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June 14, 2010 at 10:07 pm #595189
DPMember. . . or “Scenes from the Class Struggle in Highland Park.”
In the last post re: The Deeply Boring Tunnel, JoB had mentioned the Monorail, and I thought this topic deserved its own post, so here goes.
I voted FOR the Monorail project the first two times around. Although I live in a neighborhood that would not have been served by it, I still thought it was a neat idea and was willing to pony up a thousand dollars of my tax money to pay for it.
But then, a few years into the project, things started going horribly wrong. First, it looked like it was going to cost more, MUCH more, than was originally projected. Then, it turned out that it wasn’t even going to get very many people out of their cars.
The last straw came when a fellow I know who lives off California Ave (in a very nice house) told me he was registering his BMW at his cabin outside the city, so he wouldn’t have to pay the extra $300 Seattle Monorail license-tab fee.
That effin’ made me mad! Here was a guy who had money and who almost certainly WOULD be using the monorail.
-His annual license tab fee: $0
And then there was me, with my Mazda Protege and modest house off Delridge, who WOULDN’T be using the monorail.
-My annual license tab fee: $130
To add to this insult, there was a loophole for buyers of new cars (including Beamers) who were exempt from the tab fee for the first year.
At that point I realized how badly conceived and executed the Monorail plan had been. When the third vote came, I voted to terminate, with extreme prejudice.
I’m all for Seattle being a World Class City.
I’m all for massive public works projects led by wild-eyed dreamers.
I’m just not for the little guys footing the bill, while the rich guys skate.
I’ll get you, my pretty. And your little dog, too!
.
June 14, 2010 at 10:30 pm #696539
JoBParticipantDP..
those that have are the least likely to pony up.. even when it comes to things like license tabs… you may as well get used to the idea that the middle class subsidizes the lifestyles of the rich and infamous because we do it every day.
as for the cost over-runs… there was something rotten in the connection between the city and their favored geo-tech engineering firm and probably still is… you may as well get used to that one too because the city keeps choosing them.
The low benefit analysis was a big hoax.. and one that is dragged out every time those with vested interests want to derail public transportation projects.
Ridership in Portland’s rapid transit system beat all projections for the first year in the first few months.
it’s funny.. but it you build it and it goes somewhere people want to go.. they will ride it.
it’s sad that a few manage to exploit the PR machine to convince taxpayers to cut off funding for projects that will benefit the masses.. but find ways to convince them that projects that will benefit the few get funded.
West Seattle didn’t get much needed commuter services.. but the SLUT at Lake Union.. that gets funded..
Not such a good choice in the long run since they spent your money anyway and i am betting that guy who registers his car at his mountain cabin to escape paying licensing fees is still doing so.
Who won this one?
June 14, 2010 at 10:34 pm #696540
JoBParticipantbtw.. it isn’t just West Seattle..
when they built the light rail train to the airport.. they put it right down MLK blvd cutting an emerging business commuity in two without providing the kind of passenger stops on surface streets that would have balanced the disruption with function for that neighborhood.
I guess they didn’t want to scare off riders to their airport shuttle by allowing disadvantaged citizens to use that train.
June 14, 2010 at 11:52 pm #696541
dhgParticipantWe were big monorail supporters until the final vote. At that point, it was a very short monorail and it appeared to be unreasonably expensive. I don’t know what happened but all bidders for building it pulled out save one. It was going to cost more than $1million / linear foot and that just did not seem reasonable.
June 15, 2010 at 12:14 am #696542
JoBParticipantJune 15, 2010 at 1:07 am #696543
DPMemberI expect the monorail would have attracted more riders than the anti-transit pessimists predicted. I just don’t think it would have attracted enough to justify the costs. As a matter of fact, busing downtown from just about anywhere in West Seattle is already a pretty easy affair—Huzzah for Metro!—so it seems like everyone in WS who would have ridden the monorail is already riding buses. So where’s the net gain?
What many supporters of big, glamorous transit projects don’t get is that you actually get more b-b-bang for the b-buck with b-b-buses and HOV lanes. In fact, for the same money it would have taken just to keep the monorail running every year, you could probably give everyone who lives in WS a FREE bus pass.
Still, all other things being equal, people will always go for a monorail or LR over buses. Why? Don’t tell me; I already know. —Buses are crowded with funky, noisy people. They don’t run on schedule. They don’t run often enough. They have to wait in traffic . . .
So what do you do? -Go with a controversial, expensive, high-tech solution? No. You buy more buses so they won’t be crowded and you can run them on time. Then you dedicate more HOV lanes so they won’t have to wait in traffic.
Wanna see more people riding a bus to work? Just hike the gas tax another buck and make the bus fare 25 cents for everyone. Who wants to sit in traffic burning $4.00/gallon gas watching people on buses whiz cheaply and comfortably by on their way downtown?
Would such a low-tech solution take vision? -Yup.
Would it take political guts? -Assuredly.
Don’t look for it happening any time soon.
June 15, 2010 at 1:17 am #696544
JayDeeParticipantI am all for Bus Rapid Transit with dedicated lanes. Getting the buses into dedicated lanes is the way to encourage people to ride them, and not just the funky folks. Leaving buses in the street grid is not a solution.
I also voted for the Monorail 4 times with a Yes vote and estimated I paid $2000 over the Monorail years for vehicle taxes because I owned one of those German cars.
June 15, 2010 at 1:48 am #696545
JoBParticipantDP
i am guessing that you don’t commute to work by bus…
getting to and from downtown Seattle on games nights is a good reminder of why a high speed option would increase public transit ridership…
there is a point at which more buses channeled through congested areas just means more congestion.
June 15, 2010 at 2:26 am #696546
maplesyrupParticipantI was all for the monorail until the existing one broke down a few times and the city took months to fix it.
I’d still like to see a rail option to downtown though. Last time I tried to take the bus- on a Saturday afternoon to boot- it took 45 minutes to get to Seattle Center.
June 15, 2010 at 3:26 am #696547
DPMemberPssst!
Secretly, I like light rail.
Secretly, I even like monorails.
(Hope I never have to vote against one again.)
JayDee: Thanks for doing the right thing. You’re cool.
June 15, 2010 at 2:05 pm #696548
JoBParticipantmaplesyrup..
i am guessing monorail repair would have a higher priority if it was a commuter service
DP..
the best system is one that coordinates so that buses can be used effectively in less congested areas…
i am betting the water taxi would get more commuters if there was a more reliable bus connection…
the trouble is that Seattle doesn’t seem to get the traffic flow thing.. whether we are talking about actual traffic, public transportation or road repair.
maybe we really should go back to boats:)
June 15, 2010 at 2:42 pm #696549
dhgParticipantHas it been so long since the ice storm that you’ve forgotten the problem with buses? They don’t move when the roads ice up. A monorail would’ve kept on truckin’. And that is really the point. The monorail is designed as 24/7 mass transit, not dependent on thousands of cars staying out of its way. The sky train in Vancouver is AWESOME. The problem with the monorail, JOB, was not City and County Government. The project was being run by a group of people elected by the core pro-monorail people. Unfortunately, they just couldn’t pull it off.
June 15, 2010 at 4:17 pm #696550
JoBParticipantdhg..
my daughter supplied some inside scoop that pointed to inflated engineering costs as one of the major contributors to it’s demise…
supplied by the firm with the inside city/county track.
June 15, 2010 at 4:38 pm #696551
villagegreenMemberSo, this is a bit off topic. But last year (just after Mike McGinn was elected) I remember reading an interview with Richard Conlin (City Council President) in The Stranger saying he expected light-rail to West Seattle to be the next easy line. He seemed to imply that funding would be in place sometime this year. Has anyone heard anything about this lately?
June 15, 2010 at 4:46 pm #696552
maplesyrupParticipantJoB- look around and you’ll see that the repairs/renovations were fairly extensive. Not something that gets done in a couple of weeks.
June 15, 2010 at 5:53 pm #696553
dawsonctParticipantA very good friend of the family is a transportation engineer. He explained to me all of the mechanical nightmares that a monorail system WILL have. A monorail breaks down, and the whole line breaks down, until they can clear one end of the line and get a maintenance vehicle to the train. If the breakdown occurs on a single-track section, the WHOLE line would shut down.
Imagine the views as you sat in the monorail stranded over the Duwamish for 5 hours, waiting for rescue. Hope you had a good book.
Dual-track rail doesn’t have the same problems because access is usually easier and track switching technology is much more straightforward.
There is a reason that a “new” technology like monorail hasn’t taken over for dual rail in the century+ since it was introduced; that is because it simply isn’t as good.
Whatever your reasons were for voting against the monorail, the fact is, we dodged a bullet. It would have quickly become a stunningly expensive white elephant.
—
Rail, rail everywhere!
Rail, baby, rail!
June 16, 2010 at 1:05 am #696554
anonymeParticipantI never supported the monorail for all of the “against” reasons given above, and a few more. For one thing, I used to live in Belltown and I can assure you that the sound from the monorail was anything but the “gentle whoosh” described by supporters. Fifth Ave. along the monorail line is pretty deserted; the monorail is undoubtedly partly to blame. For one thing, most people find it disconcerting to have a huge machine racing directly above their heads. The monorail creates a pretty stiff wind as it passes that blows trash around, and dirt and debris into the faces and eyes of pedestrians. Not a pleasant environment at all. I always walked on a different street for those very reasons.
The monorail has always struck me as more of a Seattle landmark/theme park ride rather than a viable transportation system. I suspect that many folks who support(ed) the monorail might take a very different view if it were to be built in front of their house.
June 16, 2010 at 2:49 am #696555
JoBParticipantyes it took a while to fix the monorail, but ..
that one is ancient technology and long term maintenance wasn’t high on their list of priorities…
there are a lot of cities with monorail type transit systems that run well and are very dependable..
there are even a lot of cities with ancient elevated systems that still run well and haven’t killed commerce under them…
monorails don’t have to run on a single track like the one put in mostly as an amusement ride for the Seattle World’s Fair did.
Nor do the new ones make the same kind of noise that our existing monorail does.
That monorail is almost as old as i am… and in spite of being untested ancient technology.. is holding up better than this advanced prototype.
June 16, 2010 at 3:02 am #696556
DPMemberOK, I’m gonna eat my words and come back out swinging for the monorail.
anonyme, I’m sure your gripes about the old monorail are true. (They don’t sound made-up anyway.) Others’ gripes are true as well. But remember that any transit system is going to have drawbacks, and you’ve got to weigh those against the benefits to be fair. You can’t just say “I don’t like Whoosh! so monorail’s bad.”
Someone mentioned Vancouver’s SkyTrain, and that’s a good working model of what a monorail system can be. I’ve taken it several times: It’s fast, it’s cheap, it’s reliable, and I didn’t hear anyone on the ground complaining about Whoosh! —probably because the rail was so high off the ground.
Granted, whole neighborhoods were chewed up to build it.
Granted, it breaks down occasionally, and when that happens the whole system is down for the duration, like a garbage truck in the snow.
Granted, it must’ve cost a shitload of gold.
But it does work, and people seem really happy with it.
Fact: Buses have Whoosh! too. I hear it about 100 times a day from my house two blocks away.
Fact: Light rail has so much Whoosh! they had to grease the tracks.
Fact: Put a hundred cars on a freeway and you’ve got something even worse than Whoosh!
-You’ve got <lion> ROAR!!! </lion>
June 19, 2010 at 10:49 am #696557
HMC RichParticipantI wanted the Monorail or some type of train. I wish it would have been executed properly instead of executed.
I might be fuzzy but I seem to remember Sound Transit light rail after a bad start got their act together, but it is not conveniant at all unless you live next to the line.
That is why I liked the monorail idea due to the proximity of the line. The Water Taxi vans make it relatively conveniant to get down to it. Metro could make the bus lines better feeder lines in my estimation if they wanted to.
I do have one solution for changing a HOV lane situation. When I travel on I-90 I get miffed because there are not HOV lanes going both ways at the same time. The Express lanes are not utilized correctly.
The state should put up a barrier right down the middle of the Express lanes seperating the left and right lanes and make those lanes the HOV lanes moving traffic simultaneously east and West. Currently the only HOV lane not part of the Express lanes causes a merge problem choke point coming East.
Yes, have 24/7 HOV lanes instead of main line and express lanes open in the morning going west and only 3 lanes on the mainline going east (with no HOV lane available)and vice versa in the evening.
I just do not see this city getting its act together for a different public transit situation. Maybe some day they will.
June 19, 2010 at 2:44 pm #696558
velo_nutParticipantIf city and state projects would actually go out for competitive bid, they wouldnt cost so much.
So many of the Architects, GC’s and Subs are grandfathered into a project or just handed work and were surprised when they cost so much.
Public work should NOT have 45% margin in them!
June 19, 2010 at 3:19 pm #696559
anonymeParticipantDP, if you read the first sentence of my post I indicated that I was only adding an issue to the list of monorail complaints in previous posts. I don’t like redundancy, so chose not to repeat them all. The “whoosh” was far from the only reason for my objection to the monorail, although it does make an easier target for attack and dismissal.
You make good points about the noise from traffic and buses, especially traffic; I agree completely. My point was – and is – that I have never been convinced that the monorail would have more than minimal impact on transportation issues, at absolute maximum cost.
I’ve never ridden the SkyTrain (issue with heights!). Does it run through residential neighborhoods? I know quite a few people who take the Sounder train and love it. Urban rapid transit is proving to be a far more complicated issue. I suspect that a lot of people will never give up driving until forced to do so.
June 19, 2010 at 3:27 pm #696560
JayDeeParticipantAnother advantage of a monorail is that it can climb hills. Light rail cannot–that’s why the Beacon Hill tunnel was needed along with the future tunnel under Cap Hill. Steel wheels can only climb a certain grade, and in this city our ‘hoods are all hilly (When biking I refer to it as the same 500’ hill repeated in multiple locations). So while the financing for the Monorail was kludgy, the idea of the Monorail was superior for this city and it is a shame it had to die.
June 19, 2010 at 4:01 pm #696561
JoBParticipantHMCRich…
unfortunatley, sound transit does not benefit those who live along it.. those most affected by surface rails have the least access.
check it out.
June 19, 2010 at 5:05 pm #696562
metrognomeParticipantJoB…
unfortunately, a monorail does not benefit those who live under it or past whose 2nd floor window it rushes by.. those most affected by overhead rails have the least access.
check it out.
Like light rail, and unlike buses, monorail stations would have been widely spaced, requiring a long walk or taking a feeder bus. And, no add’l parking would have been provided at stations. It wasn’t widely publicized (I can’t imagine why …) but the monorail would have lidded California Ave from Morgan south the the McD’s for a maintenance facility as that was the end of the line.
Velonut — as required by a variety of laws, city and state projects DO go out for competitive bid; however, their scope is usually so large that there are few firms that can handle them.
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