necessary. Why do you suppose there is such a lengthy time limit for it to kick in? Maybe, could it be, that there are people trying to get approved that shouldn’t be?

Unfortunately, I have no tolerance for someone who chooses to become an alcoholic in order to self medicate and then turn around and expect taxpayers to give them money or get them out of the circumstance they have put themselves in.

I’m interested in how you would suggest treating these people? Another government program? I would not necessarily call it condemning them, so much as having no tolerance for the excuses.

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[JoB]

New resident…

If you know what the 2nd amendment actually says, then you know that it’s subject matter is a militia…. not the right of any citizen to own any gun.

i come from a hunting family. i was taught gun safety at a very early age.

I could probably still outshoot most of the people who make so much noise about the right to bear arms… at least i still could 15 years ago.. the last time i personally shot a gun.

I am no longer a sharpshooter like my brothers.. but i was taught by the same hand they were…

i am not faint of heart when it comes to weapons or unable to or unwilling to use them… if i have to for self defense.

The key words there are “have to” and “self defense”…

I don’t object to citizens owning guns. But i do object to giving blanket approval for all citizens to own automatic weapons.

there is no legitimate reason why any citizen should be able to go out and buy automatic weapons.

what exactly are they going to use them for since their only real purpose is to kill people quickly and efficiently?

do you realize that the massacres occurring in our schools are the direct result of citizens being able to purchase automatic weapons?

You just can’t kill that many people that fast without them.

The availability of guns in our society has not made people safer. In fact, it has had the opposite effect.

My cousin was killed in her own home by a gun that was in a gun safe that a young man the family befriended took out of the safe and used to kill her, her son (his best friend), her daughter and then himself.

She was killed by her own gun… and that isn’t so uncommon.

You need a license to drive a car. You need to prove that you can handle that car safely.

Why on earth shouldn’t we do the same thing with guns?

Look at the statistics.

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[Anonymous]

NR, I can’t find any information to support the claim that the FLDS are abusing welfare. On a news site, that is. Lots of blogs are saying they do. It is my understanding that the Texas location has a cement factory among other businesses. I also found this story on CNN interesting. Apparently the pentagon has contracts with FLDS companies to buy machined parts.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/polygamy.pentagon/index.html

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[beachdrivegirl]

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/is_a_minimum-wage_worker_officially_in_poverty.html

Factcheck.org on poverty.

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[JoB]

New resident…

I am going to assume you are just ignorant about how the disability process works in the United States.

To get disability, you have to be unable to work for medical reasons, you have to have been unemplyed for a period of time which i think is at least 6 months… and you have to be under a doctor’s care.

You can’t get disability for any condition which can be treated and managed well enough for you to return to work…

work means ANY gainful employment.

at your final disability hearing.. an “expert” on employment possibilities will present their opinion on what work you could possibly do in spite of your disability… based simply upon the your doctor’s medical report.. without meeting you or evaluating your capabilities.

I explain all of this to you because i want you to know that the process for applying for disability is not for whimps.

it can take 6 months to several years for your application to be processed… but if you are truly disabled and persist.. the chances of your application being finally accepted at your hearing are pretty high.

the backlog in the system which created such long waiting periods isn’t due to people trying to cheat the system. It’s due to underfunding the system.

The last time i checked the statistics, more people died in my county waiting for the social security disability determination than were turned down as a fraudulent application.

if you are without substantial savings… you will need to find a free clinic to treat you.. because you can’t get disability unless you are under a doctor’s care.

and you can’t get state funded medical care unless you are on disability… or most other kinds of public assistance.

For instance, you have to have an address to qualify for food stamps… but if you are living at a friends… whether for free or paying rent.. the entire household income is considered in your application.

if you are living in your car.. you have no address.

so.. you wait a year or two or three before you get your hearing.. and by the way.. that’s after you are already disabled and unable to work for more than 6 months (i think it’s 6 months).

If you are lucky, you have savings to support you while you wait…

but most don’t. Many don’t survive long enough to collect the benefits they were entitled to…

And you are not done once you are granted benefits. Depending upon your disability, you will be reviewed periodically and can have your benefits suspended during the review.

suicide is the greatest health risk to the disabled…

that doesn’t say much for our society.

BTW … you should know…

social security disability is not a handout program.

It is public disability insurance that you have no choice but to contribute to while you work…

and is paid out dependent upon your personal earnings…

Instead of being based on your lifetime earnings, your benefit is based on the earnings during the last 4 quarters… if you were out of work for any time before filing, for any reason including your medical condition… your benefit decreases.

Unfortunately, many people aren’t educated about that benefit and wait too long to file.. hoping against hope that they will recover and return to work.

I am afraid the reality is a long ways from the myth of people trying to scam the system… and yet severely ill people are marginalized daily because of that myth.

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[Anonymous]

I don’t understand, JoB, why you keep insisting that I don’t know what the 2nd Amendment says. It does speak of militia but also goes on to say “…the right of the (P)people to keep and bear (A)arms(,) shall not be infringed.”

I actually agree with your suggestion that licenses should be required to own a firearm.

I’m simply pointing out that it states in the constitution we have a right to own a firearm and most Democrats do not believe that citizens should own firearms. So, this talk of wanting your constitution back seems a little ridiculous. I think what you mean to say is that you want your parts of the constitution that you *agree* with back.

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[Anonymous]

JoB – you’re right. I’m absolutely ignorant of the process the disabled must go through to be approved. Thank you for explaining. It’s pretty depressing.

BDG – You’re link about minimum wage/poverty was interesting and depressing as well.

So what should we do? Raise taxes? Take more of *our* money? Or maybe these programs need to be completely torn down and fixed.

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[Author]

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