Now Denny's is getting involved (healthcare related)

[wakeflood]

Hey Bostonian,

I don’t think anyone’s particularly surprised. I’m not, doesn’t sound like JoB is either.

I’m trying to figure out if you’re making the case for single payer, cuz single payer – like almost every other country that has it – has cost controls. If you’re saying that health care is like every other business and you can’t have dictated margins, then you can’t have single payer and you get what you have now, which is untenable. And single payer with dictated profit works in those countries. Companies do provide services there.

So, what are you suggesting exactly?

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[JoB]

wakeflood..

i don’t believe public education is a lost cause.

i believe it is our only hope as a democratic nation.

we somehow seem to have raised generation(s) who can quote sources but can’t tell the difference between a good and a bad argument and have no idea what to do when the power goes out.

Now is not the time to give up on public education.

Now is the time to invest in it.

the power won’t stay on forever.

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[Smitty]

So, according to JoB if you dislike *some* parts of government you must hate the entire thing (internet, etc from #14 above). That being the case, wake, do you hate *all* capitalism?

Do you, Job?

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[Bostonman]

I actually think there should have been a single payer system in place with Obamacare but because there wasn’t I think he did the worst thing possible. Shove through legislation that wasn’t and isn’t going to accomplish its stated goals.

Regardless of whose fault it was that there isn’t a single payer system with the healthcare program doesn’t matter. In business you sometimes need to understand that no decision can sometimes be better than a bad decision.

Instead now, we have a program in place that is going to only hurt the lower middle class and lower class. Companies will still come out whole and insurance companies can still do what they want.

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[wakeflood]

OK Bostonian, I reread your post and maybe you’re suggesting that the govmnt needed to provide their own insurance option in ACA? If that is what you suggest, they tried to insert that and it got shot down by the for profit lobby. They said, don’t worry, we’ll provide something that fills that void. Which was the same argument they used to shoot down “Medicare for All”. Which was my favorite fallback position.

Basically, what I’m saying is people don’t get both sides of the argument. You can’t say Obama screwed up when all the better options he was willing to implement were shut down. It’s the same old conservative crap. Spend whatever it takes to ensure regulation is the least effective it can be and then complain that it doesn’t work.

I’m not saying you favor that, just that it happens time after time…

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[JoB]

Bostonman

“The government can’t take over something in the public market only halfway. If they were going to make something like this successful they needed a government plan, a way to keep the insurance companies from jacking up premiums and a way to keep companies from manipulating the system.”

I agree completely. No surprises here for me either.

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[wakeflood]

Well, if nothing else, and this is actually very damn important, they can’t deny for pre-existing. And that’s huge and worth the fight.

It will take time and more $ and energy to get to a better place. Maybe this flawed system will get some significant upgrades on the way to single payer. I sure hope so.

Thanks for clarifying.

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[Bostonman]

Post 13 is accomplished ( I can’t find a link to support it) by creative accounting. If you have any idea how government accounting and non-profit accounting works then you know that all of these are set up through agency and proprietary funds. The expenses of adminstering Medicare and Medicade are buried in another fund. So, you can manipulate the cost of delivery for something.

It’s all a big accounting nightmare that if you want to unravel it by fund you better be a very experienced accountant or auditor. It’s all per GAGAS (Generally Accepted Government Accounting Standards) but it’s still tricky to understand.

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[JoB]

Smitty…

please find the post where i indulged in name calling in regards to capitalism?

because that was the point of my post.. the name calling indulged by those who label government as the problem

and by the way only consider it big government if they think it prevents them from doing something they think would be in their own individual best interests.

which btw.. is exactly when i think government should step in.. when an individual’s perceived best interests is detrimental to the majority…

Frankly, i don’t have that big a problem with capitalism. i think that given man’s nature capitalism is as good as any other economic model.

but i don’t think capitalism is what is in play..

so your question becomes a moot point.

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[Bostonman]

Well Wake, money in politics is a bad thing. That’s all I can say. I still stand by my position that even if its all controlled by democrats that money in politics will still keep most things from being done.

It’s so expensive to run for public office these guys understand they need that money if they are going to be re-elected. Of course, campaign finance reform is a whole different subject.

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[JoB]

Bostonman…

“I actually think there should have been a single payer system in place with Obamacare but because there wasn’t I think he did the worst thing possible. Shove through legislation that wasn’t and isn’t going to accomplish its stated goals.”

and here comes the real catch 22..

the alternative to that was to do nothing…

and let the healthcare industry completely bankrupt the nation.

would that have been a better alternative?

We can all agree that Obamacare was not the best solution

but you don’t get street cred in this discussion without offering a viable alternative solution.

It’s time to fix what is wrong with Obamacare

not to revisit the question of whether or not health care reform was necessary.

If business got behind single payer in any form it would pass.

because that is where the money to get elected comes from

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[wakeflood]

Smitty, do I hate all capitalism? Nope. I’ve run my own company and I’ve worked for others big and small.

I will offer the same critique of capitalism as the Father of the Free Market, Adam Smith:

”When the regulation, therefore, is in support of the workman, it is always just and equitable; but it is sometimes otherwise when in favour of the masters.”

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[Bostonman]

My fix is far to long for these boards. But, you can’t put the cart before the horse. That is what happened here.

Hell, who even knows if my fix would have been better but, I understand business. I have run my own business and now I am a partial owner in this business. To me, this was done backwards.

Yes, sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something. Or, at least, trying to look at better options while doing nothing. Instead, I think pushing this through was political pandering.

Sorry, I don’t need any cred. The fact that this has all come to light should be enough to realize that what was done is going to have a negative effect not a positive one. So, if anything, government lost the cred.

I think trying to fix Obamacare now is going to make it end up costing a lot more money than it did initially. If you can fix it without adding costs then ok.

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[wakeflood]

Boston, in reply to your “buried costs of delivery” for Medicare/Medicaid, it may very well be higher than quoted once you unravel the accounting, but even if it’s double what is quoted, it’s still a better deal than private insurance. Oh, and if you want to know how much of a scam private health insurance really is, you can read from a guy who spent his whole career inside it at high levels. Here’s just one of his posts:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wendell-potter/the-illusory-promise-of-f_b_1851691.html

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[wakeflood]

And yes, Boston, I agree, money weirds politics. I think it is the root of most/all of the issues we have regarding government. It’s now officially an arm of the plutocracy. Bought and paid for.

If we solve THAT issue, we go a long way toward solving many, many others…

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. JFK

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[wakeflood]

And just so we’re clear, we’re bashing Obama for getting some forward motion on an issue that lay unattended for 30yrs. as the third rail of politics.

Tens of millions more people will get insurance – which reduces $Billions of unpaid emergency room bills that you and I pay for in our premiums.

Let’s direct the scorn at the true perpetrators of the pain, both literally and figuratively.

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[Bostonman]

Well, I am not bashing Obama on it. He just happened to be the one in office but there are a lot of people to blame for it. All the way from lobbyists to senators.

Just because something was ignored for 30 years doesn’t mean we should make decisions in haste. We should be thoughtful and calculating. I don’t look at it as forward motion because I think its going to cause a lot of people pain before it causes them good.

I don’t think tens of millions of people will get insurance because they still need to pay for it. In addition, they likely make such a small amount of money they won’t need to pay the tax either. So, I don’t think any claims should be made about enrollment until we start to see what happens over the next year.

If I was poor and didn’t need to pay the tax I wouldn’t go buy a policy. I would just continue to do what I was doing before. So, we shall see but you have one huge assumption built into your prior statement.

Will insurance companies that save money actually pass that savings onto other policy holders? My bet is absolutly not.

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[JoB]

bostonman

“Yes, sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something. Or, at least, trying to look at better options while doing nothing. Instead, I think pushing this through was political pandering.”

we can agree on the political pandering. I am not buying the “the republicans made us do it” gambit any more than you are.

but we had to start somewhere

something had to be done.

I opened AARP’s November bulletin today to these sobering figures..

According to a new study by the Institute of Medicine based on figures from the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services …

out of $2.8 trillion dollars in yearly health care expenditures,… $765 billion is wasted dollars .. that’s about 27%.

want to know how that breaks down?

$75 billion .. the much touted fraud

$55 billion … missed prevention opportunities

which Obamacare is designed to rectify

$105 billion .. excessive prices..

levied against those without a healthcare insurance company that negotiates lower prices…

$130 billion .. preventable errors/mistakes

like complications arising from prematurely discharging patients after surgery..

$190 billion … Insurance and bureaucratic costs

$210 billion … unnecessary services

this is what following the dictates and priorities of capitalism has done for our health care system.

Obamacare is not a perfect solution

but it is a start.

isn’t it time big business got behind single payer?

it’s certainly in their best interests.

for someone who understands business

you seem to have a really difficult time differentiating between what is good for wall street

and what is good for business.

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[skeeter]

JoB – I don’t think the government is bad. I’m a frequent user of government services. I use the roads. I use the libraries. I get protection from the U.S. military. If I called 911 I am confident that a responder would help me.

I was simply pointing out that ACA has some pretty lousy consequences for certain folks. My buddy used to have a 40 hour per week job with no medical benefits at $10.50/hour. Now he has been notified he will have a 29 hour per week job with no medical benefits at $10.50/hour. If he was an isolated case it wouldn’t be all that relevant. I don’t think he is alone though. I think many, many employers will choose this option. This individual is considerably worse off with ACA. That is my only point. I’m not saying ACA is bad. There are winners and there are losers. It’s just lousy that my friend earning only $10.50/hour happens to be one of the losers.

I’m actually in agreement with you. And I think Bostonman is too. Single-payer system is the only reasonable resolution. That’s the only way we can make sure (1) everyone has medical coverage and (2) businesses are not saddled with the insanely high price tag for that coverage.

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[Bostonman]

How so JoB? I think having a revamped healthcare program is what was needed, no doubt. But, does anyone expect insurance companies to pass on any savings to other policy holders? If you do then you are living in a pipe dream.

You do know Wall street in many ways is seperate from most companies right? I am sure you do. Wall street is for public companies. Most of those companies off shore their jobs anyways. Most business aren’t associated with wall street. They are just trying to get by. But, they are owned by individual investors who are trying to get a return on their dollar.

My prediction, the near term effect (2 to 4 years) will be more part time jobs, a reduction in full time jobs, a reluctance to hire above the phase out limitation for companies and insurance companies with ever growing profit margins. I am sure business would have liked having a single payer program so they could drop insurance coverage. At least they wouldn’t have to wrestle with the ethical decision at that point.

I should take the money I made on Bank of America and buy insurance stocks. But, instead I used it to buy a few AR 15’s. Oh well. I guess we win some and lose some.

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[wakeflood]

It sounds like it’s going to take each and every one of us to physically show up on the steps of congress demanding single payer for it to happen. And even then, I’m not sure there’s enough will power to buck the Health Care Industrial Complex.

I’d be more optimistic if the brainwashed fools mindlessly following the right wing pundits realized they were being played – all the way to their grave…

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[Lindsey]

“But, does anyone expect insurance companies to pass on any savings to other policy holders?”

Yes, actually. It’s a provision of the ACA called the medical loss ratio rule. Basically, it means that insurance companies must spend at least 80% of the premiums they collect on actual care, instead of adding that money to their profit or using it for lobbying, etc.

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/resources/reports/mlr-rebates06212012a.html

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[Bostonman]

Look at that Lindsey, you provided me some interesting reading. So, I didn’t see anything indicating what the current MLR is for each company. I will still be curious if we will see anything back or if they will funnel it to the doctors.

Thanks for the link though. Very interesting.

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[DBP]

Lindsey, enforcing that provision might turn out to be rather difficult. It depends on what is included in the definition of “actual care.”

Could that also include management costs, I wonder?

Depreciation?

Billing expenses?

Lotsa wiggle room there, I ‘spects.

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Re: #46

I’d be more optimistic if the brainwashed fools who think the plutocracy behind the right wing pundits actually realized they were being played – all the way to their grave…

wakeflood, here’s something I don’t get.

Why is that whenever a Mitt Romney does something that serves the interests of big money, certain people call him a nasty plutocrat, but whenever Obama does the same damn thing, people make excuses for him?

Romney criticizes ACA, he’s a villain.

Obama cuts deal with Big Pharma, he’s a victim.

‘splain that to me please.

Your Humble & Obdt. Fool,

–DBP

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[DBP]

Just looked this up after my last post . . .

The govt. watchdog “OpenSecrets” reports that for the 2012 race Big Pharma donated considerably more to Mr. Obama than they did to Mr. Romney.

 

 

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=h4300

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